Cracking Heavy Armor

[a spastic ninja]

Posted in list discussion, moving to main board.

So I've been playing a few months and I've been having trouble cracking heavy armor. One of my friends runs Karchev with a Destroyer, Devastator, Juggernaut, Beast 09 and Behemoth. Most of his lists are 3 or more of those 'jacks with the only infantry being mechanics. Every match we play he marches right up the middle of the field towing and keeping Karchev surrounded with jacks until the Devastator can charge my line and explode everywhere. I've tried everything I can think of to counter it but nothing seems to work; he keeps Karchev too well protected for me to get to him. Its gotten to the point where I don't even want to play against him because its not even an interesting game.

How do we deal with that much heavy armor? The Devastator is the biggest problem since knocking it down doesn't even reduce the armor.

[AJ the Ronin]

Sentinels. Phoenix, Banshee and Mantricore with an Arcanist. Mini-feating Halberdiers on a charge.

If you want to go range, MHSF, CRA'ing Invictors and Archers. Add Ossy. Kill stuff.

Add Aiyana for extra hurt.

Ghost Snipers and Eirys1 for 9 point of damage to a single 'jack, just in case.


Edit: And if he is keeping them very close, slam with 'jack, disrupt Karchave with Eiryss1. Good luck, shaking and doing anything else.

[NEoJoe]

When fighting a list like that, the first thing you should note is his single ranged attack (not counting Karchev's spray). If he's only got mechanics, he has ZERO way of messing with your positioning. He's giving you all sorts of power right there.

Next, he has very few attacks per round. A Juggy hitting an infantry guy or two is a win for you. If you put Myrmidons in front of that, they'll die. If you put three infantry guys in front of that, they'll die too, but that's >3 points. His whole army is only good at wrecking heavies, except for Rain of Death, which can kill more than a couple guys.

Basically, his list is pretty fast, but cannot deal with dude-swarms very well, hates weaponmasters, and doesn't care for high-powered gunshots.

... eh, I just realized I'm getting into a really complicated "how to beat his list" discussion. Generic answers vs heavy armor are Sentinels, Stormall Archers, Aiyana and Holt, Ossyan's Feat, Pain Knight, and Combo-Smite from the Magister. If you can bring that stuff to bear, you'll be doing fine.

[Barakiel]

If you're determined to kill those Jacks, then Ossyan's feat will probably serve you well here. Mage Hunter Strike Force with Ossyan's Feat + Jack Hunter can do a bit of damage, and Invictors as well as Myrmidon shooting can do some damage as well. We have a lot of ways to boost our Myrmidon movement, so getting a charge off with an Arcanist-boosted Phoenix/Discordia/etc. can help scrap a Khador heavy. In truth though, you're probably better off playing to the objective or going for the assassination in your games, rather than trying to grind down those big Khador jacks. Ossyan, Hypnos and Eiryss can achieve a lot of control over an opposing jack-heavy list, giving you the flexibility to try and achieve a caster kill.

[Demeritus]

Bring Epic Eiryss to strip off his upkeeps. Bring Banshees not only for hitting power but for a knock down shot that he will not have the focus to shake off. Also use Sentinels as there is very little that they cannot crack, as for the Devastator just keep knocking it down so it will be very slow or use battle mages who are immune to its Rain of Death since it is blast damage. Or use Discordia/Artificer to keep your guys safe from blast damage and laugh as it opens up and does nothing and will die the following turn.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

While very solid, if you know that this is what you are going to be facing, this should be fairly easy to defeat. Snipers, Eiryss, and Stormfalls will do a lot with any caster. MHSF can do a bit on their own, but they can also down mechancis with ease. Sentinels can really REALLY hurt them. A&H will reduce ARM and if you bring Ossyan, then you should have a turn where two-ish heavies die.

Yeah, he's hard to hurt, but he lacks a lot of options here. He will be forced to engage you and you should be able to dictate a lot of when and how that occurs.

[joelker41]

On the Devastator either manticores + aiyana + combo smite I dice +2 on a charge. Each bought attack is dice-3.

Ret does rely on rolling at or above average a lot in my experience. The utter destruction that sentinels and Stormfalls +Kiss+ Ossyan = dead things on average to below average.

If damaging a Devastator is an issue, a two hand throw out of a zone always works scenario wise LOL.

[a spastic ninja]

Hmmm... Given this advice I've put together a list using stuff I currently own.

50 Points
Ossy
Banshee
Sylys

Max Invictors w/ Off
Max Sentinals w/ Off
Max Mage Hunters w/ Off
pEiryss
Issyen
Artificer

Use the artificer to protect the MHSF and Invicts from Behemoths guns while the Sentinals close under Quicken. Use the Sents to do some damage and tie him up while the MHSF, Archers, Invicts get into position for feat turn. Hopefully he wont have sidearms up and I can knockdown someone with the Banshee, then Eiryss to remove the focus, feat, wall of bullets. Issyen for cleanup/flanking mechanics.

Given his willingness to throw away his feat just for pathfinder the AFG's templates wont slow him down much. The big problem will be Beasts thresher if he gets close but he and the Devestator would be the prime targets for the Sentinals to bog down.

Edit: Actually, under the Artificer or Discordia the Devestator wouldnt even be that much of a threat.

[Calcifar]

With ossy, take Hypnos instead of the Banshee, that gun is perfect vs heavy spam.

[bakaryu]

Garryth absolutely ruins Karchev in a very very bad way. It is impossible for him to get the alpha strike on Garryth and very very easy indeed for him to get the alpha strike on Karchev.

Remember that Garryth's feat also shuts down place effects, so he cannot tow his jack brigade and neither can any model in Garryth's control area spend focus, so this shuts down his Arcantrik Turbine and Unearthly Rage.

This can give the MHSF a solid two rounds of shooting at Karchev (remember he is damaged as per a warjack so Jack Hunter works against him) as well as the usual brigade of Assassins and Garryth himself to come in the turn after his feat. Add in Death Sentence just to be sure that you are not going to miss with any attacks and its all going to be gravy.

[bakaryu]

Also when fighting Devastators (and Demolishers when the model comes out) remember that against the Mage Hunter Assassin they are only ARM17 thanks to chain weapon, this should mean that an assassin on the charge will average 12 damage and can easily do a lot more, especially with Kiss from Aiyana.

[joelker41]

Also when fighting Devastators (and Demolishers when the model comes out) remember that against the Mage Hunter Assassin they are only ARM17 thanks to chain weapon, this should mean that an assassin on the charge will average 12 damage and can easily do a lot more, especially with Kiss from Aiyana.

No, they aren't shields or bucklers, they just up their armor by +4 for each.

Also you are definitely underselling Karchev a bit. With Tow, Trample, and unearthly rage (which can easily be cast outside garryth's feat range) and feat, any reach Jack he has can hit something roughly 20" away from where they started (9 with +2 speed on a karchev trample, unearthly range + feat for free charges + boosted attack rolls).

You can simply drop the Jack's off out of garryth's bubble and then have them charge in and wreck whatever is clever.

I'm not saying that karchev is a bad matchup for Garryth, lets just hold off on the "completely ruins" label.

[bakaryu]

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that they count as shields, and lose their benefit against the chain weapon advantage?

And as per the Karchev threat range, bear in mind that Garryth can feat and charge for a 22" bubble threat (not counting Mirage). As I said, if you play Garryth correctly then Karchev should never ever get to bring down the alpha strike against him, he will always be able to catch Karchev in his feat first, and subject him to a good two round's worth of punishment.

[Kallas]

Against that list specifically?

Ossyan + full MHSF w/UA = win.

If he turns around after towing and remains bricked up you tag one of the towed jacks with the Chronophage Cannon, feat and have the MHSF pump eleven Arcane Assassin, Jack Hunting, Gravity Well-buffed shots straight through the wall into Karchev's ARM 19 metal arse.

For support, HSBM and Magisters will really help curtail the Devastator (either he consistently get slammed by a Magister or open up trying to punch it) and the push-pull will really muss up his assault force by breaking them apart.

Honestly, we have possibly the best answer for Karchev ever.

[AJ the Ronin]

Kallas hit one very important thing: against that kind of Karchev list go for him and ignore the 'jacks. Slam them, disrupt them, whatever but go for the 'caster.

The thing is if you can total one of his 'jacks you can kill him.

[a spastic ninja]

Awesome, thanks for the help guys.

[Lord Sessadore]

Against this particular list, Ossyan feat + MHSF almost seal the deal themselves, the rest of your list is kind of gravy. MHSF don't care about sidearms, so against DEF 12 (assuming Ossyan can't tag one of Karchev's buddies with his cannon) about 6 of the 11 hit at POW 10 + 4d6 = around 30 damage. If you can knock down a screening jack with the Banshee, Invictors or Stormfalls should finish him easily. If he spun around to tow farther or if Ossyan can tag him with the chronophage cannon or if they can aim the MHSF will probably kill Karchev on their own. If more than one of those three apply, he's in big, big trouble. Keep in mind that Ossyan could put Quicken on himself and charge something to get 25" threat on his feat bubble, or even 23" without quicken.

Edit: Kallas hit this point 2 hours before me, I just didn't see it because I didn't refresh the page since loading it before supper. >.<

I suppose another caster you could try would be Rahn - use the feat and mages to peel off the heavies and then pull Karchev forward, then eat him with Sentinels and maybe a Phoenix. In this case, Sentinels eat Karchev even better than the MHSF in the Ossyan example - MAT 7 (if the mages did their job, Karchev isn't benefitting from sidearms or is knocked down) and POW 12+4d6 means each hit is putting 7 damage through on average. 5 hits should do the job, and that's assuming Rahn and his mages did zero damage.

More generally, as others have said, armor cracking in Ret = Sentinels, Stormfalls, Invictors, (MHSF against jacks), Ossyan with his feat, Aiyanna and Holt, concentrated powered Phoenix or Banshee or Manticore (combo smite is a trap unless you're hitting ARM 24+!), Pain Knight, MHA, magister combo smite, ghost snipers + pEiryss, etc... The tools are there, just need to deliver them.

[Derikari]

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that they count as shields, and lose their benefit against the chain weapon advantage?

The weapons are called shield fists, but don't have the shield advantage.

[leo_neil316]

Don't forget halbediers! Good front line that is fast moving (especially with ossyan) tough against range (especially with ossyan) and can rip through jacks (especially with.... the u/a).

[Marshal Torrick]

Halbies will have a hard time stopping much as they 'll just get trampled over to get to your caster.

[Dragontailxx]

Uhm, I have trouble personally with this list, additionally, you guys suggesting that MHSF's can use their jack hunter ability on Karchev are totally forgetting that under Karchev's OWN rules he is NOT a warjack and cannot be damaged as one.

[Lord Sessadore]

Uhm, I have trouble personally with this list, additionally, you guys suggesting that MHSF's can use their jack hunter ability on Karchev are totally forgetting that under Karchev's OWN rules he is NOT a warjack and cannot be damaged as one.

Read again. "He ... suffers damage as a warjack. ... Effects modifying the amount of damage to or the manner in which damage is applied to a warjack also apply to him."

That, and the infernals agree with that interpretation, so it's the correct one.

[Dragontailxx]

Read again. "He ... suffers damage as a warjack. ... Effects modifying the amount of damage to or the manner in which damage is applied to a warjack also apply to him."

That, and the infernals agree with that interpretation, so it's the correct one.

Daaaaaaaamn, I was very much misled by my Khador opponent! I just re-read the rule and you're right, I apologise, I was led to believe (and thus had some VERY tough games against him) that because he is not a jack nor a warrior, that he doesn't take jack damage. Although he probably didn't realise this it does mean I actually feel I stand a chance against him!

[Lord Sessadore]

Daaaaaaaamn, I was very much misled by my Khador opponent! I just re-read the rule and you're right, I apologise, I was led to believe (and thus had some VERY tough games against him) that because he is not a jack nor a warrior, that he doesn't take jack damage. Although he probably didn't realise this it does mean I actually feel I stand a chance against him!

No worries, it happens.

For what it's worth, even if Karchev didn't take jack damage, Ossyan would be a good answer. Basically same deal, except you'd use Invictors and Stormfalls instead. Sprinkle in shots from high-pow jacks (Banshee is high on this list, good combo of POW and range), Eiryss (either version) and Ghost Snipers or MHA's to taste. As was said above - if you can kill one of his jacks, you can kill Karchev.

[leo_neil316]

Halbies will have a hard time stopping much as they 'll just get trampled over to get to your caster.

Halbadiers have reach which means some of them should still be getting free strikes, and just don't leave places for heavy warjacks to stand next to your caster.

More importantly they have a 11" threat range, 13 with Garyth or Ossyan and have a turn of MAT 8 POW 14 on the charge. 4 to 5 damage a guy to a khador heavy, there's 11 of them. Khador jacks have 34 boxes.