Legion Hate

[Obeisance]

Nah. It's impossible to completely balance any system. WMH has very little power disparity between the factions. We're talking like 5%. Every faction has strengths and weaknesses.

Some casters are better than others. Comparing Rhyas to eDenny is like comparing eShade to Saeyrn.

On a faction vs. faction level, PP really does put in a lot of effort to provide us with a viable tournament system and it shows.

[Madhiggins]

just don't play eLylyth in casual play, she too often just wipes people off the board with legion taking zero casualties(lots of range lists do this too so it's not like it's just her). save her for tournaments. or use her as a threat against whiners, if they complain too much about your other lists just respond with "well i'll just use my eLylyth list instead". that usually shuts them up right fast.

[regleant]

just don't play eLylyth in casual play, she too often just wipes people off the board with legion taking zero casualties(lots of range lists do this too so it's not like it's just her). save her for tournaments. or use her as a threat against whiners, if they complain too much about your other lists just respond with "well i'll just use my eLylyth list instead". that usually shuts them up right fast.

I don't think threatening to use casters even you feel are overpowered helps anyone feel better about playing Legion.

I just played 2 new players yesterday and both commented hearing that legion is top tier (I was their first legion opponent). Quite annoying, but as mentioned somewhere above, just walk them through the stats and what craziness they can do.

[OminousAfro]

To quote Kanye West:

Screams from the haters, got a nice ring to it.

[PG_RevGeoff]

Yikes, well I feel for you. I play Cryx and Legion as my two main factions as well. I only started Cryx because my friend has started Menoth before I did. I am going to join in with the "every faction has strengths and weaknesses". If you have ever been on the receiving end of dual stone teleported boosted heavy wolf creature to the face you'll understand. Once you've been hit by eHaley's feat the third game in a row you'll have to fight back the "this is too powerful!!". From Molik and Tiberion to Black 13 we all have great pieces in our factions. Legion has been getting a lot of hate because of eyeless sight (which has already been mentioned) and Jake...who is (from everyone who has seen him play) an amazing player and someone who is willing to give advice to all LoE players (so yeah, we can blame him for our faction getting stronger).
The only advice I can give is to ask people to ask you opponent if it is ok to not have side-coaches during the game as you are trying to learn. Then politely enforce the agreement when people come over and are a-holes. As you become more experienced you will be able to counter their snide comments with your own as you know which are their best pieces or combos - I am lucky to have a great group of people that I play with but I still occasionally face the "that is so broken" comments. I usually offer to trade the model/unit for one of my opponents "broken" or "op" units"...that usually ends any more comments for the night.
Good luck Tanglethorn, I hope you don't end up quitting LoE because we have a great community here that is very supportive...and we have eyeless sight so even if we have crappy rats we can still make people sweat when the Ravagore starts pew-pewing, and that is good for a laugh every time.
(OH!!! and when people keep saying "but Legion wins all the tourneys...make sure you correct them and tell them that it is Jake that is winning them, not Legion. Ok, yeah it is all your fault Neutralyze!).

[R.J.]

Legion and Cryx are the main bad guys of the Iron Kingdoms, they have abilities that feel "unfair" to reflect that. Embrace it with showmanship, show up in a feathered cloak and practice your supervillain poses.

[gelfy]

Just make sure you dont turn into the Cygnar forums...... MWEEEEHHHHH. when i play legion i dont get those remarks. might be because i gym it ;3

[Lanz]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that no good players like Cygnar

That might not actually be far from the truth. You can tell who some of the best players are because time and time again they place high (if not win) most events they attend. Offhand, I don't think any of these top-tier players play Cygnar.

[Defenstrator]

But where do we fall down?

- Our infantry is generally sub par. Legionnaires and Swordsmen can't get Pathfinder. We can't brick up like everyone else. Absolute zero access to Shield Wall.

Ok, this is a myth I'm going to address becuase I really have no idea where it comes from. Legion's infantry is dead solid. Raptors are arguably the best cavalry in the game. Striders + UA are a great shooting unit. Legionnaires are a solid screen.

And the rest of the stuff is decent. Swordsmen, Warmongers, etc, yeah they're not top tier. But they aren't bad. They're actually solid choices that stand up perfectly well to what other factions have. To be honest I think Legion has less dead infantry choices than Cygnar.

The only really marginal things in the faction are Archers and Grotesques. It just seems like it isn't great because Legion is about buffing beasts. Imagine if Legion had some of those crazy infantry buff spells like Iron Flesh. They'd be horrifying.

[Mercy]

My husband and I have this discussion every once in awhile. Usually after one of us does some weird combination that catches the other off guard.

On topic compared faction to faction every faction has a strength. It's finding the combination that suites you. Cryx, LoE, Circle even Skorne in some cases are fast and very aggressive. It's knowing what the primary and secondary threats are. Cryx for example Tart should be killed ASAP. Hordes realies on fury generated by beasts. Kill the beast outright. (that will also hinder absylonia's feat). If your having issues with PoM jacks. Kill the choir, they die to a stiff breeze.

In general though it's how well you know your opponents faction and your own. That old saying knowledge is power. Recognize the threats and deal with them as you see fit.

I guess I'm in the boat that WMH is well rounded as has a very little OP feel.

[Matthaeus]

just don't play eLylyth in casual play, she too often just wipes people off the board with legion taking zero casualties(lots of range lists do this too so it's not like it's just her).

Good, here's some actually contructive input !

This is the approach that should be taken to deal with a bad reputation. Sure, you can dismiss people's opinions as clueless whining, or you can wonder "Why do they feel that way ?" and try to understand the roots of the problem (e.g. something about the game was frustrating, as in the eLylyth example). OP, I think your question would in fact be best directed to your opponents ; as a matter of fact, is there something they find particularly hard to deal with ? From there, finding a parade should be the next step. I've yet to hear of an uncounterable trick ; from what I know, the game just offers too much possibilities to come up with an answer. There's no questioning that power discrepancy exists, though the general consensus is that Warmachine/Hordes remains very balanced overall. At worst, playing against a "strong" faction should be seen as a challenge, not an impassable wall.

"u jus won coz u play legion" and "lol noob legions fine l2p" are both wrong stances.
Broad assumptions and sweeping statements do not an intelligent opinion make, so try to disprove them and avoid falling for them yourself !

Of course, if they do blame their losses on faction choices and are adamant about it... Just drink their tears while your dragonspawns eat their army alive. Everblight has no pity to spare for fools.
... Or for anyone else, for that matter.

Finally, it depends whether you're willing to make a case for your faction. If you're fond of the models and fluff, it certainly is worth it, but on the other hand it might be too much of a hassle if you just want a friendly atmosphere and would rather discuss things other than game balance. I think that last bit is more up to your general attitude though ; if you're friendly and constructive, you should be fine anyway.

Hope I made sense !

[Venom321]

Your gonna get mocked no matter what you play. I like pp and how everything has a good balance. If they can't get over what faction you play and its more than just a good ribbing refer them to page 5 i believe it is in the rulebooks.

[hereticwolf]

I have taken this small bit from Thunder_God's posting about game tempo but it's the basic premise for this entire game.

"This is often a game of match-ups, where you try to match your high DEF models to the enemy's low MAT/RAT models; where you try to kill all the opponent's models capable of killing high ARM models and then giving them your Focus-camping caster and hopefully a bunch of heavies, to which they cannot provide a suitable answer. Your goal in the game is to pose questions: "Can you deal with this? And how about now? And now?" You keep asking questions, and keep cranking up the pressure. But of course, this is the exact same thing your opponent will be trying to do. While you try to give him questions which he must answer, he will also pose such questions for you to answer. And the question is who will be able to pose a question the other cannot answer. Sometimes it doesn't work like that, and you both play defensively, or you both play offensively, and someone gets knocked-out, or out-attritioned."

At the end of the day this makes the perfect point that it's not the army it's the player. Every game in my opinion is dependent on how you choose to answer those tough questions. Do I run typhon up to waste those bane knights knowing that deathjack is right behind it waiting to clean up? Do I ghostwalk that deathjack right through to your warcaster ect...

I mean every Faction has its tricks so in my opinion there is no such a thing as an OP facton just OP players.

[Therat]

In general though it's how well you know your opponents faction and your own. That old saying knowledge is power. Recognize the threats and deal with them as you see fit.

I agree with this, and lost many battles in the beginning because I didn't know what something did. I am still finding things out, but I don't go blaming factions for being broken though. It really is my own fault for not reading their cards or not paying close enough attention to something or even in some cases not fully understanding a rule.

Something can seem really broken and OP if you don't know how it works which normally leads to leaving yourself wide open to it.

[Shogran]

Warmachine/hordes is very balanced, every army have so way of doing something broken, but it's very hard to pull off unless your OP has a very bad match up. I was playing before Hordes came a long in MK1 and I got Legion because I really liked the models and the law, I think most people did and do. Yes MK1 Legion could be called a little broken when it came to Rhyas (3 way game, me and a Khador player messed each other up before for a caster kill, then the 3rd player with Magnus came in, finished almost everything I had, I then Killed 99% of his army with just Rhyas before he got me.) But that was fixed, a little too much if you ask me

People who think a army in Warmachine/Horeds is broken need to play some gw games, were every year or so the game is changed and it is like playing a brand new game, and were the army's keep getting redone and they are away's better then every other army out, so every one will want the new army.



Disclaimer-this is my own view of gw and has in no way anything to do with Privateer Press

[Admiral_Arzar]

Man, you haven't felt hate until you've been a Cryx player.

1000x this. I've been playing Cryx for a while, and just picked up a Legion army to start a second faction (yeah, I'm THAT guy). I wonder how awesome the hate will be now that I play both...

[Gopz]

You'll receive hate if you regularly trash people. I've had others criticise my use of Legion, Khador, Menoth and Cryx. If people don't think they can cope with your list they get scared and tend to say stupid things. One trick you can try is saying "Ok, lets swap lists for the next game". See how they react to that one.

[Gopz]

I take the blame for it all

PS: you bastard!

[Madhiggins]

funnly enough, a lot of the Legion hate is because of Neutralyze. the biggest thing i hear most people say as evidence that Legion is OP is the fact that they often win the big tournaments. except it's usually the same guy, Neutralyze, who's winning the tournaments and he happens to play Legion. if he played any other faction, the results would probably be the same.

[tunagami]

Maybe Neutralyze should try playing a different faction for a change so that people know it IS the player and NOT the army. (I am sure I am not the first one to make this suggestion ;-))

[Neutralyze]

I like being good at one faction. I believe I wouldn't be as good without playing a single faction.

[tunagami]

I like being good at one faction. I believe I wouldn't be as good without playing a single faction.

But think of all of us sucky legion players who are getting a bad wrap because of your sins! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

;-)

[tonyzahn]

In my local meta we have a lot of talented players, so there's not much whining over any faction. At least not that I've heard.

My theory is that people's problem with Cryx and Legion is not that they win all the time (I have a better win % with my Khador), but the way they win.
Lost a slugfest against the Butcher where there are heavy casualties on both sides is far easier to handle than having a Reak headbutt your heavy so an Angelius can zoom in and assassinate your caster with only 1 other model removed from the game.

[Bodiless]

I'm sort of curious - if one was to pick up an alt-faction to drive home the message "it isn't Legion - I'm just better than you", what would you pick? Right now I play Legion and Cryx, so I get no credit at all.

[MMMMK]

I'm sort of curious - if one was to pick up an alt-faction to drive home the message "it isn't Legion - I'm just better than you", what would you pick? Right now I play Legion and Cryx, so I get no credit at all.

That would be Pigs

[katadder]

But think of all of us sucky legion players who are getting a bad wrap because of your sins! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

;-)

and think of mk3, we will get nerfed back to the stoneage because of Neut

[regleant]

I like being good at one faction. I believe I wouldn't be as good without playing a single faction.

That's interesting. I have to say I feel the opposite - playing a 2nd faction has made me better at both. Whether it's understanding the other faction more deeply or trying to immitate craziness from one with the other. Also since I have one Hordes and one WM, I get to see what pains each side. That said, I've been in the game for < 1 yr and am still learning what other factions can do (e.g. no Cygnar players in my meta, but 3 Gators), and I probably play fewer games / wk than you do.

I do think that there's a diminishing return somewhere, though, where playing more factions makes you a worse player because you can never learn any of them well. I wouldn't go more than 3 factions...

[tunagami]

That would be Pigs

While I think pigs would be a good challenge, I don't think you could really say it is a fully capable faction at the moment.

Any faction but Cryx or Legion because those are the main ones people seem to like to cry about the most.

[Seferon]

Here is the thing about Cryx and Legion that get people.

Cryx literally have some of the best Warcasters in the game. Of course the faction that has the most amount of top casters in the game is going to get hate. Its just how it goes.

Legion flat out ignores half of the rules in the game while having a very good selection of warlocks inside of the faction. The thing is, people look at are rules and see nothing but great stuff on are beasts. What they don't see is the price tag of are beasts. Honestly, the first 2 or 3 points we pay on are beasts is for Eyeless Sight and Pathfinder and the furry mechanic. I know several people in my local area who have played legion in the past and switched to a different faction. They all have no problem with Legion because the look at the price they paid for heavies when playing Legion and then they look at the price they pay for what they get now. Its quite a big difference. I mean, when you can get a Reconer ((SP)) for 7 or 8 points ((I forget what it is)) and are closest beast we have to that is a Seraph at 8 points......yeah....there is a big difference.

[SageofLodoss]

Here is the thing about Cryx and Legion that get people.

Cryx literally have some of the best Warcasters in the game. Of course the faction that has the most amount of top casters in the game is going to get hate. Its just how it goes.

Legion flat out ignores half of the rules in the game while having a very good selection of warlocks inside of the faction. The thing is, people look at are rules and see nothing but great stuff on are beasts. What they don't see is the price tag of are beasts. Honestly, the first 2 or 3 points we pay on are beasts is for Eyeless Sight and Pathfinder and the furry mechanic. I know several people in my local area who have played legion in the past and switched to a different faction. They all have no problem with Legion because the look at the price they paid for heavies when playing Legion and then they look at the price they pay for what they get now. Its quite a big difference. I mean, when you can get a Reconer ((SP)) for 7 or 8 points ((I forget what it is)) and are closest beast we have to that is a Seraph at 8 points......yeah....there is a big difference.

Bit of a pet peeve nitpick here: It's "Our." That was the only reoccuring problem in all of that, so it just stood out and hammered at me.


Legion beasts are definitely costly; I'm not even sure if there are any other factions that have an 11 point *non-character* beast/jack.

I think what some people like to hate Legion for is the self sufficiency of its beasts (and to some extent even some of its units, like Raptors/Striders). It's very difficult to break the Legion wagon by taking out one wheel, even if it's a really important one.

[Xnath]

I'm sort of curious - if one was to pick up an alt-faction to drive home the message "it isn't Legion - I'm just better than you", what would you pick? Right now I play Legion and Cryx, so I get no credit at all.

Pure faction cygnar (ie no mercs)

[Madhiggins]

people love to talk about how op legions heavies are because a lot of them have pathfinder or eyeless sight, but then the same haters don't seem to mention that we actually have kind of low pow(18 at our best) with VERY FEW means to increase it(usually a +2 IF we happen to be a lock that can buff a beast). while at the same time other factions are running around with such high buffed pow that they can kill one of our beasts with just two attacks.

[Teej]

to be honest i dont care if people say my faction is OP, i myself play cryx, i have been beaten a number of times more than ive won games, im just really in it to have fun at the end of the day, theres been a few games where i just say "im not playing anymore" and pack up because i cant stand the endless whining from some people, ive been beaten by turn 2 in some cases but the one thing that matters is if you have fun or not.

[Shadowtide]

The problem that people have with legion stems from the fact that they are harder to play against if you don't know what their threat ranges are. They combine speed with power to punish small mistakes in positioning that other armies can't exploit as effectively. The same can be said of Cryx, which is likely why they get similar if not greater levels of trash talk. Slower factions have more easily judged threat ranges so tend to be less surprising. They also tend to be more enjoyable to play against because they at least allow a less experienced opponent to put up a fight instead of killing their army before they can act.

Legion has the benefit of being a naturally aggressive race, which can be advantageous because it is easier to attack than defend (which on a side note is why I am often bothered by scenarios where the defending player has to play with a lower points value). The attacker can select a single model or unit that is out of position and implement a single strategy to kill it, while the defender has to keep all forces in position and envision all possible ways the attacker can come in in order to keep from getting behind. If the more aggressive army makes a small positioning mistake they may not be able to do enough damage, but they may just be able to select a different set of targets and still come out on top. If the more defensive army makes a small positioning error they can lose an expensive model or even their caster. Most factions and lists within those factions lie somewhere on the spectrum between offensive and defensive, but legion and Cryx tend to be more aggressive because their stats suggest it.

People who say that Legion ignores half the rules in the game don't realize that we pay the point cost for every rule ignored if we get to use the ability or not. In most of the games I play eyeless sight and pathfinder never come up, or only do so in a very limited way. Often such rules are irrelevant in the first place; a chunk of our shooting beasts (carni and typhon) use sprays which ignore everything eyeless sight ignores anyway, but few complain about sprays being overpowered in other factions. Such people would be whining much more if they had to play against a Legion army without eyeless sight and pathfinder and an appropriate cost reduction across the board.

[Madhiggins]

people are just upset that dragons are cooler than werewolves, elephants, trolls and robots.

[Scottl1]

Just not zombie pirates..

[Wutwut]

Personal view on OP FACTION (not unit/combos):

-If 90% of your army ignores a rule that either another army is built around or charged for you are effectivly fighting 50 vs 45 pts (menoth ignoring non-magical attacks, cryx ignoring "death" of several models (and to a lesser extent trolls which are not NEARLY as reliable) and of course Eyeless Sight).

-Legion in particular completely hoses some combos with run of the mill solid beasts, the issue is, even when the lists they are facing are not the compeltly-hosable-eKaya-trolol variety, they are never really wasting points

I think, IT IS due to RPS but not in the traditional sense more like the meta sense: Kayazi, MHSF, Shadowpack, etc. are insanely effective vs a lot of lists and units, and staples of their armies in detriment of IFP (can't remember when I last saw this united on a list...), Invictors/House Riflemen, etc. So basicly Legion does one awesome thing which is to make "take on all comers lists" have to devalue stealth as the ultimate defensive stat for infantry (which I guess isn't in some players best interest).

PS-If anything Legion could be accused of NOW being at an advantage simply because Colossals and Gargantuans (I refuse to "TomCat" their names) hose infrantry so much and LoE's strengh resides so much more on their beasts (like a reversed Retribution).

[Madhiggins]

i just don't understand the whole "Legion is OP" since our beasts are about as tough as a wet paper bag and are literally the weakest pow in all of hordes. no primal buff for us, no readily available support units to buff our str either. and really the only time eyeless helps us out is on Ravagores and Bolt Throwers. i suppose we have a few super tough casters or rough combos, but heck who doesn't?

[Scottl1]

i just don't understand the whole "Legion is OP" since our beasts are about as tough as a wet paper bag and are literally the weakest pow in all of hordes. no primal buff for us, no readily available support units to buff our str either. and really the only time eyeless helps us out is on Ravagores and Bolt Throwers. i suppose we have a few super tough casters or rough combos, but heck who doesn't?

Think about many factions forms of defense. Clouds, stealth, and forests which eyeless sight ignores. That along with pathfinder means there is no defensive measure(including walls) to be taken to slow down loe beast's advance aside from a solid structure like a house which someone like an angel also ignores. That sir is where a lot of the loe is op stems from. Then on top of that kinda freedom add in feats like saeryn's, elylyth, etc further abuses what already is an extremely powerful ability. You say you pay a lot but really an angel and scythean are still quite cheap considering spd 6 or better with nothing that stops them and still hit fairly hard doesn't seem like you pay that much. lol

But it has been stated yes other armies have strong abilities but outside of trolls with tough I don't see an army that has a rule so saturated through out like loe does with eyeless sight and pathfinder/flight.

[kremmet]

But it has been stated yes other armies have strong abilities but outside of trolls with tough I don't see an army that has a rule so saturated through out like loe does with eyeless sight and pathfinder/flight.

Turns out Undead is a rule.