I can't make Harkevich work

[StefDa]

Ok, so I have to get this off my chest. I love Harkevich's fluff and model, I really do. And him being a 'jack oriented 'caster, love it. However, I've played some games with him now, and I really can't find anything I like about him. I just can't make him work. He can't buff accuracy on neither 'jacks nor infantry (Fortune hardly matters in my opinion and experience). He cannot buff damage output.

He can cast Broadsides which is almost like a sort of damage output buff, but not really - an extra shot is good, but this dictates you should have at least two warjacks with ranged weapons (Destroyer, Demolisher, Black Ivan, Behemoth, hell even Spriggan or Torch) which will be at least 18 points (minus his 5 Warjack points). Having three 'jacks with ranged weapons makes this spell at lot better. The problem is, though, aside from Black Ivan (which is an autoinclude with Harkevich if there ever was one) you're looking at extra shots that cannot be boosted and only have RAT 4. The stuff they can hit (really heavy, slow targets) will hardly feel it, and deviation is in my six years of experience nothing to count too heavily on (especially with bombards - AOE 3 and POW 7 is not as awesome as it sounds).

He has Escort, though, which is really awesome, no doubt about that. There's nothing bad to say about it, I love it. His feat is good as well. The only gripe I have is that in order to make use of the ranged attack the 'jacks get to make, they will often need to boost either the attack or the damage roll, leaving them with (let's be generous) two focus points.

Of course you don't need to perform this pseudo Assault, you could just accept the +3 ARM bonus and run into their face or bait them, both of which are fine tactics, depending on the actual situation of course.

Now, from my experience, Harkevich decidedly sucks. That's it, I said it. He sucks. He doesn't make 'jacks better at hitting or hurting, but he makes them more survivable and more maneuvrable (Pathfinder and +2" movement yes please!). He couldn't care less about infantry.

I think the general concensus here is that a list with multiple Warjacks is a bad idea, especially at 35 pts which is what I mostly play. That suggests using self-sufficient infantry like Iron Fang Pikemen or Great Bears, the Winter Guard Death Star, Kayazy Assassins with Underboss, Kayazy Eliminators and so on.

Now, as I said, my personal experiences and long nights of pondering the use of the Iron Wolf has all resulted in the same conclusion: He sucks and is a waste of my time. I get maybe three games in a month so I want to make sure I'll actually enjoy them and use models I like playing with, which currently isn't Harkevich.

As mentioned that's my personal experience, but being the logical, positive, open-minded, all round jolly good fella I am, logic dictates that there is something I'm not getting: Harkevich tactics, army composition, order of activation, some sly moves I haven't put two and two together and figured out yet. He cannot be as bad as I have only known him to be because he is a popular topic in the Khador forum and the Lists sub-forum, so I totally admit he isn't the problem, I am.

I was hoping I could get some help because I really want to work with him and enjoy playing with him. He has an awesome model, wonderful fluff and a strong, characteristically Khadoran feel to him that I just love.

I don't own the WGDS and don't plan on it, and I have no Eliminators yet but plan to get two units at some point during the summer. I have more or less everything else, barring WGDS, Markov, Rifle Corps, Bombardiers, Black Dragons and Kossites.

What can I do? What do you do when you have a good game with the Iron Wolf? I'm very interested in hearing anything you have to say, be it theorymachine, actual game experience, tips on what to do once the models have been placed on the board, which things work with him, you name it. I refuse to believe that he's bad, I know there's something I'm missing.

Generally I'm a good Khador player, I've played them since 2006 and I have won with every 'caster we have. I'm not super competitive, my meta is very varied despite having few players. My most frequent opponnent would be one Skorne player and two Cryx players, one of which also has Cygnar.

I really appreciate anything and everything you can give me.

[IronComrade]

Harkevich is pretty cool @ 50 where you can easily have the power trio of Behemoth, Black Ivan, and a Spriggan. I think after that, the includes are a Koldun Lord, Sylys, Greylords, mechanics, and then some infantry that can both block the jacks and benefit from Fortune.

I think with Hark's fluff, he should have an elite cadre with Mechanics that raises their skill check to 8-9 instead of seven. That would be pretty sweet.

[Kurb]

He is like 1 focus from being a really great caster.

[IronComrade]

He is like 1 focus from being a really great caster.

Agreeeeeed

[John of Arc]

I'm curious too. He looks like he doesn't actually do anything besides move jacks forward with a crappy version of pStryker's feat.

[StefDa]

I'm curious too. He looks like he doesn't actually do anything besides move jacks forward with a crappy version of pStryker's feat.

Phew, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

To be fair, Escort+feat could be enough in and of itself, he could be a walking repetoir of focus to be distributed to his Warjacks for all I care. The problem is he only has six focus. If he had eight the story would have been different, and his game could essentially be "first turn cast Escort, upkeep for free with Sylys for the rest of the game. Allocate seven focus each turn, have Warjacks kick arse". That'd be fine, I'd love to play that. It wouldn't be super great, but it'd be half decent.

[Michael]

I've been having hit-or-miss games with Harkevich as well. The more I think about it, the more I think that Decimators and Demolishers are the warjacks for him. Unfortunately, I don't own either one...yet.

Other than that: Fortune does a great job on Ternions, IFP, Demo Corps, Gun Carriages, and really anything that always seems to have that turn of "Well, great...that would have been awesome, if I could have only rolled that 6 or 7 I needed to hit. Now I die."

Koldun Lords and Ternions do a great job of helping out with focus issues and Broadsides shots. (The AK's can help out with Broadsides against living models too.)

I have also noticed that Harkevich gets nickel-and-dimed to death over three or four turns rather than dying to one big sucker punch, like most other casters. I don't know why this has been the case for me, but I'm sure there's something to this...

Hope this helps!

[Col_Festus]

I've been working a lot on getting him to work. I've been playing him exclusively at 35 points in steam roller formats lately with timed turns. These are the few things I've noticed...

His real strength is in scenario combined with escort and his feat. He is not a ranged jack caster. Broadside is really a trap. There I said it! :P His tier is actually very good, I usually take it to level 2 to get the bonus to first turn and to begin the game with upkeep spells. He can run all his jacks, camp his focus the first turn and REALLY get stuck in. I run him with 3 jacks at 35, most of them are melee jacks + black ivan. I also take the WGDS with him. Fortune + their sprays + joe clean off objectives and mow down enemy infantry like none other. Here is what I've been running..

Harkevich
Spriggan
Juggernaut
Black Ivan

Full Winter Guard Infantry
- Winter Guard Officer + Standard
- 3x Winter Guard Rocketeers
Kovnik Joe

I also have noticed I utilize power attacks with him a lot. Especially slams. With his feat and slamming for free you can knock back 2 hard enemy targets and beat one into a pulp. I usually load up the spriggan and send him in to wreck what needs wrecking. So I give him 3, upkeep fortune, and escort, the other 2 jacks usually slam or charge for free for the extra movement.

Then you sit there with Arm 23/24 jacks and Hark around arm 21 - 22. It works very well. At that point you can also have Black Ivan fairly far forward on the field. Between bulldoze you can push models away that engage him to keep his bombard firing. Pinging the enemy caster and keeping them on their toes. That is when I look to broadside to see if I can double tap the caster for the win. That's really the ONLY time I will use it. He ironically works best as a melee attrition caster. This list has a surprising number of tools. It can remove stealth, hit high defense infantry, use arcing fire to knock out important targets or soften up the enemy, has pathfinder, and has speed, AND an arm buff. Personally after coming to the realization of these things Hark is getting a lot more respect from my opponents, and from myself.

[Trollicious]

pStryker's feat in Khador would be insane. Harkevich's feat is pretty amazing. I've only run him with a pretty hefty complement of jacks, along with some mechanics and greylords (who love fortune, btw). With escort up, you can run your jacks into position to charge on the following turn and merely pop your feat defensively. You will usually force your opponent to decide between losing a main chunk of his force, or losing by scenario.

If you bring wyshnaylr, Hark can upkeep escort for free, allowing him to pop feat and camp at arm27. As long as he's not in a terrible position, there wont be much your opponent can do about that.

[correlation2]

I've run him with up to 5 Destroyers before. Man, that was awesome!


The trick is really to grab Black Ivan off the start, then a Juggernaut and maybe another Destroyer. Broadsides is basically just there for when you want to toss extra AOEs at Stealth targets and to give Black Ivan another free shot on a solo or whatever. Those automatic boosted attacks are good at hunting down basically anything.

Now I think he might be able to function just as well with Black Ivan and a pair of Demolishers, but those guys aren't out yet so I haven't tried them.

I usually keep a Wardog and Juggernaut back to babysit Harkevich while my other jacks do the heavy lifting. I find Fortune is pretty good on the WGRC, but then again I don't own Kovnik Joe so that's probably redundant if you bring him. That being said, of course he functions well with Great Bears and the like ( everything does ).


The most obvious problem is that he's -always- out of focus. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've ended a turn with focus left over on him. I think the key to winning with him is to really use the mobility of our warjacks. It's quite a strength in and of itself because the enemy doesn't expect it and can't really counter it. To that end, you need to use terrain strategically. I think ( but haven't tested ) that a Gun Carriage or two might be his best bet to form an area of rough terrain the enemy can't cross but we can.



That being said I consider him impossible to play ( comfortably ) under 50 pts. 35 is just waaay too tight and at 15 he's really underpowered.

[PG_Draxos]

I think Col_Festus hit the nail on the head. I have been working Harkivech pretty hard lately and he has covered everything I got. The only thing I have to add is that if you play him out of tier you need IFP

[Col_Festus]

I think Col_Festus hit the nail on the head. I have been working Harkivech pretty hard lately and he has covered everything I got. The only thing I have to add is that if you play him out of tier you need IFP

I agree. When/if I decide to break the tier I'll take BD IFP. Being able to KD or knock out enemy jacks movement systems makes his jacks much more focus efficient. The mini feat on harks feat turn also synergizes very well.

As a side note with jump start its really hard to keep his jacks out of scenario zones.

[HellecticMojo]

I'm gonna speak from an opponent's point of view. harkevich only seems to perform poorly if he tries engage the enemy head on. He's much better performing surgical strikes while a tarpit model holds the line. Escort really is key and using power attacks to knock down a single piece and pouring everything into it seems to yield most amount of results.

Every loss I've seen him have is when the player decided to out grind me on the front lines where an assasination list can break through a gap or out grind him and kill him.
All of his victories i've observed are from him hanging back until lines are about to touch, blow one corner of the enemy and rush everything into the opening.

[Krazy_Ivan]

I just bought Hark and Ivan, but haven't played them yet. Waiting till i get my behemoth because i think that's a jack he really shines with. I know everyone says broadsides is a trap spell, and certainly later on in a game i can see this. However, being able to lob 5 bombards into the enemy's ranks on turn 1 / turn 2 (with the ivan / behemoth combo) seems pretty brutal to me. Especially if they brought infantry to win the day. I dunno, i don't think i'd bring hark to a tournament... but for friendly games and fun turns, he appeals to me. Then again, Im not big on tournaments anyway.

[Kuarnix]

Yeah, I really like IFP with him. The other thing is that Broadsides is a "use minimally" spell. Sometimes you want it but most of the time it's not going to net you anything. But remember when you cast it that Harkevich gets to shoot too. I usually bring Black Ivan and a melee beater (typically the spriggan, it's so good at spd 6).

[Havock]

He is not a 'jack caster. He is -the- combined arms caster. He can run several 'jacks (and that can be pretty good at lower points), but he wants a nice unit of infantry to screen him and his battlegroup, who are otherwise vulnerable to getting stuck in melee. That unit of infantry can be anything, though in a multi-list format the WGI are probably elsewhere.
Taking IFP gives them access to fortune, which makes them a good part better on offense. Of course, Kayazy are a solid choice too, or even doom reavers. The unit just needs to be self sufficient because he can't help their defense in any way.

[Darguth]

I've been working a lot on getting him to work. I've been playing him exclusively at 35 points in steam roller formats lately with timed turns. These are the few things I've noticed...

His real strength is in scenario combined with escort and his feat. He is not a ranged jack caster. Broadside is really a trap. There I said it! :P His tier is actually very good, I usually take it to level 2 to get the bonus to first turn and to begin the game with upkeep spells. He can run all his jacks, camp his focus the first turn and REALLY get stuck in. I run him with 3 jacks at 35, most of them are melee jacks + black ivan. I also take the WGDS with him. Fortune + their sprays + joe clean off objectives and mow down enemy infantry like none other. Here is what I've been running..

Harkevich
Spriggan
Juggernaut
Black Ivan

Full Winter Guard Infantry
- Winter Guard Officer + Standard
- 3x Winter Guard Rocketeers
Kovnik Joe

I also have noticed I utilize power attacks with him a lot. Especially slams. With his feat and slamming for free you can knock back 2 hard enemy targets and beat one into a pulp. I usually load up the spriggan and send him in to wreck what needs wrecking. So I give him 3, upkeep fortune, and escort, the other 2 jacks usually slam or charge for free for the extra movement.

Then you sit there with Arm 23/24 jacks and Hark around arm 21 - 22. It works very well. At that point you can also have Black Ivan fairly far forward on the field. Between bulldoze you can push models away that engage him to keep his bombard firing. Pinging the enemy caster and keeping them on their toes. That is when I look to broadside to see if I can double tap the caster for the win. That's really the ONLY time I will use it. He ironically works best as a melee attrition caster. This list has a surprising number of tools. It can remove stealth, hit high defense infantry, use arcing fire to knock out important targets or soften up the enemy, has pathfinder, and has speed, AND an arm buff. Personally after coming to the realization of these things Hark is getting a lot more respect from my opponents, and from myself.

I like the cut of this man's jib. I'd agree that I do think Broadsides is a trap. It is not something you build the list around. It has it's uses, situationally, but it is not why one plays Harkevich. Even with 3 ranged jacks without being able to boost outside activation the attacks are just too inaccurate to hit soft targets and too pillow-fisted to threaten hard targets. Like I said, it has it's uses, but it's not the core of the list.

[Havock]

Broadsides is not a trap, just situational.

Cryx hordes overcrowding the table? Aim for the centre, see what hapens.

Although I'd love to see someone have a go with Harkevich and a couple of demolishers in scenario play. Win or lose, record your opponent's face for hilarity and justice.

[OMM_Lukav]

Has anyone tried his Tier list with ManOWars and present the force as a heavy infantry list in scenario play?

[PG_Draxos]

The problem I have with MoW in his theme list is that they can't keep up with your jacks no matter what.

[StefDa]

Has anyone tried his Tier list with ManOWars and present the force as a heavy infantry list in scenario play?

Why would you do this? I don't see any reason. He doesn't support them at all, and they're too slow and rather squishy to be the main part of any army, unless you can mitigate this of course (pVlad and Windwall, pIrusk and everything, pButcher and IF, eIrusk with his rules and so on).

[IronComrade]

Why would you do this? I don't see any reason. He doesn't support them at all, and they're too slow and rather squishy to be the main part of any army, unless you can mitigate this of course (pVlad and Windwall, pIrusk and everything, pButcher and IF, eIrusk with his rules and so on).

Actually demo corp are nice as a second wave unit. With mat 7 they are a nice target for fortune.

[RevolverAdamska]

I won a 50 point center scenario yesterday whit Iron wolf :
Black Ivan
Big B
Spriggan
Sylas
x2 full IFP +ua

This match confirm me that Iron wolf is a good caster whit melee-like jack , next time gonna take x2 Spriggan and Beast or 3 spriggan period.
Fortune helped a bit BigB shoots but tbh it work better on melee stuff then shooting, same for the feat free charge and + 3 armor.

[Havock]

I really want to make an 'all pikes/lances'-force when the C-chassis plastics come out.

HorseVlad
Spriggan(s)
Uhlans
Pikemen
Markov
Drakhun (are you going to tell him he can't join thát party?)

[OldOneEye]

Gonna agree with the other points made so far. One or two more focus would make him CRAZY good, but it's not an option. Demo Corps work as a second wave for his up-front 'jacks.

I've been using him quite a bit in the last couple of weeks. My playstyle with him has always been to basically ignore shooting (outside of Ivan) and using the feat for an early aggressive push. With Escort, you can have his warjacks in threat range on Harkevich's second turn-- that's a good time to pop the feat. Now your opponent either has to dislodge multiple ARM 23+ warjacks, back off or concede the charge to the Harkevich player. Any way you look at it, that's a win for the Harkevich player.

The tough part is that his focus load forces some tough decisions on you. When I lose with Harkevich, it's because I try and do too much at one time. When I win, it's usually because I focus on loading up one 'jack a turn and making the most of that one model's activation. The simple fact is that you have to pick your battles; Harkevich can't drive a whole army to do it all in a given turn.

Also, FWIW the all-Bulldoze Harkevich battlegroup is tons of fun. I can't wait for the Demolisher kit so I can run him with Ivan, two Spriggans, and a Devastator/ Demolisher each.

[sterling319]

I'll give you my answer to his issues. And really, it's an answer to an issue Khador has with its 'jacks in general, they're kinda stupid. MAT 6 just isn't very reliable. So most 'jack casters have some way of giving a universal buff to our big hunks of beatstick. My answer was to use 'jacks that put out plenty of damage for very little focus. The Marauder is a good one for this. One focus to boost attack, free charge on feat turn, knock 'em into something, P+S 20 + 4d6. And on feat turn, ARM 23. But my favorite with him has got to be my Devastator. Auto-hit with Bulldoze has won me games before. And on feat turn, if you attack, he goes down to normal Khador armor instead of easy to kill. That gets around your issues to-hit with a boostable P+S 18 auto-hit if he's b2b. And if you don't attack on feat turn, feel free to run him right up into the teeth of absolutely everything your opponent has, then laugh at his attempts to kill ARM 28. Even with Armor Piercing, his ARM drops to 16. That's something around dice -7 for most AP attacks. Then, if he's moved models into melee, bulldoze helps him get what you want into that Rain of Death attack.

[sterling319]

Oh, and I can't frickin' wait for our Demolisher. Gonna run two with Harkevich. ARM 25 with a ranged attack every turn? With no loss of armor? Yes, please!

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I run him in tier with demo corps and have found them to be good so far. Fortune really helps them, and they make a good clean up crew/bodyguard for Harkevich (along with Black Ivan of course). I run 4 jacks at 50pts: Black Ivan, 2xspriggan and a devastator (really want the demolisher to come out). 4 sources of bulldoze is so much fun!

Cheers,
Dave

[PG_Draxos]

I like what Road to War suggested. Give him a spriggan and a bunch of juggernauts and force a piece trade under his feat. Chances are you won't lose the piece.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Went 1 from 2 with him this weekend, winning against Cygnar and loosing to Legion. First game against Warmachine with him, and I found him a lot better. It's far easier to wear down jacks compared to beasts, due to being able to take out systems and stop them repairing more easily, and I seem to play him this way, so it worked better. Against Legion, it could have gone my way, but dice are fickle at times, and I took longer than I should have taking down a scythean, which my opponent capitalised on. pThags was on 6 boxes at the end though! Had a turn where both field guns missed him (needing 7's and both rolling 6's) which could have made things closer. Very pleased with him overall, glad he's coming to Masters with me

Oh, and he is one tough nut! DEF17 ARM20+ is nothing to sneeze at! Was endlessly being attacked by Cygnar jacks (who had lost their cortexes at least) and infantry, but kept going. Legion had to use two legionares to knock the dog down before a carnivean and a ravagore had to go in to kill him. Even then it was the last attack by the ravagore that got him!

Cheers,
Dave