The Fear of Character Restrictions and it's Ludicrously Alleged Ramifications for Us

[MagnustheJust]

Hey Kiddies,

There was a thread over in the New Members area -
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...00#post1421600

- that got me thinking about this subject again. So as a long time Mercenary player, here's my take on the subject.

We have, between the four contracts, 33 solos at our disposal. And these solos are where the character restriction in tourneys can be a detriment to Mercenary players, but it does not have to be. Only one of these - the Ogrun Bokur is not a character. And a few of these characters have abilities that overlap, such as Saxon Orrick and Rhupert Carvolo- the Piper of Ord. We also have access to several solos that debuff enemy model/units or make them suffer for being buffed, such as - Eiryss2, Harlan Versh, and Lanyssa Ryssyl.

As far as units go, we have 12 out of 25 that are not characters, so this is less of an issue. Granted there are a handful of character units that we would rather run in every list - Nyss Hunters are a great example of this - but alas, no.

[Robert Shepherd]

I don't particularly like character restrictions (I feel it's an arbitrary restriction) but they're not crippling to mercs.

However, they're also not fun for new players; playing mercs in a character-restricted environment involves forking out both a load of cash and a large amount of personal time to both pay for and learn how to use the very different forces you need to field in order to properly compete with mercs in such an environment.

[absent]

i don't think they are "crippling" to mercs but i do strongly feel that they severly limit our list selections much more than other factions, and that just being FA restricted would be a much more fox news answer, it would be fair and balanced.(J/K on fox news, N/K on the second part) Why should we have to go without rhupert in our second list, but menoth can have the choir in all of theirs? Realisticly they are basicly filling the same buff role, similar points cost and function, but ours has a first name so it's restricted.

[SportsComedian]

If you only want to play a certain contract, IE just Searforge or just Talion, it's hard to put together 2 lists because you'll have some character solo overlap. Searforge especially, you always want Thor in there. If you play all Mercs, it's not really a problem I suppose.

I guess I just don't understand what the spirit of the rule is either. You'll never field both your lists at the same time, so what's the point of having character restrictions? Was this just their way of making sure you have 2 different casters? Seems easier ways to do that. I don't like the rule, or quite get the point of it.

[absent]

No it's supposed to promote diversity of lists, less avatars, covenant of menoth, tartarsauce, stuff like that, it's just a really arbitrary way of doing it as it doesn't cover other models that you see all the time in tournament lists like the choir or vassal, or the UA's with common units.

[wazatdingder]

Mercs can't be soft little sissies! Suck it up and deal with it.

[absent]

We already play mercs and do suck it up and deal with it, but the person making the tournament rules really has to be responsible for making sure those rules are balanced across the factions, pointing out that it isn't is merely feedback.

[Robert Shepherd]

If you only want to play a certain contract, IE just Searforge or just Talion, it's hard to put together 2 lists because you'll have some character solo overlap.

I don't really think this is a legitimate complaint. Consciously limiting yourself to only a small portion of the faction, and then being concerned about how limited you are, doesn't really have much traction.

Also, I think you meant to say 'just Searforge or just A Pirate's Life'.

[bouncymischa]

I guess I just don't understand what the spirit of the rule is either. You'll never field both your lists at the same time, so what's the point of having character restrictions? Was this just their way of making sure you have 2 different casters? Seems easier ways to do that. I don't like the rule, or quite get the point of it.

I've always suspected that part of the issue is the way FA: C models are costed. Taking Magic: The Gathering as an example, Legendary cards are typically cheaper/more powerful for their cost because you can only ever have one on the field (even on opposite sides). I have a feeling that Privateer took much the same with its FA: C models, expecting that they would show up more rarely... but the truth is, FA: C really means nothing more than FA: 1 in most games. In fact, since few people will actually ever take more than one of a certain unit or warjack, FA is largely irrelevant in most games. So you end up with a bunch of undercosted character models that are supposedly limited by a mechanic that doesn't really occur in 99% of games.

In some ways, I think Privateer's learned their lesson from this... many of the newer character models seem somewhat lacklustre compared to the older ones, which suggest they're probably costed more evenly.

But I wouldn't be surprised if character restrictions are, in part, an effort to make FA actually mean something. Although as some people have pointed out, it would be more fair if you applied it to all FAs...

[wazatdingder]

We already play mercs and do suck it up and deal with it, but the person making the tournament rules really has to be responsible for making sure those rules are balanced across the factions, pointing out that it isn't is merely feedback.

It is balanced across the FACTIONS. Unfortunately, we are not one of those

[PG_Salix060907]

I've gone to some of the competitive events in my area. And I have placed decently in those events with character restrictions. Do I like have to limit my options when building tournament lists, not at all. Did I still go and play some games, you better believe it.

Would I have preferred not to deal with character restrictions, most definitely. When I go to a competitive event, I would like to take the best two lists that I can. And I feel that character restrictions in Mercs makes my lists subpar. I always feel that I have a list that I find lacking.

My second list is almost always Shea's tier list, just so I can put most of the other solos in my first list. Depending on the day I would prefer to run 2 highborn lists but can't due to shared solos.

[GlassJaw]

I don't think it's a big deal at all. In fact, I'd argue that Mercs in general deal with character restrictions better than other factions. And this is coming from someone that doesn't player Searforge or Talion.

For example, as a Khador player, if I want to give something Pathfinder, I can take Saxon but that's it. I don't have access to Rhupert. That's just one example.

If you want more anti-armor or damage output, Mercs have access to Ragman, Gorman, and A&H. Again, Saxon and Rhupert can be used in 2 lists. Sure, you can't put eEiryss in all of your lists but no faction can.

Those are the most valuable solos in my mind, aside from Thor. So unless you are playing pure Searforge in a 2-list format, Mercs have a ton of options.

For units, the biggest character restriction is probably Nyss since they are great with any caster in 4-Star or Highborne. But that still leaves Boomhowler & Co, Forgeguard, Gun Mages, Assassins, Steelheads, etc, etc. Tons of options.

tl;dr - Decide which of your lists will have Rhupert, Saxon, Gorman, Thor, and/or A&H and go from there.

[drazz00]

There is an appearent tendency among the merc players to limit themselves within the faction, which I actually think is fair. For all purposes, mercs are essentially 3 factions; Searforge, Talion, and "mercs" (an amalgamation of the less restrictive units, casters and solos that can be taken in 4Star and Highborn). I see most people fit largely into one of those categories, and I think most people only see merc players as one of those categories.

To limit oneself into any one of those groups makes it somewhat difficult to handle the character restrictions. SR hurts those that only function in a small part of the faction, and I think a lot of people do that very thing. Its totally understandable, given that the merc faction is, I'm pretty sure, the LARGEST in the game. WHo else has 33 solos and 25 units? And let's not forget access to Bad Seeds, lesser warlocks, kayazy, and gun mages.

Honestly, I think because we are have so much variety, its difficult to see everything we have. If you're going to take mercs to a tourny with SR, you might have to go outside your comfort zone, in terms of favorite models and wallet usage, but we have plenty of ways to be competitive.

Just make sure to answer solve the common list building problems:
--hit high def
--crack high arm
--take out stealth
--have pathfinder
--remove effects

[absent]

Your assessment and following example doesn't consider the fact that khador is designed to be able to bring extremely powerful models to bear without )non warcaster) synergy in most cases, and that mercs are designed around synergy, in which all of the synergy pieces are characters.

Also pathfinder is a very silly example, khador has more options than saxon for pathfinder, half your casters have boundless charge, and tons of khador units can have some form of pathfinder or are ranged units where it is less valuable, the only merc unit that has pathfinder is a character ranged unit =P And one unit gets pathfinder once a game, but in order to do that, it's a character unit =P Yeah you can take saxon if one of your lists happens to be 4* and you happen to need pathfinder for warrior models only in your 4* list, but that is just highlighting the issue, i need to be in a specific contract to get a specific tool to replace what character restrict is costing me as a general tool.

It's just an honest to god fact that character restrict effects mercs.

sure mercs have plenty of choice, and you can find lists that work in character restrict environments, but for me personally it cuts my 2 list options more than in half. That is tough. Thats maybe just me, but salix said some things very similar to my thinking. It certainly effects mercs at least as much as khador, and khador is often looking at some of the merc solo's as reason why the character restrict hurts them so really we are in basicly the same boat.

[absent]

WHo else has 33 solos and 25 units?

to answer your question

cygnar (32 units, 37 solos)
khador ( 32 units, 35 solos)
cryx (25 units, 29 solos)
menoth (28 units, 33 solos)


you do know that cygnar and khador get almost every one of those, and menoth and cryx get a lot of them right? =) Hence they get more than what mercs get. And now they get most of them as in faction choices too =)

[drazz00]

Bah, numbers!

Restricting mercs is a serious answer tournies need to look at. Not the merc faction, but mercs in other factions. Why do A&H, Eiyriss, Gorman, Rupert, and Nyss seem to show up in every battle?

I know there won't ever be this limitation, but I'd love to see each "faction" in a tourny only able to hire 1 merc, between lists.

The preponderance of the epic elf is one of the major reasons there is SR anyway.

[absent]

i sincerely hope epic elf is not the reason hacksaw greenlit character restricts, she is only really powerful against really poweful BS like a focus camping armor buffed caster running right at your caster and being invicible, or defenders warded insano defense heavys, or what have you. She loses a lot of her value if the enemy doesn't have stuff you can't deal with through normal means. Basicly she is a counter balance to a couple things that sure feel like mistakes =P Maybe i have a distorted view since i play mercs and ret, and she works out fantasticly well in both my factions, since she is in faction in both and doesn't even mess up my jacks in one of them, and both struggle to down that stuff with heavy jacks unless she gets involved...

[Ger]

The character restrictions for mercs has the largest impact on new players and those with smaller collections. Merc players that gravitate to one or two of our sub-themes can have a real hard time as a result. So at the low end it really does have a nasty impact.

There is a flipside though. Mercs are also able to really soak that restriction on the high end. When someone has a large and diverse merc collection they can really ignore the problem. In point of fact I'd argue that the most competitive lists a merc can build are diverse ones to begin with. Ones that use radically different casters and thus support. So in a two or three list format I'd some what expect people to look for variety anyway.


Thus I don't really think it hampers mercs in a way that prevents us from competitive play. It does however place much larger collection requirements on a merc player to play competitively than many of the other factions. (though arguably those requirements existed if you wanted to be competitive anyway...)


Honestly my biggest complaint about the format is that our Warcaster Attachment turned out to be a character and thus restricted. That really hurt to see.

[GlassJaw]

It's just an honest to god fact that character restrict effects mercs.

I still don't buy it. Give me specific examples of solos that severely cripples a Merc player from building 2 solid tournament lists. Again, I listed what I thought were the most useful/important/valuable solos and how a Merc player can still work around character restrictions.

Honestly, I might argue that Sylys is the most difficult decision to make since he's great with almost every Merc caster.

And for the record, Saxon is hugely important for Khador. Being able to give Pathfinder to units like Assassins and Doom Reaver or casters like pVlad can be game-changing.

[Ger]

Your collection is primarily Searforge. You want to run Gorten + Durgen. You have an extra $30 worth of Highborn solos. Where's Thor going? More importantly how good are these lists going to be?

It's really collection determined, and units are where it's really going to show. A unit in Warmachine's a good $ investment. Some of our best diversity units in regards to playability across contracts are characters.

[jonconcarne]

I still don't buy it. Give me specific examples of solos that severely cripples a Merc player from building 2 solid tournament lists. Again, I listed what I thought were the most useful/important/valuable solos and how a Merc player can still work around character restrictions.

Honestly, I might argue that Sylys is the most difficult decision to make since he's great with almost every Merc caster.

I think what Absent is trying to say is that you do have to work around character restrictions with Mercs. And due to the large number of characters in Mercs, they're affected more than factions such as Menoth, Legion or Trolls, where their support models are non-character and aren't being restricted in this format. It's not really something that can be argued because it's there plain as day. Mercs are hit "harder" than others. Whether or not you can make just as competitive lists under these restrictions is where the argument comes in, especially in comparison to other factions.

[GlassJaw]

I think what Absent is trying to say is that you do have to work around character restrictions with Mercs.

Just like every faction.

And due to the large number of characters in Mercs, they're affected more than factions such as Menoth, Legion or Trolls, where their support models are non-character and aren't being restricted in this format. It's not really something that can be argued because it's there plain as day. Mercs are hit "harder" than others. Whether or not you can make just as competitive lists under these restrictions is where the argument comes in, especially in comparison to other factions.

Kovnik Joe
Great Bears
Bane Lord Tartarus
Withershadow Combine
Janissa
Black 13th
Arlan

I'd argue that those character restrictions require incredibly difficult decisions when building multiple lists for tournaments with those factions. I'm not saying Mercs don't have hard decisions either but to say that they are worse off than other factions is very short-sighted.

Heck, determining which list will have Kovnik Joe or the WSC usually determines the caster and most of the build of a list.

[rydiafan]

I just dislike that it affects Sylys but not the skarlock, squire, heirophant, or dog. It affects Aiyanna & Holt but not the choir. Because all of our tools are characters, everything we have is hit. Meanwhile the other factions have core items which are unaffected.

Just make FA apply across all your lists and be done with it.

[jonconcarne]

Just like every faction.
...
I'd argue that those character restrictions require incredibly difficult decisions when building multiple lists for tournaments with those factions. I'm not saying Mercs don't have hard decisions either but to say that they are worse off than other factions is very short-sighted.

Heck, determining which list will have Kovnik Joe or the WSC usually determines the caster and most of the build of a list.

And how many non-character solos and units do those factions have. I'm of the opinion right now that it may not really matter as much for Mercs, but to say that it's exactly the same for everybody is, how you say...short sighted. Look at the big picture. Take Rydiafan's examples as a starting point. Look at legion compared to everybody else and tell me that their noticably smaller amount of characters doesn't help them in this format.

I'm just saying, the information is all there. Whether you think it matters is your own opinion, but the fact is that it's there. Undeniably.

[PG_Nazdrek]

I play several different factions and this year I have elected to only play my Mercs. I initially thought Character restrictions where going to suck; however I do not find it to be a problem. I do have pretty much every caster thou. This rule is a good one that helps keep the armies varied up so the power solo's are not a crutch in every list. I support it and like the added challenge.

[slinkdawg]

My view of character restrictions for mercs is that you pretty much have to run all or not most of the contracts to do it effectively. It is pretty rough for newer players from the standpoint of buying into the game and getting a few decent lists. But most people that play mercs, they tend to revel in walking uphill both ways and like having everything be a little more difficult for them.

For example, losing Silys the nailer of wishes is rough, but you couldn't use him in searforge or your pirate's life shae list anyway. Same for Stannis. You can't run 3 lists with full steelhead module, but you should run him where the module is most broken. Rhupert is another harsh solo to lose via character restriction. He could go in any merc list.

Are you gonna run many of your pirate solos outside of your shae list though? Probably not. Make a ridiculous shae list and boo hoo, you are limited to talion but can take the commodore and make use of all the pirate solos for cheap in your theme list.

From the remaining contracts, you have quite a few options still. And the contracts diverge. You can't use pAlexia or kayazy eliminators in your constance list (if you feel like using her).

It's worth saying that I think the most limited solo resource in mercs are the solos that increase damage and deal with high armor. So one list gets Aiyana (probably shae list), one gets ragman, and one gets gorman. Dwarves deal with armor better than most by their nature.

As for Rhupert, you need other pathfinder options. I would put Nyss hunters in one list and Rhupert in the other. Shae doesn't really need and can't bring either of those.

[PG_Stevo]

I don't particularly like character restrictions (I feel it's an arbitrary restriction) but they're not crippling to mercs.

However, they're also not fun for new players; playing mercs in a character-restricted environment involves forking out both a load of cash and a large amount of personal time to both pay for and learn how to use the very different forces you need to field in order to properly compete with mercs in such an environment.

I had a lengthy response put together, then I read this and it pretty much sums up my feelings.

[Robert Shepherd]

I just dislike that it affects Sylys but not the skarlock, squire, heirophant, or dog. It affects Aiyanna & Holt but not the choir. Because all of our tools are characters, everything we have is hit. Meanwhile the other factions have core items which are unaffected.

Just make FA apply across all your lists and be done with it.

I concur. By way of example, I've picked up a Legion army on the cheap recently, and when theorymachining lists I've been staggered by how little they care about character restrictions relative to mercs.

I would be very interested in seeing Absolute Field Allowance (i.e. field allowance applying across all lists) becoming a thing, though. Although for 3- or 4-list divide and conquer formats (which I think are silly, but which I don't see going away) there might need to be some additional allowance made to keep factions like the Protectorate in the game.

[null_sheen]

I have not played mercs but looking at getting into them. One thing that gets me is if in Circle i limited myself to only constructs when i would be limiting myself to only 3 warlocks. If i limited myself to a tharn only i would also be down the three warlocks.

The expence to play streamroller is similar for all factions as you need to have diverse lists

[FearMeMortals]

The flaw in your premise Magnus is that all units and solos are created equally. Simply comparing numbers only scratches the surface.

Mercenaries have some major flaws as a faction. Many of our solutions are bound up in character models that are quickly consumed in a 3*50pt context. One example of this is ability to crack ARM. The majority of our jacks have POW17 weapons. This isn't sufficient to crack some of the ARM21,22,23+ combinations that almost all factions are capable of putting on the table. We lack non character units such as the Choir of Menoth or Arcanists. This is just one example.

There are other areas that we are at a disadvantage (note: its not impossible and Mercenaries as a faction are not "broken" by this) compared to factions with non-character solutions.

[Ger]

FearMeMortals point about armor cracking is an excellent one and I feel worth exploring how we can deal with it.

One list that's Rhulic in nature. Gorten or Durgen, pick one, throw in Thor. List now cracks armor just fine and you need to figure out where you put your remaining points.
Damiano's list. Damiano by his nature cracks armor just fine when he needs to. Could throw in Ragman.
Anything else with A+H and Gorman.

Now these three lists would be nature take some different solos, but there's still some nasty choices. Who gets what units? Where do the solos go? Granted all three can be highborn and use Gunmages for example, but there's still plenty of diversity to go through.

Here's the rub. When you've finished designing and optimizing these lists. All three of them are going to diverge from each other greatly and that takes $$$. It might not seem like much but having both a Rhulic and Non-Rhulic battle group sets is pretty cost intensive.

PS: This is about how I'd approach the situation myself. I might elect to drop Damiano for someone else, but he really is our MVP caster.

[King-of-Storms]

So would more varied non-character esque solos are in order?

There are plenty of times for any faction (mostly Cygnar and Mercs) I wished I can take two characters such as Arlan Strangeways or Arlan-esque solos along. I don't appreciate the WA and UA limitations either but it's what we got now. Then again you can always homebrew things...

[FearMeMortals]

We definitely can solve problems. In the context of cracking ARM I only meant to point out that often you encounter players that stack Aiyana and holt, Gorman and Ragman into a eMag's list and then say 'gee I don't know why people complain about Merc's ability to tackle high ARM', and by high ARM I mean a jack with a shield and an additional ARM buff such as defender's ward etc (ARM24+). The only issue with this is when you start running into character restrictions.

A few non character support models that have *Actions that can only affect Friendly Faction (so the main factions can't get benefit from them) would be pretty useful.

[maomolin]

Glad I could spark some serious talk!

Coming from a new player perspective I see this:
1. Mercs fight an uphill battle on the tabletop (possible, but uphill)
2. Your wallet is screwed harder to play this faction in fluffy-QQ Tournament land (Page 5 anyone?). While Mercs have enough /different/ characters, other factions are not requiring the same financial investment to aquire similar goals (Ord vs choir example: buy 1 choir, use multiple lists, buy Ord though, and need boomhowlers/press gangers to bring "Tough" back into list B)
3. Mercs get hit harder, not because we lack variety, but how many more /character/ units are there for mercs compared to other factions. Its the reduction is overlap that hurts.
4. Mercs also get hit harder than anyone else (minions excluded here, but still relevant to subject matter) in that other factions can solve a character restriction by snagging the mercenary character to fill in the gap, but this is a one-way street, as Mercs cannot just snag character solos from other armies with the same ease.

I have no interest in Talion or Searforge. Luckily, I think I can pull off (with some effort) 4* (my quick-in is 4* heavy) and highborn (fiona the black is of higher interest with/in highborn).

[Rollis]

My main force has been straight Searforge for a long time. In casual games, I'd just make a list and go. However, I decided I wanted to get a lot of experience with specific lists for tournaments, and therefore forced myself to use the character restrictions. And, at first, it was really really painful. In a force that has a total of 4 solos, and 3 of them being characters...well, you get the idea. Not having Thor in both lists was really disappointing at first, but I got used to it.

Even with other contracts, or tiers, or even (to a lesser extent) factions, having character restrictions can be stressful at first. For mercs specifically, we rely on the solos a lot more than other armies would. Is it a huge detriment for Mercs as a whole to adhere to the restrictions? I don't think so. Does it occasionally make things more difficult? Of course. If you're playing two similar lists it forces you to think about the decisions more before even putting models on a table.

[absent]

Aiyana and holt, wishnailer, and rhupert are the ones you feel the sting on most often imo

Aiyana and holt aren't just a need for dealing with armor, they also are a need against cryx (incorporeal) and a lot of menoth (armor and choir safe passage) so you need aiyana and holt in your anti menoth and anti cryx lists very often, and to face facts most merc lists are not good against menoth and cryx, so you really have to work hard to make up for that problem or just accept that some of those matchups are going to outright hose you, which is a serious problem in a tournament when those 2 factions are so powerful

Wishnailer makes a lot of our odder caster choices (imo) much better, fiona, bart, even mcbain, all really like that guy, so limitting him can really cut down on your bench depth, i can't go to those casters nearly as often

Rhupert, we need pathfinder and fearless very often on a ton of our troopers, almost none have even a banner for cmd rerolls or are fearless, and almost none have pathfinder, and both of those can cost you a game very easily. In order to replace him i need both rockbottom and saxon, only possible in 4* and twice the points, though to be fair you get 2 good guns out of the deal and some flexibility, it's still a big requirement to be both 4* and spend more points.

maybe mercs will get some UA's that give pathfinder and flags, or a couple more answers to menoth and cryx, or some variety of models that really help some of the less overtly powerful casters, and these issues will vanish, but even then i don't see why these models should be restricted, but things like journeyman warcaster, squire, vassall, the list goes on, aren't, just because of a naming difference.

Anyway someone pull the soapbox out from under me and lets move on with life =)

Just on a more strategic note, if you do have gunmages in one list you might not need A&H as bad, if you have more jack heavy list, then rhupert you dont' need as bad, and wishnailer is great but only a few casters really hate missing him, and he's pretty new so it's just "how did you survive without him before, do that" so yeah it's totally doable to go character restrict, again my point is just that it's arbitrary, and cuts your options way down on 2-list set ups, even more on 3&4, just because of how many of our units and support solo's are character. I just feel like Character restricts doesn't acheive it's goal enough for how much it screws up mercs for no real reason, even screwing up khador and cygnar for no reason is kinda silly, they don't seem to win as many tournaments as legion and cryx, who it effects far less.

[Ger]

A few non character support models that have *Actions that can only affect Friendly Faction (so the main factions can't get benefit from them) would be pretty useful.

So would more varied non-character esque solos are in order?

I'm actually at the point where I don't even think mercs need Hymn of Battle a +2/+2. Mercs just need a non-character way to give our jacks +1/+1. Though that may be a different discussion. I have a lot of points to make about it.

[absent]

I really think choir in mercs would be a big mistake just because of how cheap and awesome our jacks are, Choir on nomads would be a real problem for a lot of people. I think merc jacks are pretty fair for what they cost and do, though i think PP did drop the ball just a tiny bit not making the rover PS 18.

But i would like to see some non character steelhead and dwarf solo's that helped those units, forgegaurd and steelhead halbs are great, but i feel like the other units could use a little love.

[FearMeMortals]

People seem to think that I'm saying merc's need a choir. We don't. That would be boring.

[hamsandwich50]

I think a non character arcanist like model would be great as opposed to a choir like thing, basically a mechanic who can help jacks out. I would like to see him be a steelhead so that means he probably wouldn't have any acantrik ability. But a two point solo with repair and tune up or something would be awesome.

The thing to remember about the choir is that menoth jacks are designed with the choir in mind so a few merc jacks would just be op by a +2/+2.