Legion Hate

[Tanglethorn]

Im sure this has already come up in the past, but I never realized how much hate there is against Legion.

I've recently started collecting and playing Legion because I loved the lore and the look of the models. Never in my mind would I realize that they are one of the most played and complained about factions in both rules sets (Hordes and WM). It gets to the point other players will come over and actually show my opponent how to win against me, while I get no help and struggle through the game. I'm fairly new and I still lose more games than I win, so sometimes I get a little aggravated when I come across this.

Hell, I'll be straight up. If I knew there would be this much negativity, I would have picked a totally different faction just so I could play friendlier games with other people. I'm into the game to socialize and meet cool people, but sometimes I think my faction gets in the way.

Has anyone else come across any similar experiences? Should I just change directions now and start getting into another faction?

[themocaw]

I think the problem isn't in your choice of faction so much that the people at your store are feminine hygiene products.

[PG_Vynde]

I have to agree with themocaw.. my gaming group jokes around that i win only because i play legion(i've proved them wrong ) but i know they are kidding. This seems like more of a problem of playing with A holes >.<

[Tanglethorn]

The problem is really not as bad as I'm making it, but there is definitely a sense of "Ugh, I really hate playing legion" to "I'm really going to kick your *** because your playing legion".

Maybe I'm being sensitive and some of it is in jest. Ive noticed that Cryx sometimes gets the same amount of flak as well.

Still it might be worth getting a 2nd faction just to get a break from the legion hate.

[PG_Vynde]

I get a good bit of flak, its all in jest at my store. But i've also played a different faction and still beat people, so it died down after i did that

[themocaw]

Play Farrow as a second faction, then no one will complain about cheese.

[rivenwyrm]

I played Khador only for a year, a full on year, and no one ever really made comments about my faction except for Iron Flesh. I have a pretty good reputation at the store, as a nice guy and a solid player. We don't really have another consistent Legion player. But as soon as I moved to Legion, I started getting a lot of "So how do you like Legion?" It's mostly friendly, but I can tell there's a bit of "So, how's that OP nonsense workin' out for ya?" in there, even though we don't have any Legion players (except at our tourneys) running around terrorizing us. I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Be a nice guy, play your games precisely, make sure to start a game by explaining roughly what all your stuff does so you don't catch someone by surprise with something. I make a point of asking my opponent to carefully read my caster's cards before the match and sometimes before they attempt to any kind of assassination.

I'm sympathetic, it's very easy for people to form a mental block and decide that Legion is crazy and anyone who plays it must be a power-gamer. Respond with courtesy and solid play. They'll come around.

Also, you can legitimately ask people to offer their advice only at the end of the match, rather than during it. Phrase it as "I'm pretty new to this game, and I'm still learning, so having everyone chime in constantly makes it hard to concentrate. If you guys have comments, we'd both be glad to hear them after the game." You may find that your opponents are as annoyed by their constant "input" as you are.

[Seferon]

I can honestly say that i don't get a whole lot of flak about playing legion. Sure, there is the occasional "Ugh Legion, or No, i don't want to play against Legion right now." A majority of those players are the players that do not play competitively and haven't been playing the game for more then a year or two. I often find myself playing against people who have been playing the game since MK 1 more then people who started in MK 2. This is fine with me as you tend to learn more things when you face players who have played for longer. They are also the players who don't tend to complain about Legion outside of the friendly joking.

The people i do play that are kinda new to the game are people that i've played other games with. For example, if your shop is big into board gaming, try to play games with the players that play board games. Build a friendship with those players and they wont mind playing against you nearly as much. Also, if the big problem you are getting is from people who are helping the other player to win, just look at them and tell them that what they are doing is illegal in a tournament environment and that they would be DQed from the tournament right now. This may not work on the casual gamers but if they are helping the other player to win, then they know what they are doing is wrong.

[Neutralyze]

I take the blame for it all

[regleant]

I take the blame for it all

You've completely ruined the faction for the rest of us.

Legion is my 2nd faction, (Menoth as my first), and I admit it is "easy mode" when it comes to learning the faction and being forgiving of tactical mistakes on the battlefield. That's part of the reason I went to it. But every faction takes skill to routinely perform well.

In reality, every faction has something you can complain about, something that is overpowered, and something you can whine right back at your opponents.

But if it's really enough to make you quit the faction, then whatever you do, don't start Cryx.

[slinkdawg]

The factions all hate each other and have a certain amount of "your cheese is overpowered but mine is ok" syndrome.

Cygnar was my first faction. Many people hate cygnar too.

And I just love playing against a bunch of net decked Khador and cryx lists, that never gets old. (sarcasm font)

[Alexwheeler]

but I never realized how much hate there is against Legion

ppl at my LGS always ask which faction i brought today b/c they dont like me playing legion, so they all have they're "anti" legion armies. all incorporeal army (not too many anymore, thanks HH's!) all immune to fire armies ex ex.... just in my last tourny i made a menoth, yes a menoth player quit b/c i bottom of turn 1 killed his caster (evayl). but other factions can do the dame thing, as others have said ppl are riding the "your faction is OP and my sucks" boat and keep buying and selling factions b/c they still think something else is better.

P.S. i love those guys, cheep why to start another faction

It gets to the point other players will come over and actually show my opponent how to win against me, while I get no help and struggle through the game.

this is a house rule at my LGS i just love and most likely i wouldnt play there if they didnt have it. when two ppl are playing a game u do not give advise or correct someone if they made a poor move. you let the game run its course then after wards you point out where they went wrong what what should have happened. only ruling and other game play wrong doings can be pointed out, mainly by the ones who are playing.

now if someone is learning to play and wants to play against someone who has experience then the one they are playing against should point out how to beat him. b/c hey its a friendly game and your teaching him. but at the same time he doesnt need 2 3 or even more ppl all trying to talk over one another to help him win. he wont learn that way.

giving options and pointers help newbies learn, plan and simple.

[gelfy]

I take the blame for it all

HAHA i miss the Legion forums. Trolling isnt cried upon here like the cygnar forums.

[Obeisance]

Man, you haven't felt hate until you've been a Cryx player. The internet is full of people whining like little girls with skinned knees. Legion gets it's share of whiners too, due to the fact Eyeless Sight screws people up.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this.

People cry and make excuses when they lose. Responses like "grow a pair", "learn to play" and "you're the one with the P+S 22 Stalker." are appropriate.

Just ignore the haters.

edit:

Also, showing less experienced players how to win is actually a good thing. You increase their skill level and force yourself to adapt new strategies. I always analyze my play when I lose.

[katadder]

I take the blame for it all

you really have to start taking a new faction to tourneys before MK3 or we will be nerfed back to the stone age

[PG_ICleadpeople]

You should start playing eLylyth and Searyn as your main casters then let everyone know you are going to pick up Cryx as a second faction. This should help with the complaints.

[Ikuinen Kaamos]

There is always a faction in every game system that is the target of complains. Legion happens to be the one in hordes.

Also where I play nobody knows about tournament results and that stuff, so I think the reason of the 'whining' is because of all the dirty tricks we have and all the rules we ignore.

Still in my area is more of a joke than actual hate, we just laugh about it. But you do notice that the whol club kinda cheers when a legion player loses :P

[Bahamut]

I played Cryx for years. Once you learn to feed on the hate you'll be fine

[Zato]

I don't play Legion, but I play Cryx. So I know how the hate tastes. Just let it sustain you, and feed upon it's awesome powers. No, but seriously. Legion IS powerful, but are they OP? No. The same goes for Cryx. I love playing against Legion, but that's mostly since our local Legion-player is both a really great person AND player. I hate when people go into a "your army is OP and that's the only reason you win"-mode. I may have done it a few times myself back in the days and I actually feel bad for it. But yeah, it's easier to blame the opponents army for being OP than to realize that maybe you did something wrong, or even worse: admit that your opponent played a really solid match.

[Murkhadh]

I take the blame for it all

Everyone should just tell the people hating "Look this is all Neutralyze's fault, go yell at him"

[Big_Blue_Trolls]

You people should go to the Trollblood section. Many people complain about how OP "Tough" is.

[Nargacuga]

Menoth is my 2nd faction, and gets its fair share of hate as well. People whine and complain that they can't do X, Y, or Z because of the Choir, Vassel, Book, Feats, Spells, or w/e...

In my experience, the hate list looks something like this: (from least hated to most)

1. Mercs
2. Minions
3. Khador
4. Retribution
5. Skorne
6. Cygnar
7. Trollbloods
8. Circle
9. Menoth
10. Legion
11. Cryx

[bouncymischa]

I'm tempted to start up a thread in the General Discussion forum, just to ask people how bad they think faction disparity is. And, it must be admitted, there will always be faction disparity -- no game is ever perfectly balanced, and in a game as complex as this one, there will always be someone who has a competitive advantage, whether its in the strategies available to them or the capabilities and cost-efficiency of their models. The real question is, is the disparity between factions enough that player skill matters more than faction choice? There's also the counterpoint -- if, at the top levels of the game, all players are of equal skill, does faction disparity then come into play? If you have a Retribution player and a Legion player of equal skill, does the Legion player have an inherent advantage due to their faction? I know there are some people that have commented that, when it comes to a tournament and they want to win, they'll pick the faction they win with most out of the various ones that they play -- but even this may be more of a reflection of "how well does this faction suit me as a player" vs. "how inherently powerful is this faction?"...

I'm inclined to believe that the factions are close enough together that player skill can outweigh any inherent faction advantages or disadvantages, but there are some compelling arguments to suggest that as you get higher in skill level, faction choice starts to matter more. At the very least, it would be interesting to ask some of the more skilled tournament players why they choose to play the factions they do in highly competitive events...

[SteampunkWino]

I play Cryx and Legion, I get drown in the sighing and head shaking. The last two games of our current league with my Cryx I've had to fight the player and his coach. The coach was always a self appointed position. It does get old. Just push through it.

I have been known to ask my opponent if they would rather we just all play the same exact armies.

[Earthcrosser599]

People at my FLGS don't comment on Legion brokeness anywhere near as much as I do. My Skorne are more fun to play, but I don't have much trouble winning with my Legion. The people I game with are pretty good friends outside of the gaming table and I have no problem telling them it's not me, it's my army. Which is true.

[themocaw]

I'm tempted to start up a thread in the General Discussion forum, just to ask people how bad they think faction disparity is.

I hate those threads. They always boil down to, "I play Rock, Paper is brokenly OP, Scissors is fine."

[@ndreas]

... I usually tell complainers that they are free to buy the insta-win-faction too

But seriously: I think Warmachine/Hordes has a pretty balanced faction system, and if there were a faction that is clearly OP in every instance, all players would play that faction in competitive environment.

But if they'd do, they would really fast recognize, that the skill that leads the models is as much required as the model itself.

But maybe I am biased because my first faction is Protectorate :P

[bouncymischa]

I hate those threads. They always boil down to, "I play Rock, Paper is brokenly OP, Scissors is fine."

I'm not sure that Warmachine/Hordes is a fully RPS system, though. Admittedly, based on some of the recent discussions I've seen, there could be elements of this -- I know Retribution struggles with Legion because of Lylyth2, but Cygnar deals a lot more handily with Legion, and Retribution can deal with Cygnar. So there is an RPS element there... but at the same time, Legion shows up prominently in major events while both Cygnar and Retribution struggle. So is the system and RPS one, or not? Are there other factors?

You do have a point, though -- internet forums are not particularly good places to go for reasoned, thought-out discussions about complex topics. :P

[Scottl1]

Thats because cygnar and ret have so much self loathing. lol

[Roadhouse]

I play in Tanglethorn's meta, on a different night however. I've never experienced the behavior he's talking about besides the occasional "Legion is OP" joke, but I think I know who the culprit is. It's a Circle player who's favorite thing to run is T4 eKaya, and he gripes due to the fact the list gets royally hosed by eLylyth or a double Ravagore list. This player used to play Khador and didn't complain about Legion until the faction change.

I'm curious as to who is doing the coaching and who is getting coached? Our meta has a ton of new players and I wouldn't mind another player giving a few tips to a new player I was playing, but for one new player to get advice while the other doesn't is unfair.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I don't play Legion, but I know what you're talking about. The thing is that people see Cryx and Legion both as having fast and offensive armies, which can be really hard to deal with. Both factions also have a lot of ways that get around a lot of the rules that are out there, or exploit them a lot. The truth is that Legion (and Cryx) both have plenty of answers and bad matchups too. People just get it in their heads they can't beat them because they're "broken" and have basically lost the game before they even started.

[Everblight 2011]

When someone complains about an ability that legion has, i like to point out that other models in other factions have the same ability. For instance eLylyth had range amplifier for point of origin spells, so does eCaine. pThagrosh has the free animus thing, so does eDoomy. (just to name a few)

That usually helps to quiet the grumbles.

If not, i like to point out the annoying abilities / spells of the models they are using.

If they still complain, find a new opponent. This game is too much fun to be ruined by a whiner!

[Adolat]

Thats because cygnar and ret have so much self loathing.

It's true. Here's a before and after comparison of the day before I started Cygnar to the month after.



To the OP, the habit of people to stop and thirdwheel your game because they think Legion is auto-win is toxic. I've neither played Legion, or against Legion, but I've had people help my opponent because I decided to field eHaley (Who I was 1-2 with at the time). Don't let other people ruin the game for you, just have fun and keep playing. If I were in your situation, I'd switch LGS before swapping factions. Play what YOU want.

[bouncymischa]

Thats because cygnar and ret have so much self loathing. lol

That is entirely possible. On the other hand, I've seen some fairly reasonable arguments that there is a disparity and that factions like Legion and Cryx have certain advantages over their opponents. So far, I haven't seen a comparable argument that they don't.

[Obeisance]

Well, that's the thing. Every faction has it's advantages and disadvantages.

We have great beasts, super solid shooting, great support magic, Eyeless Sight and Pathfinder.

But where do we fall down?

- Our infantry is generally sub par. Legionnaires and Swordsmen can't get Pathfinder. We can't brick up like everyone else. Absolute zero access to Shield Wall.

- Our heavies don't really excel at either DEF or ARM. Carni chassis has crap DEF and mediocre ARM. Angel has OK DEF and low ARM for a heavy. Even Typhon, our expensive character heavy, has the same DEF and ARM of a 6pt Cryx Slayer.

- Buffs. Until eVayl we didn't have any reliable way to strip buffs. Thrulg is terrible. We were also given Naga Nightlurker to help with things like Defender's Ward and Iron Flesh. How useful the Naga will be, is yet to be seen.

- Crap MAT. All our heavies bar Typhon have MAT 6. Unlike Circle, who can sneeze MAT 10-12. Consequently we really struggle with high DEF. There are locks who can help with it, but a lot of the time it's situational. I'd burn down an orphanage for us to get Primal.

- Which leads me to high DEF infantry spam. Again, major problem. There are locks who are better at dealing with it than others, but Erruption of Spines is random, Typhon's RAT is low, a smart player plays around Blight Bringer and kills Forsaken. It's why double Deathstalkers are super common in lists. We have very little dedicated anti-infantry.

- Low roof on P+S. Most locks hit P+S 19 on heavies. That's Ignite, Blessing, etc. That's simply not enough to break things like Tiberion or multiple Khadoran heavies. Other factions easily top out at like P+S 27. That's a huge disparity. Blackfrost Shard can help with DEF and ARM, but they still have to hit. Plus they're squishy and easy to hit/kill.

- Elemental disadvantage. All our shooting has elemental types. Fire and Corrosion. Consequently, unless you're packing Striders, Druids are just going to ruin your day. Not to mention Gorman di Wulfe.

...

So, there you go. Whenever someone whines about how good we are- know they're full of crap and argue it down.

[The Sentinel]

I think it's evident that Legion and Cryx are the strongest factions. If you play them, you're going to hear whining. But the thing is, people love to whine and will complain about balance, justified or not. This happens in all games, whether it's wargaming, RTS, fighting games, etc. Some people have psychological problems with dealing with losses and would rather look for things to blame than think hard about what they could do better.

It's not possible to perfectly balance a game unless the sides are exactly the same. Warmachine/Hordes seems to be a lot better balanced than most other games. It's not uncommon in fighting games for some match-ups to be 70/30 or worse.

Personally, I think it's appropriate and kind of neat that the "bad guy" factions in game terms are the bad guy factions in terms of fluff. If that's not intentional, it's a lucky accident. It would seem kind of stupid if the threats to the world were pushovers. They're supposed to be the bogeymen.

I don't think Legion has better stuff than other factions. Every faction has a lot of good things and great units. I think the imbalances have more to do with match-up issues with specific casters. Retribution in particular also has problems from being newer: it's less fleshed out (e.g. having less than half the casters the other factions have) and less figured out (probably not being played to its full potential).

I think the best advice to people upset about balance is to get better. Let Privateer Press worry about balance.

For the people receiving the hate, I'd say just take it in stride and don't worry about it. Someone has to be the best.

[Obeisance]

Thing is, Legion and Cryx AREN'T the strongest factions. There is no strongest faction. The only thing OP in Warmahordes is a skilled player.

[Frazhar]

I'm pretty sure that everyone winning consistently with legion would continue to win consistently with any other faction.

[The Sentinel]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that no good players like Cygnar

[Roadhouse]

Thing is, Legion and Cryx AREN'T the strongest factions. There is no strongest faction. The only thing OP in Warmahordes is a skilled player.

You're willing to say that the game is completely balanced? So Rhyas has as much potential as either Denny? Zerkova is on the same level as Saeryn? There is a saying, "Where there's smoke, there's fire" I think in the case of Legion, Neutralyze is the fire, for another faction there is a CHOO CHOO