So what do we want/need

[gaminguy]

Yeah. Unlike Winterguard, Kayazy, Iron Fangs, Praet Swordsmen, Striders, Fennblades, and every other unit that has a UA. In all honesty, it's a RARE UA that doesn't ALWAYS get fielded with it's unit. UA's just make the units better, simple as. I really can't think of a UA that isn't always fielded when the points are available.... (don't derail the thread, I'm just saying).

And really, granted Gang and that mini feat is quite tame compared to what some UA's offer...

Aw, please? Vorkesh soooooo wants a word.

People need to keep in mind That while gators dont have a ready answer to high armor MINIONS do. Minions is actually quite a well done faction if you play both in your steamrollers. You have an answer for just about everything minus Kayazy. Gators dont need a ps 5004504930584 Beast because thornfall covers that.

You need to look at this from its balancing point. Minions is a faction. Blindwater Congregation and Thornfall alliance are PACTS in a larger faction and not factions themselves. Each pact will never have an answer for all of life's issues because each one part of a larger whole.

Also as i stated in the OP. This is a thread about what minions need, Not what your individual caster/pact needs to be dominate. Look at it from a Faction perspective.

That's a nice thought, but I tend to want to build all-comers lists and neither pact can really do that.

That's not true really, Farrow deal with armor and can spam AoEs fairly effectivey. Gators actually have some options too on the form of Parasite and Malediction, the Thullig to strip defensive upkeeps, and a whole lot of ability to bypass armor and go for the juicy center of the other army. More options period would be nice for both pacts though. What I'd really like is access to Lanyssa; I don't care about Brun or the snake charmer but access to Hunter's Mark would be huge for either pact.

[TheLoki]

I've always wondered why we have been denied access to choice in our own book. Always struck me as odd.

As for list building i'm always in the steamroller mindset so i take a pig and a gator list.

[Benejeseret]

From a faction overall perspective:

I agree that having both pigs and gators to switch out would be the best direct approach to the faction at steamrollers etc, but is hard on my wallet. More-over, they have such separate themes and forces that I'm not a fan of the disconnect (even rivalry) and would rather buy into and cheer for one force.

So, what I would really like to see would be for PP to either by fluff, rules re-writes, or future pact release blur those lines a little and give me a reason to want both to succeed in the world of IK. They seems to have gotten wrapped up trying to make two factions, but got stuck half-way, and are now bound and limited by past issues.

For example: the Bone Grinders will work for any Hordes faction, except Blindwater, but will work for Calaban, but not Barnabus/Maelok.....whuuut?

Let me play a caster legally in games and tourney...not as a Theme list...maybe not even as a Pact...just as the caster. And let him hire Minions. If for some reason Pacts mean something in the legal mumbo-jumbo of the IK world then just publish a Pact that allows rather than limits. Maybe a shaky truce that Carver agreed to with the gators. Or better yet (since as mentioned PP for whatever reason crapped all over playing Pacts) give every Minion Warlock assess to one collective alternative Theme List.

Pact - Meat and Money
Pact Benefit: Limit to anything from Minions = can take anything (ANYTHING!) from Minions (its a write-off to balance choice but no benefit)
If 3 or more species are included, Pact gets +1 point to spend on Army above limit per species above 2.

Or

Theme - Animosity

Tier 1: Limit to anything Thornfall or Blindwater can take = benefit one non-warlock model/unit from Thornfall and one non-warlock model/unit from Blindwater pushes ahead to try to get there first (advance move), SPECIAL=The army can take Saxon AND Pendrake
Tier 2: The army includes Saxon AND Pendrake = They gain the ability to Frenzy like a warbeast and do so if within each others COMMAND range
Tier 3: The army includes models with the ability to collect soul/corpse tokens or cast Bone Magic (grinders)= After deployment but before first turn, can remove models from opposing Pact and add tokens to models up to models' limits. During any activation, Bone Grinders can Maltreat (1d3 damage) any warbeast to cast its animus as an action.
Tier 4: The army includes 3 or more warbeasts = During a Frenzy will ignore same-pact models.


The cost to PP = salary cost of an employee to write-up better rules the the trash I just made up (although I like Animosity) and 1/2 a page space in next appropriate book. Maybe a bit more to add some Fluff to bring it together.

Benefit to PP = myself and likely a number of other Minions players would buy models from opposing Pact. I alone would likely immediately buy between $100-200 of models that otherwise I will not. So, my purchase alone would afford 3-5 hours of a writer's time. No sculpting or production costs, just write a point-form Theme or Pact entry and profit.


**EDIT: Just realized that suggested Tier 3 would automatically disqualify all Thornfall caster-lead armies...like I said, trash. So pay someone better qualified. I will attempt to edit.

[gaminguy]

I've always wondered why we have been denied access to choice in our own book. Always struck me as odd.

As for list building i'm always in the steamroller mindset so i take a pig and a gator list.

The reason that didn't happen to Mercs is that contracts are designed according to who can take the mercs and there's no one I can think of that won't work for Cygnar and won't work for Khaydor. (Except Cephalix.)

Minion pacts are closer to theme forces, so there's some stuff in the book that neither can use. Lanyssa kind of makes sense fluff-wise there; she's looking for ways to strike back at Everblight IIRC, neither minion pact has enough resources to be a threat and Arcadius has had dealings with them. She'd also be a significant jump in power for either pact, moreso for blindwater. (The Wrastler can only make three attacks at P+S 17 if you have to charge and still be open for transfers, that's surprisingly light.) There isn't anything stopping PP from puting together other pacts or tiers that allowed cross-pact options and things that are totally non-minion, but for fluff reasons I don't see them doing it. Each of the pacts represents efforts by powerful individuals to forge their respective species into nations, having faction options show up in minion pacts is something of a dilution of that, with a few potential exceptions.

The current setup does have the advantage of preventing Searforge syndrom as well; literally everything that Searforge can take is also available to Highborn (except possibly Brun, I don't have my book handy to check) so there isn't a reason outside of fluff for Searforge to exist. Minions have been designed from very close the beginning with the pacts in mind so one will never encapsulate another like that.

[TheLoki]

yea I'm aware of all of this. I meant it more as wishful thinking then an inquiry. Just sucks that the most ubiquitous ranged unit in the game is unavailable to minions while being minions themselves =(.


As for your assessment of the wrastler i agree 100%. I'm hoping we get another combat heavy next book. Now that the initial gloss of the wrastler has worn off i have to say i dislike the beast quite a bit and would love to shelf him.

[MagnustheJust]

The reason that didn't happen to Mercs is that contracts are designed according to who can take the mercs and there's no one I can think of that won't work for Cygnar and won't work for Khaydor. (Except Cephalix.)

Brun & Lug and Dahlia & Skarath. They both have the Mercenary tag, but will not work for Big Red or the electric chicken...

[MagnustheJust]

The current setup does have the advantage of preventing Searforge syndrom as well; literally everything that Searforge can take is also available to Highborn (except possibly Brun, I don't have my book handy to check) so there isn't a reason outside of fluff for Searforge to exist. Minions have been designed from very close the beginning with the pacts in mind so one will never encapsulate another like that.

With the exception of the OAC, and the two Horgenhold units - arty & Forgeguard, the rest of the Stunties will also work for Khador, so are usable in Four-Star contracts.

[gaminguy]

Nyss Hunters are in the same boat as Lanyssa; no reason to show up and some good fluff reasons not to. I get the distinct impression that the minion pacts are meant to be more fluff-driven (rather like the pirate contracts) so they've tended to go with "would this character have a reason to work with these emerging powers" as the deciding question on what the pacts can take, and I think that makes a certain amount of sense.

[Vex]

How about this:

A light beast with Primal.
A warlock with Scything Touch.
A heavy beast with 5 Fury.
A solo that does Fury management.