Snapshot warlocks

**Southern Troll** · 05-03-2012, 06:25 AM

So I have read multiple times about Borka becoming the next epic. How he should ride a buffalo, etc. I just wanted to take a moment and chime in with my thoughts and see what the community thinks.
I was recently introduced to the concept of "snapshot" warlocks by a PG-er (read: Devilsquid) when we were discussing outside the box thinking as well as typical troll tactics and such things. What is a snapshot? It is, simply put, a warlock that will never go epic. These are casters that do not have a major role in the WM/H storyline and, though special in their own way, I cannot forsee them evolving into anything beyond what they are. For example:

Gunnbjorn- He has been introduced as a support element for Grissel, but hasn't really done anything spectacular in the story. I do not think that he ever will. I feel that this caster is what he is and does not need to evolve. Simply put, there are more important characters that we will see change and contribute to the future of trolls than this cygnar trained warlock.

Calandra- Similar to Gunnbjorn. Also a support character that contributes little to the actual story other than taking care of refugees and such in the background. Again, I see no reason for this to change. She fits well here.

Borka- He travels with madrak as a drinking buddy and to fight. That basically all he does is get tanked and smash stuff. No soul searching, no cursed weapon, no reluctantly being placed into a role of leadership. At no point do I see him being placed on a buffalo. Sorry, just doesn't fit his style of running up and smashing people in my opinion. Can his role change and he become more significant, sure. Will it, doubtful because there are other more pivotal characters that come before this massive troll with a sweet named mace.

Grim- He has been actively fighting and seems to be evolving into a more pivotal character, but i think this is misleading and Grim will remain as is. His story is interesting, different, but doesn't leave alot of room for him to be a major player unless he changes his way of fighting and thinking. He is a mercenary, not a general.

Jarl- Obviously too early to tell. He has potential to be a major player, but may also suffer from the same issues Grim has. We will have to wait and see what PP does with him in the story.

Doomshaper- This is one of 3 'locks that will be constantly evolving and adding to the story, as has been shown on the past. I think Doomshaper will eventually, not immediately, become one of our epic3 locks.

Grissel- Also a key player. This needs little more explaining. She will also be another lock we will all see as epic3.

Madrak- pretty much a given that this dude will be epic3.

Just my thoughts.

**PG_Sobek** · 05-03-2012, 06:49 AM

Despite his own eventual goals for the Trollkin peoples, I have to admit that, of all our warlocks, Gunny is probably the least likely to go Epic. In my mind anyway. Why? He's one of the only casters we have that I don't see changing/evolving much personally even if his goals are successful in establishing a truely modern/effective Troll military. Even if he succeeds, I can see him still being the 'same old Gunny'.

**razcalking** · 05-03-2012, 07:00 AM

I could see either Grim/Jarl giving up their loner ways to become a bigger part of the movement.

**Jherb5000** · 05-03-2012, 07:39 AM

Actually after reading the cryx faction book the character malathrax, is the most interesting Lich lord in the whole army and there isn't even a model for him. To top it off the whole story in the faction book involves him, so you really never know who could become the next epic. I can really fathom what they would do to the non epics that would fit in the fluff and still be believable.

**PG_thegreatblah** · 05-03-2012, 07:42 AM

I would love to see Grim go epic, don't know that it is feasable. But having him evolve would be awesome as he is one of my favorites.

As far as epic3 is concerned I think it's pretty much a nobrainer that it is going to be Madrak or Doomshaper, though technically Grissel is in the mix too.

**The Happy Anarchist** · 05-03-2012, 08:09 AM

I think you are missing something key. You have listed those casters as they are now, before they have had an impetus to change. Nothing much would have changed with a lot of casters, until something does.

Gunnbjorn - suffers a crushing defeat in the defense of a fortress and comes to believe trolls must adapt to a blitzkrieg offense instead of trying to fortify.

Calandra - something terrible happens to one of her charges, or one of her divinations is manipulated by Skarre. She realizes instead of living with fates, she can use them like a weapon, and again switches from protector to aggressor.

Borka I have a hard time figuring out what would change for him. Not impossible, but I do find it extremely amusing that you don't think riding a buffalo fits his "charge in and smash things" - when that is pretty much the only thing the Buffalo do is charge in and smash things.

Grim having some reason to get more personally involved - however that is the reason he got involved in the first place. Better - picking up a specific vendetta that moves him more towards a ranged assassin or super-solo type caster. Having him draw apart from the United Kriels a bit more and become even more of a loner.

Jarl has a lot of places he can go.

More over than the fluff possibilities, the gameplay possibilities are also something to consider. It is not difficult to figure out some life changing event to change a characters fluff. I am more interested in what ways they can make a caster that feels similar, while playing different. That is still recognizably character X, while having a whole different flavor or playstyle.

**Jherb5000** · 05-03-2012, 08:28 AM

Loving the gunbjorn idea! Keep going

**PG_Sobek** · 05-03-2012, 10:25 AM

Borka can easily evolve by just enrolling with Rok in AA.

**Da-Rock** · 05-03-2012, 10:43 AM

Coming up with a change to each and every Warlock for Trollbloods won't be an issue and to be honest I don't see the fluff being the driving force behind PP's choice to go "Epic".

I would think popularity and how well it will sell and push sales of other models would be a factor......not the only factor, but a driving force.

**PG_machine007** · 05-03-2012, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Sobek

Borka can easily evolve by just enrolling with Rok in AA.

I don't know if finger foods wil be enough for RoK though

**Cleavelander** · 05-03-2012, 10:07 PM

I keep teasing myself into believing that The Mountain King is actually Doomshaper3.0 . Of course he's not, but a boy can dream.

**Goris** · 05-03-2012, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Sobek

Borka can easily evolve by just enrolling with Rok in AA.

AA is for quitters, and Borka doesn't quit.

**Jota** · 05-03-2012, 11:53 PM

I think Grim could evolve, he has started to change as in leaving his bounty hunter life and working for the Kriels survival. That evolution could continue, the "snapshot" as far could be just that - a moment in time when he on his way to evolve even more. He one of the two true albinos after all and hopefully he is going to tap into the power of Dhunia even more. Making him a stalking/sniping/alphastriking Fury 8 beastlock could be nice..

**PG_machine007** · 05-04-2012, 12:27 AM

Well our third is either going to be 2+ models or a large based.

I am pretty sure throughout all the thread so far, the most likely of our candidates would EMadrak on a buffalo or EDoomshaper evolving moreso into a dire troll, getting even bigger.

In terms of our new epic, its really a tossoup. Borka's been hanging out with Maddy and Doomshaper, and something could always happen there. Grim could do something awesome on the next book too with the kriels that got pushed up north. However, both of them are actually giving up their normal lifestyle in order to help the kriels, so that really is not a fair argument. I think its a fair tossup. If anything, Calandra could also epic since she has really done quite a bit towards the kriel's future. We won't know till probably 2 NQs from now at the minimum.

On another note. With us having the first revealed gargantuan, we may very well be in the possiblity of being first in line for something for once. I am keeping my fingers crossed. With a month prior to the book for the colossals, its not outside the realm of possiblity for a september or october release.

All speculation.

**hackdZ** · 05-04-2012, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Jota

I think Grim could evolve, he has started to change as in leaving his bounty hunter life and working for the Kriels survival. That evolution could continue, the "snapshot" as far could be just that - a moment in time when he on his way to evolve even more. He one of the two true albinos after all and hopefully he is going to tap into the power of Dhunia even more. Making him a stalking/sniping/alphastriking Fury 8 beastlock could be nice..

Yes please! +1, would love to see Grim go epic.

**Jherb5000** · 05-04-2012, 04:10 AM

A karchiev style EDommy... That would put us at the top of the food chain...

**jdripley** · 05-04-2012, 04:41 AM

I'd rather see e3Doomshaper (is that the correct notation?) come with an attached warbeast than to be on a large base. The large based warcasters/warlocks are all fairly tanky. From a rules perspective you just can't have such a key model on a large base without giving it a way to be safe from long ranged attacks. See Karchev, Darius, Terminus for examples. Doomshaper is a caster-type, he doesn't really fit the tanky thing.

We haven't heard anything from Madrak in a while, my prediction is that he's next. Not Grissel because she just went epic herself. Doomshaper's character is reactionary to Madrak. Madrak sets the tone for the Kriels, and Doomshaper reacts by having a more-or-less compatible splinter following that advocates for more anger and violence. So we need Madrak to change, and then Doomshaper will follow.

re: Borka and not changing.... well Borka's pretty much perfect already, I'm not sure how he could improve! My only thought is perhaps if he embraced his position as a Shaman of Dhunia a little bit more and traded some of his raw power for some buffing abilities, ala the Kriel Warrior Shaman. I'm just not convinced that it would be "better" that way.

**PG_machine007** · 05-04-2012, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by jdripley

I'd rather see e3Doomshaper (is that the correct notation?) come with an attached warbeast than to be on a large base. The large based warcasters/warlocks are all fairly tanky. From a rules perspective you just can't have such a key model on a large base without giving it a way to be safe from long ranged attacks. See Karchev, Darius, Terminus for examples. Doomshaper is a caster-type, he doesn't really fit the tanky thing.

Darius is a medium base. Harbinger, Rasheth and Kraye are all large based, and none are considered tanky. Doomshaper is not without the realm of possiblity.

**kneemus** · 05-04-2012, 12:45 PM

Epic Grim, ROFx2 on Headhunter, that's all I ask........

**Beckman** · 05-05-2012, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by kneemus

Epic Grim, ROFx2 on Headhunter, that's all I ask........

All I ask for is pDenny's feat and Parasite. With an arcnode.

Completely reasonable.

**zor** · 05-05-2012, 02:09 PM

If Doomshaper were to go epic I believe we would see him reconnect a little bit with the infantry of the kriels once again. He was a 100% beast lock in his 2nd incarnation and a solid denial/support lock in his first incarnation. Consider that with the connection with the Colossals that Dhunia has granted Doomshaper more connection with Runeshaping and the arts of Rock. So he has to potential to support all Trolls better with that ability and become a little bit more spellslingy. Gain some in faction arc nodes either by a new model release, multi-model epic or just as a new interaction with existing models. He's got to show that his loyalties still lay with the Kriels, and that would be a solid way to do so.

Madrak will likely go epic, and very possibly on the back of a Tuffalo. He and Horthol have had a very close relationship and even in these grim times taking to cavalry may be the answer. I see him getting a feat similar eThagrosh /eStryker, where friendly models can make a full advance and get a single melee attack. Then toss on his spell list last stand, get surefoot back, and then keep killing ground or get dash. Solid 3 spell list, go speed 7, keep 5 fury, and be based around blitzy multi-wound tuffalo armies. That would make me happy.

Considering the drive of all of the Troll warlocks, any of them could easily go epic based upon the story. If something big happens to either Doomy or Madrak then any of the other 'locks could be driven to step up and take up more responsibility. That was Grissel's situation and all it will take is a driving force to unite the kriels and keep Troll power in the world to a maximum. Thats my take.

Oh and Madrak for President.

**RiTides** · 05-06-2012, 10:36 AM

This is a great thread...

Personally, I'd love anything than a normal-size-based warlock. Madrak or Borka on Buffalo, Doomshaper with a larger troll... anything!

I had not heard the term "snapshot" warlock before, but that makes a lot of sense, too.

**PG_Sobek** · 05-07-2012, 04:03 AM

Honestly, I think it'd be kind of neat if γMadrak was a multi-model model. Him and the spirits of previous wielders of the World Ender (minus Tartarus, of course).

**Impostor** · 05-09-2012, 04:08 AM

I think that mere appearance of Rök is PP's preparation move for Borka to go epic.

**SOUPlex** · 05-09-2012, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Impostor

I think that mere appearance of Rök is PP's preparation move for Borka to go epic.

Cygnar said the sake thing with Triumph and Marcus Brisbane....hasn't happened yet.

Also, Sobek's idea would kick so much butt if those weren't the only 2 to wield it (or so I believe.)

**MetaphoricDragon** · 05-09-2012, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Southern Troll

Gunnbjorn- He has been introduced as a support element for Grissel, but hasn't really done anything spectacular in the story. I do not think that he ever will. I feel that this caster is what he is and does not need to evolve. Simply put, there are more important characters that we will see change and contribute to the future of trolls than this cygnar trained warlock.

I am definitely of the mind that, just because they haven't starred in the fluff recently, does not mean there are not more stories that could be told. Since Gunnbjorn was the model that got me interested in trolls I will use him as an example, 2 routes he could take off top of my head:

The cygnar route, he gets promoted, we get a General Gunnbjorn, who reaches his dream of forming a cohesive army, The Kriels have had enough, they have claimed the land outside Ios as their own, and this time they are not going to let anyone push them off, even with the Skorne bearing down on them. Perhaps even representing a defensive alliance with the Elves.

Alternatively, what if the military man gets absolutely crushed in defeat, he is injured, his army broken and scattered, and he finds himself abandoned, tool-less in the wild? How might he adapt and evolve to survive? We could find a more beast oriented wild caster, we could get a more guerrilla warfare, brutal caster. a fair amount of options.

**theflyingdutchman59** · 05-09-2012, 08:36 AM

Because he's the hero the Kriel deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a loud guardian. A watchful protector. A Dunk Knight.

personally i thnk he just oozes charater and potenial to go father then he is now. sure he started off fighting cuase he liked to, but now he needs to.
from my readings, it looks like you have to have a near death/death to go epic. i can easyliy see this happening to Borka.

**autooth** · 05-09-2012, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by theflyingdutchman59

Because he's the hero the Kriel deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a loud guardian. A watchful protector. A Dunk Knight.

Best thing I have read today so far

**wargrim** · 05-09-2012, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by theflyingdutchman59

from my readings, it looks like you have to have a near death/death to go epic.

Nemo, Doomshaper, Maddrak, Severius, Makeda, Morghoul want to disagree.

**theflyingdutchman59** · 05-09-2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by autooth

Best thing I have read today so far

thank you, i get about one good jem a day. does any one know if they can make this into a sig??

**WiLDRAGE** · 05-09-2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by wargrim

Nemo, Doomshaper, Maddrak, Severius, Makeda, Morghoul want to disagree.

While I agree that near-death experiences are not required, a case could be made for Doomshaper getting punched by Mulg as being such a thing.

Madrak is the obvious choice for the first Legendady (Epic Epic?) as far as I'm concerned. Rathrok has been awakened for a while now and either Madrak manages to control it or it completely overtakes him. For Doomshaper, I foresee his role in the next book as the one that directly wakes/summons the Mountain Kings.

As for who goes regular Epic, I would like it to be either Grim or Gunnbjorn. I feel both have a lot to offer story-wise.

**PG_thegreatblah** · 05-09-2012, 10:24 AM

I foresee either Borka or Grim going Epic and Madrak going epic2. Call it a hunch, I'd be suprised if any of our newer casters go epic (i.e. Gunnbjorn, Jarl) or even the semi new casters like Calandra going epic.

**zor** · 05-09-2012, 10:37 AM

Borka will go epic. There's no doubt. He's in the main troll storyline arc right now and very popular. No doubt. Doomy and Madrak will be a hard fought decision on who is more deserving of the upgrade right now. I think Madrak will go first as his arc is highly influential to all of the Trolls and even some of the other races. Add in the recent Grimmr epic poem in NQ and you've got enough highlighting of a character and his arc to see what will come to fruition.

**Arizona_Troll** · 05-09-2012, 11:41 AM

I have always assumed that Madrak will have a new epic first since he's always sort of been the iconic Trollblood warlock. I love Madrak (both versions), so I wouldn't be unhappy if this happens, but then we have the Mountain King coming out and it seems like the perfect opportunity for an advancing storyline for Doomshaper. I think my money's still on Madrak, but the Mountain King release has made me only 60% sure whereas before I saw the Mountain King I was more like 90% sure it would be Madrak.

(Just for the record I want it to be Doomshaper, but I think it will be Madrak.)

**Urathave** · 05-09-2012, 11:46 AM

I want to see madrak go e2 but I think it will be Doomie. My reasoning is that I don't believe any other of the battle box casters went e2 so far. Just a thought to rattle around.

**zor** · 05-09-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Urathave

I want to see madrak go e2 but I think it will be Doomie. My reasoning is that I don't believe any other of the battle box casters went e2 so far. Just a thought to rattle around.

Kreoss went 2pic.

**PG_thegreatblah** · 05-09-2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by zor

Borka will go epic. There's no doubt. He's in the main troll storyline arc right now and very popular. .

I'm not following you, Borka hasn't been mentioned since he took off with Doomy and Madrak. Since then the main Storyline has followed Grissel mostly.

**ryanbo724** · 05-09-2012, 12:58 PM

I love Borka's model and his rule set. Fluff wise, I find him to be sophomoric and stupid. I just see it as a ruse to pull in idiots who think drunks are funny and tough.

I love the man with no name aspect of Grim. The soft spoken hero who kicks a ton of *** and would love to see him be our next Epic. He still is my favorite character and model in all of Hordes. Grim to me speaks more to how the Kriels feel as a people - alone, back against the wall, fighting for their lives. Borka's just looking to hit people with his mace because its fun.

**zor** · 05-09-2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by thegreatblah

I'm not following you, Borka hasn't been mentioned since he took off with Doomy and Madrak. Since then the main Storyline has followed Grissel mostly.

Borka took off with Doomy and Madrak, and yes its been talking about Grissel in Dom and such since she is at home, but the main story arc is definitely what Doomy, Madrak and Borka are up to. Grissel just went epic and it tied into the story of Domination. The travels of the dudes will be what drives the Troll section of the gargantuan book, because the story of the three of those characters means quite a bit to the fate of the Trolls, and no one but them can/will be able to make the story of the Mountain King come to fruition.

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