Cygnar's turning point

[Adolat]

Anybody else read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I sort of agree with the Leto and Vinter argument along the same vein that traitor-warlord Cao Cao was just as successful as the "good guy" Liu Bei (even more so, since his later family established the next dynasty). Liu Bei was a moral leader with virtues, but the chaotic times didn't need a "good guy morals" leader, they needed a guy that got stuff done at any cost, like Cao Cao. It feels like Cygnar's "good guy" approach isn't enough to take back what was theirs for longer than a little bit at a time.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

@Dino: Ok, gotcha. I understand where you're coming from.

@Adolat: On the contrary, Cygnar's good guy approach is the reason Stryker was able to kill to Voyle. I know it's not that simple, and there's more to it. No argument. However, Stryker's whole story arc seems to be a validation of Cygnar's good guy approach. Stryker pokes the bee's nest, bad things happen. Stryker expresses remorse and tires of hate, peace decends on the border. I don't know how realistic that does or ought to feel, but there it is.

[Tevelyn]

uhm... Stryker killed Voyle because Voyle pissed off Menoth by getting narcissitic and trying to fulfil the prophecies ahead of time... Menoth abandoned Voyle to be killed. Stryker didn't win because of heroism, he won because Voyle was a ******-bag and Menoth LET stryker beat him

tev

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Yup. And?

The catalyst was Stryker trying to give back the detained Menites. Menoth then strikes down Voyle as a result of the choices he makes. As I said: there's more to it. But the point is the same. Stryker's story validates the good guy approach.

[Tevelyn]

OK, yea go back and reread the fight between stryker and voyle. Strykers "goodness" had nothing to do with the outcome.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

o.0

Then we're done here.

[Matthaeus]

594 AR Leto Raelthorne succeeds in a coup against King Raelthorne IV. Leto is crowned king of Cygnar.
602 AR The Protectorate of Menoth builds secret factories to produce warjacks.
605 AR Menoth Rebellion begins

Yea... try again Menoth armed for 11 year under Leto before the rebellion began they started AFTER vinter got kicked out and his inquisitors were hunted down.

Actually, the Protectorate had been progressively rearming for roughly a century, with the Crusader chassis being deployed as early as 513 AR.

Not that King Leto demonstrated any political acumen when dealing with the Menites. When they went to gauge the Cygnaran response to their growing belligerence, it appeared that the king was all too willing to negociate for peace instead of enforcing the non-rearmament treaty on the Protectorate. Which led to... an increase in Menite rearmament pace. It's the Munich Agreement in the Iron Kingdoms with Cygnar in the role of the Western European countries.

Defenstrator, the Sul-Menites do have other cities (Sul isn't even the capital any more because it's too close to the border). It's also a bit more complicated than "guns > swords", and for that matter, the zealots have rockets. Finally, they had to launch two simultaneous crusades to retake Sul.

I think everyone agrees that a relatively benevolent regime is more suited to bring its country prosperity than a paranoid dictator, but Leto hasn't exactly a perfect record in terms of foreign policy.

[The Glen]

Huge part of the problem right after each Cygnar victory, we immediately get curb stomped. Usually in a very improbable nature. We crush Khador at the first Battle of Northguard, killing them by the tens of thousands, then their army attacks justa few weeks later and destroys us like the first battle never happened. We break down the walls of Sul and swarm halfway over the city until Stryker gets bonked on the head and suddenly Menoth is invading Caspia and Cygnar is powerless to stop it. Its a formula, we win the first battle and get crushed the next. Sloan takes out a Khador fort, Khador takes out a major Cygnar city.

[Ender101]

I wholly disagree that Vinter was a better king or would be given half a chance again. How many kingdoms do you have to lose before you realize ruling might not be your style. If we compare Vinter's greatest success, the Scharde invasion, we have been told this was an elaborate Cryxian ploy designed to begin their underground (quite literally) complex of bases throughout the thornwood and coast line. he also wanted to invade cryx, because that could have worked. He has executed his top military advisors time again and isolated some of his most capable commanders. He got Magnus to abandon him via tortured for raising an eyebrow at a dumb military plan for Marrow's sake. Vinter is a force of nature, he's a conqueror of the worst kind, one that cannot rule after the battles. Capture him and throw him at the enemy and tranquilizer him afterwards. Killing is about all he's good for overall.

Leto is not a bad king, he is a wholly unlucky one. He saved a nation from self implosion via ousting his brother, and it has been mentioned that he ushered Cygnar into the scientific age and did quite well fixing the economic situation Vinter left behind. He's a capable general and feared swordsman, but in both of these tactical positions he is still Vinter's little brother. Let's not forget that Leto was the war-master general under Vinter, so most of those successes that Vinter gets credit for were delivered by Leto. How many nations could survive the terrible situation Cygnar was forced into?

The Llases invasion was a sneak attack of terrifying proportions, meticulously planned by a man who is generally acknowledged as the greatest military mind of the century, perhaps even the age. The Khadorans also had the back door opened by a treacherous prime minister who gave the victory to Khador, it's arguable that Cygnar could have pushed them back, or at least implied had betrayal at the highest levels not undermined them.

From my understanding plans were also being drawn up to invade the protectorate for their flagrant disregard of the treaties but the Khadoran invasion gave them the perfect opportunity to get that first strike in.

The invasion of Sul should have been text book. The storm division was doing fine until a man impervious to injury and channeling the power of god threw the Universe's biggest monkey wrench into the equation. Cygnar has benefitted from divine intervention, but it's also been punished by it. I would argue we wouldn't have needed the harbingers help had Voyle been on that vacation in the Bahamas.

The first battle for Northguard was a technical win for Cygnar, but little more. The second was an overwhelming loss, partly because re-enforcements were ambushed by Cryx every step of the way, so they arrived too late to flank the attackers.

Point Borne hurts though. I fancy myself an academic, and the loss of the strategic academy is a low blow. Even that was underhandedly won. Not only was our premier warcaster lured away from where she could have done the most good, the Khadorans got played just as badly. Wrath was a major Cryxian coup in the story (I now have a real fear that the next book after colossals we're going to see Cygnar spells on a Cryx caster. Let's here it for sniped pistol wraiths Y~Y).

I don't even think Cygnar has a bad military, if it ever got perform without being ambushed, betrayed or robbed of what should have been victory I think we'd see that.

[bouncymischa]

Anybody else read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I sort of agree with the Leto and Vinter argument along the same vein that traitor-warlord Cao Cao was just as successful as the "good guy" Liu Bei (even more so, since his later family established the next dynasty). Liu Bei was a moral leader with virtues, but the chaotic times didn't need a "good guy morals" leader, they needed a guy that got stuff done at any cost, like Cao Cao. It feels like Cygnar's "good guy" approach isn't enough to take back what was theirs for longer than a little bit at a time.

This reminds me of something I was thinking earlier... Leto is the kind of king you want during peaceful times, and Vinter's the kind of king you need during a war. The problem is that each ended up in the wrong time period for their style of rule... <.<

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, Vinter reminds me of Lu Bu...

[Matthaeus]

Huge part of the problem right after each Cygnar victory, we immediately get curb stomped. Usually in a very improbable nature. We crush Khador at the first Battle of Northguard, killing them by the tens of thousands, then their army attacks justa few weeks later and destroys us like the first battle never happened. We break down the walls of Sul and swarm halfway over the city until Stryker gets bonked on the head and suddenly Menoth is invading Caspia and Cygnar is powerless to stop it. Its a formula, we win the first battle and get crushed the next. Sloan takes out a Khador fort, Khador takes out a major Cygnar city.

Well, as I added in my first post, it took a major Menite uprising to defend Sul, and the way I get it Cryx was involved in the defeat at Northguard (not to mention Irusk was back with his Supreme Kommandant's stripes and very, very eager for a rematch).

[DemonCalibre]

uhm... Stryker killed Voyle because Voyle pissed off Menoth by getting narcissitic and trying to fulfil the prophecies ahead of time... Menoth abandoned Voyle to be killed. Stryker didn't win because of heroism, he won because Voyle was a ******-bag and Menoth LET stryker beat him

tev

Except, Voyle would not have had the option to make the wrong choice, without Stryker returning to himself.

Black Swan Stryker would have killed the Menites, and Voyle would have steamrolled Caspia. Gold Swan Stryker, says "Alright this is pointless, here have your people back, as i return to being a good man", put Voyle in the position where he could make the wrong choice and let his Hubris override his love for Menoth.

Stryker's goodness has a fair amount to do with the Downfall of Voyle, because it set the stage where Voyle could make the wrong choice.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

@ender: I have to ask, which faction do you think isn't dealing with ambushes and/or multiple fronts? Because I've got to tell you, I don't think anyone has escaped those conditions. Hell, Cygnar has better supply lines than anyone else, and more man power. But they continue to find ways to lose.

When the super-elite-best-of-the-best Storm Division failed so utterly on their very first outing I threw up my hands. Fluffy Cygnar is just terrible at war. When they finally win a major battle it won't be through their own virtues, it will be because they tripped into it. They've proven time and again that they do not have what it takes to actually seize a win.

[The Glen]

Considering Cygnar is the only nation with the telegraph, we should have a massive military advantage. Instantaneous communications in time of war should make for the enemy facing large amount of Cygnar troops at every turn. The military fluff doesn't match the war fluff.

[Jake the Dog]

The thing is, in a character driven story for a wargame, when said characters are models for the wargame, they have what many call "plot armor". Due to this plot armor, the actual plot stays at relative stasis. You won't see Cygnar win anything major. You won't see anyone win anything important. Unless PP gets rid of the plot-armor, the war plot won't progress. War usually means death, even for the well known figures in the military.

[The Glen]

Then for Mark III kill them all off, start over and include the past models as historicals. I use characters with plot armor for cover.

[Carrington]

Vinter is coming.

Nice echo from Game of Thrones.

[Defenstrator]

Defenstrator, the Sul-Menites do have other cities (Sul isn't even the capital any more because it's too close to the border). It's also a bit more complicated than "guns > swords", and for that matter, the zealots have rockets. Finally, they had to launch two simultaneous crusades to retake Sul.

They do indeed have other cities. It doesn't change the fact that the entire population of the Protectorate is aprox 1,064,000 while the population of Caspia alone is aprox 1,000,000. Sul has a population of 300,000. Caspia is also the heart of their industrial might, is connected to the rest of the nation with a road system and railwya, is the seat of the government, and the seat of the Morrowen church. And they can't take Sul? Really? When they've already knocked down the walls, have better weapons, and their supply line to all their material is a 20 minute walk across a bridge that they hold?

Plot armour. Otherwise Sul is burned to the ground with the menites own flammable weapons. Reckoners, Redeemers, Repenters and Vanquishers aren't nearly so much fun when you have to use them in your own city.

[leo_neil316]

This reminds me of something I was thinking earlier... Leto is the kind of king you want during peaceful times, and Vinter's the kind of king you need during a war. The problem is that each ended up in the wrong time period for their style of rule... <.<

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, Vinter reminds me of Lu Bu...

Lu-Bu the most powerful warrior of his age who so utterly sucked at everything that wasn't 'hit people with pointy thing' that he basically rolled around, stomped a couple of people, declared himself in charge and then got ousted when everyone realised he sucked at ruling?

Yup. Seems fair to me.

EDIT: Sorry, there should have been a 'stabbed his alies in the back' between 'rolled around' and 'stomped a couple of people'

[Temoinlanuit]

Anybody else read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I sort of agree with the Leto and Vinter argument along the same vein that traitor-warlord Cao Cao was just as successful as the "good guy" Liu Bei (even more so, since his later family established the next dynasty). Liu Bei was a moral leader with virtues, but the chaotic times didn't need a "good guy morals" leader, they needed a guy that got stuff done at any cost, like Cao Cao. It feels like Cygnar's "good guy" approach isn't enough to take back what was theirs for longer than a little bit at a time.

What... Vinter is nothing like Cao Cao. He would be a lot more similar to Lu Bu. Cao Cao was a brilliant mind and tactician, skilled at recognizing and using talent. Keep in mind that "virtue" in that age was largely defined by ancestry. Liu Bei was considered virtuous largely because he could trace his ancestry to the imperial dynasty, while Cao Cao was a talented person of low birth (minister bloodline). Anyone who controlled the emperor at that time would have used him as a figurehead, including Liu Bei (consider that he declared himself emperor of Shu under the banner of continuing the Han).. and remember that Cao Cao never deposed the emperor, it was his son who did it and enshrined his father posthumously to deflect criticism from himself.

Also, Liu Bei shouldn't be considered a hero, either from historical basis (SGZ) or even a novel basis (SGYY). If you look at actions rather than words, what do we have?

(1) Betrayed both Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao
(2) Stole Jing province while allied with Wu
(2) Persuaded Cao Cao to kill Lu Bu (remember that Lu Bu saved Liu Bei's life)
(4) Betrayed Liu Biao as well as Liu Zhang, when Liu Bei had no territory

That's only off the top of my head, there's a ton of other stuff. Liu Bei is an incredibly overhyped figure (in SGYY) and the minor role of Shu itself is made much clearer in SGZ. It has little to do the 3K period not needing a "virtuous" leader, but really that Shu was not that important a player at all.