I'm a purist player, am I really missing out?

[RidetheLightning]

By now, it has become painfully obvious that many Cygnar players that list ideas and thoughts on the forums here are strong supporters of utilizing Mercenaries to shore up the weaknesses that Cygnar has. Now I understand that any model must be limited by their faction's disadvantages to a degree, but am I really being a bad player clinging to my ideals of purity? If at all possible, I would appreciate some helpful advice! I am NOT discrediting Cygnar/Merc players but I am hoping to find validation of my play style or further/helpful advice for the opposite style.

[Zargar]

I guess it depends what level youre playing on. I've done really well with playing pure Cygnar in my local meta, but i wouldnt call my meta competitive. I wouldnt even have considered mercs if i hadnt been reading these boards, and now im considering it :P *shrug* i wouldnt worry too much about it unless you want to win some big tourney, then you should optimize as much as you can

[Katkiller 5]

I'm also a "purist", both in my Circle and soon to be in my Cygnar. I wasn't in Mk 1 with my Cryx, but I did become one once Mk 2 rolled out.

Personally, I don't feel that you need to add mercs to any faction. Any army is capable of winning any game, local meta, major tourney, or what have you, as long as you are a capable enough player to run it.

Then again, I'm an "extreme" purist. Character jacks/beasts only are used with their specific war-nouns, and I don't touch the unaffiliated ones (i'm probably the only Cryx player to have never so much as touched the Deathjack, despite playing the faction for two years). So take my advice with a grain of salt

[Jake the Dog]

I'm a purist as well, but my Cygnar army is unassembled and/or on preorder (Stormwall, Nemo3). The only Merc I'm thinking of using is Reinholdt and that is because all he does is help my guns.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I ran without mercs for at least half of MK I, and I tried to hold onto that in MKII. Then I bought boomhowlers on a whim and was shocked at just how much easier it was to play with a unit that was just good. No bull**** about suriving if I buy this solo and added that buff from my warcaster, no hoops to jump through to get solid damage. Just starting with a solid unit. Putting Murdoch in there for some warcasters helped, but it was eye opening just how much a survivable unit with solid damage was desperately lacking in Cygnar. Since then I've added Alexia and am thinking about how much Forge Guard or Steel Heads might add to my game.

So yea, you can play faction pure, but in Cygnar doing so is handicapping. You can win, but you're deliberately playing down. That might not be a big deal for you or your area (and there's no judgement there), but the difference can be night and day for some players.

[PG_Agamemnon]

I plan pure generally... but only because I want to. Reinholdt does make it into all my Siege/Sloan/Nemo2 lists but other than that no other mercs see table time. I am excluding Versh in Constance theme lists mind you. I consider him in faction since it is a requirement to get to T4.

Right now my only painted mercs are;
Reinholdt- Seige, Sloan, Nemo2
Rhupert- Does not see much table time since Runewood released
Versh- Only played with Constance
Eyriss1- Cant remember the last time she came out to play.

My only reason for not playing more mercs is because I cant get all the in faction toys on the table I want to in any single game. Much less unpainted mercs.

[Sacredsouless]

Eh, I go about 50/50 win/loss ("huh, gotta go soon, let me do something crazy real quick" are my famous last words) and the only merc I frequently use is Reinholdt with Kara. I do have several others, but I don't really use them. All the other lists I plan on building for other factions are tier'ed, so no mercs (usually) in those. Maybe if I do Constance I'll pick up whats-his-name, but otherwise I'm pretty purist.

[Brettman008]

Quite simply you are handicapping yourself. Personally, I feel mercs are a vital aspect to Cygnar list construction and don't feel any need or desire to create self-imposed restrictions on list construction. I'm not saying you can't build good lists without mercs (my eStryker list currently doesn't have any mercs but is quite formidable). However, not all casters have the luxury of staying completely in faction. In fact, 3 out of our widely considered top 4 (eHaley, Siege, eCaine and eStryker) have no mention of faction only buffs on their cards.

[gelfy]

purist. your missing out.

[Crate123]

If you are 100% purist then yeah you are handicapping yourself badly. If you at least accept the solos that mercs have to offer, then you can do pretty decent without the units.

[MollyHatchet]

For the most part I ama "purist" when it comes to units. (Are Aiyanna and Holt considered a unit? If so, blast...) Solo's I have no problem using at all.

Eiryss, Angel of Retribution-Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist-Rhupert Corvolo, Piper of Ord-Reinholt, Gobber Speculator-Harlan Versh, Illuminated One-Ragman

I USED to have full units (And when I mean full I mean all models able to be fielded at one time) of Devil Dogs and Alecia Ciannor & the Risen, but I traded those off for something. (I dont even remember what anymore its been long enough.) I keep thinking about getting Boomhowlers just to see what all the hooplah is about, but I havent pulled that trigger yet. Maybe one of these days I will start a Merc army and give me a reason to do it anyway.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Faction purity is fine. I am one as well with my Khador (and they are my only force.)

Cygnar is balanced and fine even without mercenaries, if your looking to play competatively, you just have to ignore the crutches that other people say and find out your own style.

Being great with the units you have is far better than anyone who picks up Nyss Hunters and hope to take the day with them.

[jlav]

I'm a little confused by the term "purist". If you're going to be purist about anything, it should be the army described in the stories, and not the swan on the flag. And when I read the books, I see mercenaries all over the Cygnar army. It's a part of who they are. I consider myself a purist in the sense that I don't field an army that would not be where the battle is taking place, or in line with one of the stories I like. However don't missunderstand me, I am under no illusion; I am handicapping myself. But I do so for the insatiable love of theme games. Forget theme lists, I setup theme games that defy the balance of the game with obviously broken circumstances and have a blast even if I lose!

[phreaker187]

I run the occasional merc solo in my lists, but I never play with full units and I do just fine.

We don't need mercs to win, but they're fun to play with.

[Reemule]

Well, I think Siege, ECaine, Sloan, are balanced by Rhienholt.

PNemo does better with several Magic users. And those are Merc's.

General Nemo, Haley, Ehaley, Stryker, Stryker2, Darius, PCaine, Kraye don't need Merc's really.

Constance with Harlan is just good.

[RidetheLightning]

Thank you everyone for the advice thus far! I'm still looking into Reinholdt and Ragman because my favorite casters are Sloan, Siege and pNemo.

[Octavius_Maximus]

I'm a little confused by the term "purist". If you're going to be purist about anything, it should be the army described in the stories, and not the swan on the flag. And when I read the books, I see mercenaries all over the Cygnar army. It's a part of who they are. I consider myself a purist in the sense that I don't field an army that would not be where the battle is taking place, or in line with one of the stories I like. However don't missunderstand me, I am under no illusion; I am handicapping myself. But I do so for the insatiable love of theme games. Forget theme lists, I setup theme games that defy the balance of the game with obviously broken circumstances and have a blast even if I lose!

Actually, not so. Being a purist doesnt necessarily mean that you go with the stories at all. They are a guide, but its generally just a will to take a Cygnar army. In a game with so few models, it seems a shame to replace them with mercenaries. Especially when your not making decisions based on anything but points efficiency, such as replacing Long Gunners and Trenchers with Nyss Hunters with Murdoch

[Ysthrall]

There are some wonderfully thoughtful posts here

My Merc collection is Rupert, a Bokur, Victor Pendrake (who's Cygnar anyway), and the Ogrun Assault Corps. I played for years without mercs, I've played in tournies without mercs, and done fairly well (mercs in a list won't save you from forgetting your feat, being unable to roll 5+ on 3 dice, or misreading the scenario).

Only recently, trying to do something with the in-fluff "immigrant communities" of Trollkin and Ogrun, have I started using the Ogrun Assault Corps, and thats only in the one army build, "Stryker's Brick". They're nice, but not essential.

I'm also with Katkiller 5 on this one: Character jacks with their affiliates, character solos with their units if possible, and the B13th shouldn't make it to every damn battle. They have better things to do. I really grit my teeth at those armies composed entirely of characters. Not sure why, they just.... itch....

I applaud your decision to try to stay entirely Cygnar based, it's your choice, go for it.

No one can tell you "You're doing it wrong". If you are having fun, you're doing it right. There is no "correct" way to play this game.

[gelfy]

There are some wonderfully thoughtful posts here
the B13th shouldn't make it to every damn battle. They have better things to do. I really grit my teeth at those armies composed entirely of characters. Not sure why, they just.... itch....

I can understand lady alana and master Holts relationship. But if Ryan is Going to every battle No wonder she has 2 shots :P The poor gal is over Worked in work and leisure.


mercs are a Great additive to any force that allows them. and i agree if you dont want to use them as thats your choice.

The thing is the people that dont use the Allowable mercs are usually the first to start threads on How Cygnar isnt Competitive. and other Mwah threads.

In the end you have to choose whether you want to be competitive or not. mercs give us (cygnar) an even blade edge on the field of battle.


Till next time.

Stay classy Cygnar forums
im Gelfy Burgandy.

[Ysthrall]

I... erm... I actually agree with gelfy.

On one or two points.

If you want to use mercs, thats fine, they're there for extra flavour. If not, thats also fine. But if you deliberately choose not to take stuff, you lose a lot of wieght if you complain that Cygnar as a whole isn't competitive.

I, on the other hand, use very few mercs, and think Cygnar and my army builds are competitive

I think phreaker187 put it most succintcly so far...

[Rochr]

I can't deny the simple power of the Boomhowler + Jr. module. It brings something to the table that Cygnar just does not have on their own. A large unit that makes a big imprint on the board, hard to take down and also delivers a good punch that doesn't rely upon a bunch of other activations. Murdoch does give them an edge over pretty much anything else in our list. It is a fantastic unit and I would never go to any Steamroller tournament without them.

[Garath]

Dino Zar is dead on about Mercs- once you try a unit of Mercs in the right Cygnar list you find that ignoring those units is fighting an uphill battle.
I don't use Mercs in every list- My Kraye light jack list has none in fact. I'm going to give E Alexia a spin in that list- for fun and because I don't like to take duplicates of models if I can and she will be a nice cheap cav model with tricks to charge solos,cheap troops etc and collect those tokens.
My playing enviroment includes 2-3 competitive players and it's getting more and more competitive every day,since the player base has doubled in the last 2 months. We have a decent 100 or so member club and most people play WHFB ,tho some are drawn to metal and claws.
Going to tourneys isn't my thing ,did it with good results while playing 40k , been to two tourneys back in MK1 and it sorta feels like the special olympics...even if you win,you're still...

So Mercs or no mercs- I say go Cygnar pure if you wan't to but remember:
-sword knights
-storm guard
-storm blades
-trenchers
-long gunners
All those units are less effective in terms of price vs utility ,survivability and damage output then Boomhowler and CO and Nyss hunters

With all respect to those that will find a specific caster and combo that proves me wrong remember that if you don't need to pull shananigas of to be effective you have more real options in play . Unless we are using all possible traits of our models (immune to lightining and what not) we are not using the models to their full potential ,but we pay the points for them.
So whenever I see a post about Cygnar infantry being overcosted - it's not overcosted.

Cygnar infantry has many immunities and stats you often don't get to use (like double tap on longgunners) because the situation on the field is somewhat worse then in laboratory conditions where point values are calculated.
So either the person using the "overcosted" units hasn't learned how to use all those things, or he simply cannot use them in that situation for it's impossible to pull off. Regardless of that fact,you pay for it in cash and points.
That being said I'm not saying Cygnar is bad or that the faction cannot win- it can- but just not as easy with those units.

That's why we have mercs- let's face it people.

Most Merc units cost the same points as Cygnar units but instead of fancy stats and abilities you can sometimes use (and when it works it really works) - they couldn't give a rats ***, they just have higher damage output and better defensive abilities.
Or when Mercs are cheaper ,they again lack high stat you don't use anyway

[RidetheLightning]

This has been really awesome guys! I've only been posting for a short period by now, but I hate it when I read threads about this underpowered unit/model or this overcosted unit/model. I think those kind of players should have done more homework before buying into a faction they think has given them a raw deal. I have a strong feeling that I'll be looking more into Mercs after reading some of the helpful posts! I'm still going to finish of the Cygnar collection (just a handful of models left!) and then I'll read up on more of the Mercs that have been suggested!

[A8mew]

Way I see it, you can't play purist without including mercs.

After all, saying you will never run mercs (or just merc units) means you are willing to discard Murdoch. Can't leave a Trencher hanging like that.

[tankrandall]

but I hate it when I read threads about this underpowered unit/model or this overcosted unit/model.

Then run away from the Cyngar forums as fast as you can.

[Garath]

Again, people are complaining all the time , and I was one of them for a while- but after thinking about it for quite some time I realized Cygnar models are not overcosted.
We pay for abilities of our models and those abilities are situational so to take advantage of that we would need to create situations where it pays off-
Example: Unit of Stormguard is good if followed by Thunderhead- he can pulse and kill the enemy once Stormguard are engaged - they will be safe from pulse for they are immune to lightning.
If not for that immunity -that combo would be a bad ,bad idea but the unit would cost less points or have better stats for the points paid. you bet your sweet behind no one would call them overcosted if they had MAT 8 and SPD 6 and P+S 13 weaponmasters- and loose the shooting attack on the Sarge.

As it is ,they can get targeted by lightning and survive- so bouncing chain lightning off them is a good idea. But you're using a costly units to deal with solos. And focus...

(ok this is starting to sound like the begining of one of those 12 step programs)-so let's have a go:

- Hi everyone ,I'm Garath
- HI GARATH

-So I'm a wargamer and I play Cygnar
-(sounds of clapping and a teardrop here and there)

-I've been playing for 5 years now and I don't use Mercs
-(uncomfortable silence)

- But I'm going to change!!!
- (clapping )

-I'm gonna use Mercs from now on!!
-(clapping and cheers)

-I'm gonna make cheesey list from now on!!!
- (standing ovation)

-I'm gonna win tournaments and people will love to hate me and my faction!!!
-....at the far end of the audience a voice penetrates the clappinG... GO PLAY KHADOR OR LEGION!!!!

[iksander]

If your pure faction in a competitive environment yeah your handicapping yourself.

Cygnar has gaps in its model line up. For example Cygnar is boned as a beast when it comes to pathfinder (1 caster mitgates it and it takes half of his focus to do so, 1 unit has pathfinder), if your not willing to dump points into the solo tax (hi Rhupert, Runewood) your melee troops will pay for it.

Now does this matter in friendlies where you can just play Runewood? Not as much. In a Tourney setting which is default character restricted, it makes a difference. (I feel compelled to mention there are other ways Cygnar offsets it's crap melee range. Usually through hard Control options via the Haleys, Cyclone templates with the B13 mage Storm template, or dumping 6 points into trenchers to deny LOS against most things. Although people get devastatingly butthurt when Cygnar plays control. Easiest way to make a player eye roll is to mention you want to play Haley. Or Block LOS with smoke. )

I will say that if you kvetch about balance and aren't willing to use the full breadth of models available to Cygnar, yeah it's on your head for purposefully handicapping yourself in Cygnar.

[Ysthrall]

But Garath, I have a very good reason why Stormblades are much better (read more conveniant, easier, whatever) to include in my Cygnar lists than Nyss.

I already own, assembled and painted the 'blades. The Nyss are still on the LGS shelf...

[isawatsuke]

I ran without mercs for at least half of MK I, and I tried to hold onto that in MKII. Then I bought boomhowlers on a whim and was shocked at just how much easier it was to play with a unit that was just good. No bull**** about suriving if I buy this solo and added that buff from my warcaster, no hoops to jump through to get solid damage.

+1. I love it when people say blades are good because you can put deceleration/as/and tough on them. D: but if I put that on my forgeguard their def 12 arm 23 vs range. Nyss Def 17 /arm 16 vs range.

Yes you are playing at a handicap. Its not even about power level. Its about options. 30 options is better than 20. Your usually more likely to find better options in the bigger pool.

Asking Am I playing at a handicap if Im a purist is like Am I playing at a handicap if I only take cygnar models that have one pinky facial hair and one pinky outstretched.

And that's not a bad thing. Some people are fluff bunny's who dont really care about missing out on options as long as they get to play their theme.

[Garath]

This has something to do with the fact that like some other companies, PP too needs to sell models- so it's no wonder that Nyss are more competitive the Stormblades. Stormblades came out back in prime MK1 --loong time ago.
If Nyss wheren't a tad bit better ,nobody would by them - That's why we got Murdoch- so we would have topics like this where the point is to buy or not to buy a unit or not.
I pained Stormguard back in MK1...and they look good on my shelf. They will remain there for a time since I don't play EStryker (tried it-it was fun and I won but it's just not my thing) and I can't see them in any other list as it is.

[Griffin839]

I hate the concept of Murdoch and his equivalents. Im sure merc sales have gone up a lot for pp since they came out, and good for pp, but I believe its had a bad impact on the game. People are spoiled now, and instead of experimenting and developing new strategies, the game is stagnating with everyone and their mother taking Nyss, Boomhowlers, or Forgeguard.

[NotInKansas1911]

I hate the concept of Murdoch and his equivalents. Im sure merc sales have gone up a lot for pp since they came out, and good for pp, but I believe its had a bad impact on the game. People are spoiled now, and instead of experimenting and developing new strategies, the game is stagnating with everyone and their mother taking Nyss, Boomhowlers, or Forgeguard.

I disagree and I challenge the idea of faction purity strictly from a backtsory standpoint. I would say that a true "faction purist" would actually utilize mercenaries on a frequent basis.

Of all the nations, Cygnar is the most reliant on mercenaries to shore up its borders, its the most open to utilizing mercenaries and it has the deepest pockets with which to afford mercenaries. It has more mercenary unit options (and minion options in Pendrake, who is a faction model also, Alten Ashley, and Rorsch & Brine) and has the greatest ability to synergize with those units, especially with Murdoch.

My answer to much of the point-for-point difference between a warbeast and a warjack is to take Pendrake; afterall he is Cygnarian!



And regarding the idea of manipulating stats to make sales as people have mentioned, I think that is a weak argument. Mercenaries is practically a faction in its own right and people are comfortable playing them separately. And comparing Cylena to Stormblades is like comparing apples to oranges; they have entirely different roles. Also, these units were updated in mk ii to take some of that creep into account. I have both and I play with both depending on what I need them to do.

[Thebert]

umm... stormblades and nyss are different units... granted Nyss are a front line unit and have a statline to match

Nyss avg dmg = 18.5/22 on charge
Stormblade avg dmg = 22/25.5 on charge

Slightly different numbers... 'Blades just can't live on the front lines without buffs, which considering how much harder they hit on average I am okay with that.

[shaner]

To the OP- I truly believe that by not taking Mercs, you are missing out on a lot of fun and new tactics.

Granted, I am not a player on an uber competative level. I mostly enjoy playing for fun. I have found that by having access to most of the merc units actually makes Cygnar way more attractive for me. Why? ...because it allows us to try out way more stuff (tactics, etc). For example, Nyss allow us access to a Hordes unit (same with Boomhowler). The Nyss and Boomies provide us with a completely different tactic/strategy than a lot of our in-faction options. There was a lot of hate in the past concerning the Cygnaran Gunline....Gunline? What are we playing Imperial Guard here? I find that pretty boring. Mercs allow us to change up our lists in a bunch of different ways. For someone like me, the ADHD Kid, this keeps the faction fresh and fun. I also have Legion and Cryx...two of the most competative armies out there. That being said, I am almost always drawn to the Cygnar on the shelf because I can play a different list every time I play (should I choose to).

So, brother, I do think you are missing out on a lot. Hey, if you have the mercs for fun, nobody says you have to use them in a competative setting. You can be a purist in tournies if you want.

Later

[Nutcase168]

I run the occasional Merc Solo (Rhupert, Eiryss) but for the sake of my wallet I don't have merc units.

[JamesDiGriz]

As a reasonably competitive Merc and Cygnar player, I will say that Cygnar + a couple of merc solo's is generally the way I play, but that it is possible to be a purist. I will say that the shear number of models and combinations of stuff Cygnar has access to is staggering.

I will also say that Cygnar tends to be full of specialist troops, that if used properly can do amazingly well, but if they are forced to try and be something they aren't they start to fall apart a bit. Mercs tend to have more generalist and support pieces.

At the end of the day, play the units you love to death (honestly run them all the time, win some, loose some, try to figure out what caused you to loose some, change your play style a bit, repeat). I routinely do well with trenchers because of this fact. Many of the Cygnar troops have so many options available to them knowing what to pull out in which situation is more important than what you bring.

I will issue a word of warning against mercs... they seem to be like crack... try one, you get more... next thing you know they are taking over your office and demanding more Jacks (true story... just finished putting together 2 rovers :P).

[gelfy]

being able to use so many merc units with out playing there restrictive casters was the main draw for me to the swans. man i have had a **** load of game s with the ugly ducklings and im still finding new cool ideas and combos that actually work in certain meta.


dont restrict yourselves. seriously the game is so much more addictive when you get way to many choices to try.

[Garath]

And regarding the idea of manipulating stats to make sales as people have mentioned, I think that is a weak argument. Mercenaries is practically a faction in its own right and people are comfortable playing them separately. And comparing Cylena to Stormblades is like comparing apples to oranges; they have entirely different roles. Also, these units were updated in mk ii to take some of that creep into account. I have both and I play with both depending on what I need them to do.

By people you mean me,and that argument is anything but weak. Take a look at the way the game is developing- bigger and stronger models, more and more and more options. Everything synergises - that's the concept they are trying to sell- and it works!
what happened was someone came to the idea, "Now we have all those people that have a main faction in WM and have some of the units from MK1,now let's issue them some UA/soolos to get the people to buy the unit because they need the stuff the UA /solo brings to the table.
Example: Duke and sword knights. I didn't own sword knights,but the solo looks cool and makes them work fine. I didn't fall for it tho- I converted mine since I hate the original models

Example 2: Any merc unit and Murdoch....Nyss,Boomhowler are ok units ,but wait a second here- you put this guy in and suddely the have Dig in and assault. DEF 19 Nyss immune to blast damage ?-check!
And people will buy them, they CAN replace our in faction units we have already bought,painted and played with- and they are superior in many ways.
You CAN compare any unit with any other unit- why not? Their specific "roles" are only things you would like to do with them in the field.

Every single model you field must have a way to survive long enough to do the task you give it. If it can't - something is very wrong- deployment in most cases , movement in all other cases.

So let's look at that Stormblades vs Nyss comparison again.
Storm blades advantages over Nyss:
-higher damage output
-better armour
-immune to lightning
-assault order

Nyss advantages over Stormblades
-higher movement
-better defense
-pathfinder
-hunter
-weaponmaster
-CRA
-longer threat range

Now the way the game works if you have a higher DEF -the opposition needs to pull of shenenigas to counter it- so it's more useful on infantry overall then high ARM ,unless the ARM is insane high (over 21) . Pathfinder and hunter are self buffing skills- one let's you go into forrests without worry and the second one lets you ignore it for LOS...so they can't shoot back.

Assault order on Blades is very useful for wrecking jacks ,but they need to roll a 6 to hit a khador jack ....and it has too high arm to worry about it (average is 1 dmg). Heavy infantry(multi wound) would be the perfect target for those shots, and between assault and charge attack this is the one area where Stormblades perform better then Nyss,hands down(unless you're playing Siege- then there's no difference - both units kill heavy infantry on averages.

Nyss have CRA and weaponmaster so when going against units/light jack they have several options:
Single shots (good against cannon fodder troops) , CRA against hard to hit targets or hard to damage targets , or charge ...
SB lack those options and are ussually too slow to have first strike on anything for that matter. With their poor rat they rarely hit and their Mat is only a point higher then Nyss' .

Immune to lightning is useful in 4 major ways:
1. You're bringing a thunderhead and don't want our *** fried
2. You need something to bounce electro leaps off
3. You need something to bounce chain lightning off
4. Yo're bringing Stormguard and the 2 units support each other
So now that I wrote a book about it,yes you CAN compare those units . And the outcome is simple:

Unless you need to deal with heavy infantry or jacks, Nyss are a better unit then Stormblades and everything stormblades do Nyss can do better. Nyss do not fare well in a themed "lightning list"

[Defenstrator]

Example: Unit of Stormguard is good if followed by Thunderhead- he can pulse and kill the enemy once Stormguard are engaged - they will be safe from pulse for they are immune to lightning.
If not for that immunity -that combo would be a bad ,bad idea but the unit would cost less points or have better stats for the points paid. you bet your sweet behind no one would call them overcosted if they had MAT 8 and SPD 6 and P+S 13 weaponmasters- and loose the shooting attack on the Sarge.

Actually that sort of points out the downside of Cygnar, you're over paying for situational abilities. I much prefered the MKI Thunderhead which just had a 6" arc to the front. That way I could run it with things like Swordknights or Steelheads, and I didn't spend my time electrocuting my own models. I just got the ones in front out of the way and didn't have to worry about frying the ones behind it.

As is whenever I run the Thunderhead + Stormguard module it means non-purist for sure. The Stormguard need Tough and Fearless from Rhupert Carvolo in order to properly screen.

I must admit that I'm one of the people happy to not cut Cygnar's infantry any slack. This isn't to say we don't have performers, but compared to a lot of mercs (and other factions) a bunch of our stuff seems lack luster.

I think this comes from being a long time Merc player. I started with Cygnar in Escalation, but when NQ#1 was released with Ashlynn I switched over to Mercs. So I've always had an ample supply of alternate models to replace anything that feels like it's underperforming.

With Cygnar's lack of faction bias this makes it pretty easy to start comparing and contrasting, often with unfavorable results to Cygnar. I've got Harlan Versh, you think I'll take a GMCA? Long Gunners instead of Nyss? Trenchers instead of Boomhowler? Give up Rhupert Carvolo, the factions best UA, or Reinholdt, who's so good with both the Caines, Siege, and Sloan that who gets him will determine what other lists are run in tournaments? Even generic units like Steelhead Halberdiers are arguably a better choice than Swordknights with half our warcasters. And if you think Constance Blaize is a Cygnar caster you've never seen her in action supported by Steelheads and Forgeguard.

Now having said all that I still play faction pure now and then. I like to fluff it up and represent as much as the next guy. But unless playing a very specific list mercs are going to creep in there, as support solos at the very least.

[iksander]

By people you mean me,and that argument is anything but weak. Take a look at the way the game is developing- bigger and stronger models, more and more and more options. Everything synergises - that's the concept they are trying to sell- and it works!
what happened was someone came to the idea, "Now we have all those people that have a main faction in WM and have some of the units from MK1,now let's issue them some UA/soolos to get the people to buy the unit because they need the stuff the UA /solo brings to the table.
Example: Duke and sword knights. I didn't own sword knights,but the solo looks cool and makes them work fine. I didn't fall for it tho- I converted mine since I hate the original models

Example 2: Any merc unit and Murdoch....Nyss,Boomhowler are ok units ,but wait a second here- you put this guy in and suddely the have Dig in and assault. DEF 19 Nyss immune to blast damage ?-check!
And people will buy them, they CAN replace our in faction units we have already bought,painted and played with- and they are superior in many ways.
You CAN compare any unit with any other unit- why not? Their specific "roles" are only things you would like to do with them in the field.

Every single model you field must have a way to survive long enough to do the task you give it. If it can't - something is very wrong- deployment in most cases , movement in all other cases.

But your wrong.

The forums were all up on the Nyss and Boomhowlers jocks since the field test rules. They aren't just ok, they fill niches in Cygnar that aren't available by common Cygnaran troops. Murdoch just made them even more attractive, by addressing some of the problems they have; Ie. Blast damage for Nyss, LOS blocking for Boomhowlers. The majority of Cygnar buffs could give zero craps about your faction. Trust me, Cygnar players were probably gravitating towards those models before Murdoch.

And the Runewoods ability for Swordknights doesn't make them auto includes with him. Reform is solid, but its not like retarded strong like the abilities granted by Tartarus or the Errant Seneschal where you feel stupid for not taking their respective units.

I don't see a grand conspiracy. All books have their chaff and wheat. Except for Legends, that was the book PPS went full retard on power creep cause they were jumping ship to MK2.