Cygnar v. Terminus

[Sardonic Artery]

Okay, we touched on this in the thread that shall not be named, but some of us thought that Terminus was hard to face as a Cygnar player (I'm in that camp, save eStryker to the face), others did not. As per usual, hold the comments on player skill and trolling; we've been (rightfully) thread-locked enough these days.

Here's what we've got so far. Please add your general rules for facing Big Flappy:

1. Take eStryker (caster charge, three-dice overload, and then there was much rejoicing)

2. Kill his sacrificial pawn targets first if you're trying to take him out at range (remember, if the pawn isn't an eligible target, it can't take the bullet... right?). EDIT: Clarified below: Nope, SacPawn doesn't care about targeting, Shield Guard does.

3. A fully loaded jack to the face is usually a better option

4. Wait out the aftermath of his feat turn. Even eStryker (usually) can't overload a starting discrepancy of dice -14.

[PG_Tommeh]

eCaine has a pretty decent matchup since he's able to magic bullet out whatever is repopulating his meatshield, while he also still has a decent amount of oomph to hurt Terminus.
Either Eiryss is valuable in the matchup provided you have means to remove his meat shield.

I kind of like pNemo against him as he has the tools to shred his infantry, and generally packs more heavy hitters to kill the lich lord. The fact that Nemo's squishy doesn't really matter as much since if Terminus gets to your caster, you generally lose anyway. More jacks also means less souls on his feat turn.
eStryker, as mentioned can overpower for 3 dice to kill Termy, besides his feat turn.
pHaley can keep him at bay but will really need some heavy hitters to actually kill him. Chain lightning helps kill the infantry though.
pCaine can clear out a lot of infantry in a hurry and thunderstrike Terminus over whatever is hiding behind him.
Siege can work, but Terminus is one of those casters that has a very nice chance against Breach.

Darius, although being our worst caster, actually has a fairly good matchup against Terminus as he won't be getting a lot of souls and with jackhammer he can generate enough attacks out of a heavy to start damaging Termy; as soon as Terminus needs to start spending focus to handle with a threat, he becomes more vulnerable.

[Sardonic Artery]

Forgot to put up the Eiryss focus-drop bolt -- that's something I've relied on, too. Thanks for the thoughts, Tommeh.

[RidetheLightning]

Ok, so I'm new to some match ups and is Terminus considered a bad one just because of Sacrificial Pawn? Is there any other abilities that get in the way of our shooty stuff?

[ShepMachine]

I've actually bee able to use my eHaley list successfully against unbalanced knuckledragger versions of terminus, and more thoughtful, well rounded versions.

The secret has been to always have the centurion and lady aiyanna on-deck. With the shooting that eHaley usually brings, it is very simple to clear a nice spot for the centurion to land that is within 2" of terminus. With kiss of lyliss (which can't be sac pawned) and a temporal acceleration + 4 focus centurion, that is a likley caster kill from 15".

That threat creates board control, terminus has to stay back or hug linear obstacles, and he has to create tarpits in front of himself. Tarpits you can just shoot away at your leisure.

I love it when terminus players go all-in on bane knights, and that is when eHaley can really go off. They are incredibly easy to kill, and tough with no revielle doesn't add any functional survivability to them against ranged units. Shoot them until they fall down, then shoot the next one, make sure you aren't within 7" of any of the knocked down ones, etc.

Of course there are just certain scenarios where eHaley isn't going to be able to go in against terminus, and you might want to reach for eStryker, something like incursion. Incursion is very difficult for us against nearly everyone, so thats no surprise.

Also be careful advocating eEiryss against Terminus. Her crossbow bolt can be sac pawned, and that won't remove his focus stack.

In terms of his feat. Gunlines really just mess it up, if you aren't feeding in tarpits for him to chop through, he can't get souls, if you are running def 15 models like ATGM and Nyss and you are dismantling his army from range, staying safely away, then he is always going to have to respect your reach jack.

I guess I'll just add, the only reason cygnar should be having an issue with him is if they don't have something that can take down an armor 24ish heavy (which every balanced list should have), or the tool they were going to use to take the heavy out was shooting, or they don't have enough shooting to clear out a space for a reach heavy to end up within 2" of him.

eHaley's jack bullet, either nemo's heavy jack, eStryker, and even a gallant in constance blaize's list (unless he turtles so hard that he drops ravager), even Kraye would work if you added aiyanna and holt to his list.

Just check your list to make sure you have something that can melee down terminus on non-feat turn, and make sure that it out-threats him, either through speed or some other mechanic. They certainly won't be shooting your tool before you get to use it.

But then we get to what I am truly scared of facing. Terminus lists that have meaningful ranged capabilities. Once a good cryx player can cripple your terminus answers from range, while behind a tough undead screen, then they can really just take over.

Thankfully, no one really does that.

[Sardonic Artery]

Yeah, for most players Cryx's ranged ends with spells and Pistol Wraiths.

[Ysthrall]

I have played infrequently against Terminus. I tried a Kraye list against him, and issues clearing his infantry swarm. But with a little more thought, I could probably have done better. I came close to a kill with a loaded stormclad on kraye's feat (as electroleap is simultaneous, and can kill all his thralls before Sac Pawn), but my opponent did very well on all his tough rolls.

How about a eNemo list with few infantry and lots of jacks?

pHaley with long gunners for plenty of clearance?

[vintersbastard]

2. Kill his sacrificial pawn targets first if you're trying to take him out at range (remember, if the pawn isn't an eligible target, it can't take the bullet... right?)

Nope, SacPawn doesn't care about targeting, Shield Guard does.

I came close to a kill with a loaded stormclad on kraye's feat (as electroleap is simultaneous, and can kill all his thralls before Sac Pawn),

How is that relevant? SacPawn is only against ranged attacks, and the Stormclad only has ROF 1.

[Katkiller 5]

Use eHaley and nail him with Time bomb to keep him slowed and unable to charge you. TK can also help to yank him or a meat shield around.

[WindlordRyu]

Play eStryker, and try to go for a scenario win. Use models which makes it hard for infantry to get to you (Cyclone, Black 13th etc.) so that Terminus himself will have to get into the combat or have his swarm slowly whittled away by ranged attacks. As long as you manage to keep him from getting way to many souls you should have a chance to kill him.

Or use lists that are very jack heavy.

[Robert Shepherd]

My eHaley list of choice is a very aggressive melee-centric one, and it has bent terminus over a barrel each time I've faced him. The secret ingredient is Anastasia di Bray; Terminus just straight up has trouble stopping you from triggering Espionage, which is a huge game-changer.

Then, Stormclad to the face.

[Defenstrator]

Is that the Steelhead list?

[BakerGaspy]

As a Terminus player it ruins my day when my Cygnar friend brings eCaine and B13 to destroy the Wither Shadow Combine and massive infantry damage. That and a hunter if you can clear off the pawns for a round.

[Robert Shepherd]

Is that the Steelhead list?

That was the one. Think I prefer Nyss in the current iteration, though.

[Ysthrall]

Vintnersbastard: Sorry, it's been a while since I played, and I thought that he had Sac Pawn against any and all melee attacks. Which e-leap would help with, I think. But as it's ranged, you're reduced to the original issue of clearing a path. In which case a jack bullet wioth reach and a high POW waepon (Stormclad) does eem like a solution. Alas, I doubt I will encounter Terminus any time soon to test this...

[MollyHatchet]

Thank you Sardonic Artery for starting this one... I had thaught about it, but most of the threads I had started seemed to die in short order.

Most of the time if I havent killed him by turn two, the game tends to drag a bit more then I like. In fact of those games that I have one against him, it was the bottom of turn two (I went second) that I killed him in one game... shocked the heck out of the player. He was so mad about that one that he wanted a second shot at Stryker2... and just about got him again if I had rolled just a LITTLE better on the 3 dice overload. Stupid +4 power.

He was a little miffed from the game earlier where I killed Mortenebra turn two with Siege... both doing tier 4 lists.

Big Flappy

Is it bad that I find it amusing that that is the nickname I gave him in the other thread?

[isawatsuke]

:/ why we have topic for this? Take estryker and not the range assasins and you should be good to go.

You should have a few guns in your estryker list to clear a charge lane anyway and best buddy runewood there for pathfinder too.

[gelfy]

:/ why we have topic for this? Take estryker and not the range assasins and you should be good to go.

You should have a few guns in your estryker list to clear a charge lane anyway and best buddy runewood there for pathfinder too.

Possibly because these Guys are looking For a golden nugget we all may have looked over. i actually approve of threads where we pool our knowledge on how to beat a caster.

Even though i may troll in trollable threads i do have a heart :3 Kudos.


xoxo
GG

[DontStop]

I have only played Terminus 3 times but every game ends with a Full Tilted Stormclad to the face (everytime Termy was camping 5 focus atm). I haven't had a problem clearing room but my Kraye list includes a Cyclone and a Sentinel or Minuteman (to clear infantry). I also run Harlen Versh a lot with Kraye and that helps clear too. I always have A&H in my list so thats two more infantry dead. OH yeah, I've landed Harm on Terminus every attempt which helps a ton vs. 23 ARM. So maybe all the stars have been aligned but he hasn't been a problem yet.

[isawatsuke]

Possibly because these Guys are looking For a golden nugget we all may have looked over. i actually approve of threads where we pool our knowledge on how to beat a caster.

Even though i may troll in trollable threads i do have a heart :3 Kudos.


xoxo
GG

But terminus is a mid to low tier cryx caster. We should have one for the denny's or the egaspy's.

[Sardonic Artery]

But terminus is a mid to low tier cryx caster. We should have one for the denny's or the egaspy's.

Feel free to fire it up, although I have less problem with the Dennys (I play them enough).

[Sardonic Artery]

Thank you Sardonic Artery for starting this one... I had thaught about it, but most of the threads I had started seemed to die in short order.

Is it bad that I find it amusing that that is the nickname I gave him in the other thread?

You're welcome, sir, and yes, I ganked "Big Flappy" from you.

[Sacredsouless]

Frankly Terminous gives me a bit of a fit because he has so many infantry. My preferred casters are Stryker2 and Kara. Since Avenger isn't out (and I don't plan on buying grenadiers), my aoe options are limited to what ever a unit can do. I got the B13, but thats it for stealth seeing (outside of you know, Kara and a GMCA or two).

[Sardonic Artery]

As someone noted in another thread, Terminus cannot sac pawn for a magic attack.

[Rolling_Thunder]

wait, Terminus is a low-tier cryx caster? maybe I shouldn't specifically plan for him in every pairing of tournament casters that I run. He scares me.

[Chopsworth]

If I ever suspect to be going up against Terminus I bring H&J and Dougal. There has never been a game where the constant barrage of AoEs hasn't wiped up a handful of infantry every turn. This has always given me the room to charge a 'Jack in at an overextended/overconfident Terminus.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Terminus is why I want to borrow my friend's Madhammer and battlegroup when I want to bring Mercs.

Seriously, dude is too scary to be "mid-tier".

[jonconcarne]

Terminus is why I want to borrow my friend's Madhammer and battlegroup when I want to bring Mercs.

Seriously, dude is too scary to be "mid-tier".

It's more of he has a few pretty bad matchups. He's either rock solid A status, or getting his behind handed to him. eHaley should in general have a good time with him, depending on his build.

[PG_Tamwulf]

I have used a Kara Sloan Tier 4 list against Terminus to great success! Also, a pHaley Tier list with lots of Long Gunners.

Come to think of it, using Long Gunners against the typical Pirate Terminus list has always resulted in a victory for me. Just have to get rid of that Quarter Master....

[Griffin839]

I just beat him @35pts the other day with Storm themed Kara. Feat turn Thunderhead and assaulting stormblades did nasty nasty things to his swarm army and left terminus exposed. Stormclad charged in and finished the job.

Kara +6
-Stormclad 10
-Thunderhead 12
-Squire 2
Stormblades 5
-UA 3
-WAx2 2
Lady Aiyana and Master Holt 4
Reinholdt 1
Rhupert 2

[Sardonic Artery]

Nice list, but how do you save the blades from dying (save tough)?

wait, Terminus is a low-tier cryx caster? maybe I shouldn't specifically plan for him in every pairing of tournament casters that I run. He scares me.

I'm with you. Maybe it's just that a local Cryx player has consistently played him into greatness, but he's a hard match up for me.

[Griffin839]

Nice list, but how do you save the blades from dying (save tough)?



I'm with you. Maybe it's just that a local Cryx player has consistently played him into greatness, but he's a hard match up for me.

Misdirection mostly. When I put this army on the table, people typically go "OMG Thunderhead needs to die! Then they see Stormclad and go "OMG that also needs to die!" Then they read Sloan's card and go "OMG weaponmaster!?!?! I need to watch out for that!"

At 50pts I add in Laddermore and Stormlances, and they have a similar effect.

It keeps them so pre-occupied that they forget about how nasty the stormblade deathstar can be with her.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I just beat him @35pts the other day with Storm themed Kara. Feat turn Thunderhead and assaulting stormblades did nasty nasty things to his swarm army and left terminus exposed. Stormclad charged in and finished the job.

Kara +6
-Stormclad 10
-Thunderhead 12
-Squire 2
Stormblades 5
-UA 3
-WAx2 2
Lady Aiyana and Master Holt 4
Reinholdt 1
Rhupert 2

Nice list, but how do you save the blades from dying (save tough)?

I've played a similar list, though admittedly not against Terminus. The Blades aren't in there to survive for long, just kill all they can with the assault. That said, there are enough of them that you can take some hits on the way in and still deliver a huge hit.

[Sardonic Artery]

Also, no Arlan for T-head? Cardinal sin!

[Griffin839]

Also, no Arlan for T-head? Cardinal sin!

Kara has refuge.

[Sardonic Artery]

Kara has refuge.

You can't hit then pulse without taking a free strike though. That's the issue.