What Does a Tournament Winning Circle army have in it?

[nerdkingdan]

I just started this game, and I purchased a ton of Khador stuff and found that some of my purchases were bad, because I didn't buy them with the collective army in mind. I'm sure this is an issue with many people starting out, for my second army I wanted to research the tournament winning armies to make fewer more effective purchases.

I have found lots of tournament winning armys for the other factions I'm considering, but I would like to see what armies people are using to win with in circle, to make a decision between, circle and legion, having eliminated all the other armies I was thinking about after reviewing their tournament army. Its not that I want to stack my army with the most effective things, its just after spending so much on khador, I need to buy a solid and effective second army with no options that can be competitive, without having to spend money on it every week.

I got a solid plan for 50 point army of Legion, that is relatively nice to the pocket book, but am struggling to find examples of circle to put together a similar plan to effectively make my choice based on how cool the army looks that does well.

Am I not finding examples of tournaments won by circle cause I'm looking in the wrong place, or they simply don''t win that much?

[Blaque]

Goraxes, Shifting Stones, and a melee Warpwolf of some variety I think ar ein a lot of lists out there. I think those are the things shared between most of my lists at least. Beyond that, things get fairly caster-specific.

And stuff.

[thewisp]

Wold Stalkers, tharn blooder trackers, warpwolf stalker, black clads. Like Blaque said "Shifting Stones" those are very important. What warlock are you looking at?

[Warcaster Feiss]

The only units in 2 out of the 3 lists I'll be taking to the Masters is; Double Shifting Stones, Druids + UA, 2x Woldstalkers, Gorax, Warpwolf Stalker, Pureblood Warpwolf. Those choices will work with many of Circle's Warlocks IMO.

I know the Pureblood is much lamented but I've found a soft spot for him particularly when coming up against Arcane Shielded / Iron Fleshed stuff.

[nverbe]

a skilled player sitting at the table.

but otherwise pretty much what has been already said

[Warcaster Feiss]

++EDIT++

Stupid internets... silly uber delayed double post!

[Lighten]

We generally win our fair share of tourneys. That said, the lists vary pretty wildly depending on caster. eKrueger won a UK masters a ways back with lots of woldwardens and druids; Skillt took L&L masters last year with a Kromac list with warpwolves/satyr and woldstalkers; Walter won a tourney and placed in others at Adepticon a few weeks ago with an eBaldur tier (read: Megalith/guardian/woldwatcher construct brick). I don't keep track of the tourneys well enough to list off all the wins and army formats, but I think you're going to have to at least pick a caster or casters before you get much useful advice.

Well, other than the obligatory double stones + UA, warpwolf stalker, have druids + UA available, at least.

[BigHoot]

Either Baldur, Kromac, pKrueger, or eKaya.

[Mattho2k3]

Typically 2 units of Shifting Stones (1 with UA), a Gorax, and a melee warpwolf (usually a Stalker). That seems to be thecore build for most of our Warlocks.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

Play skill is going to be more important than what you put in the list. Shifting Stones are quite good at setting up stuff your opponent doesn't see coming, and a lot of other things. Gorax is a great fury battery and helps us crack armor so it gets included a lot. After that, see what works for you. I don't think you HAVE to play Shifting Stones to see success, nor does every list need a Gorax to get a win, but those are things people have had success with.

[BigHoot]

Either Baldur, Kromac, pKrueger, or eKaya.

[ringsnake]

Wrong question, the question should be:

"What does a winning army have behind it?"

The only way to win at tourneys is to pick an army, stick with it through thick and thin, and play the game a lot. Not only that, but play at lots of tourneys, and especially play against people who are better at it than you. Know the rules inside and out, and know the rules for all the models in the game, and all their combos and tricks. If someone throws warcaster/lock X down across the table from you, and you have no idea what they can do, you've halfway lost already. This is, in fact, one of Circle's greatest advantages in metas where you don't see a lot of Circle played.

Oh, and luck helps more than most would admit. Many final round tourney wins come down to a single roll of the dice.

All of that said, there is some junk in our faction, and there are some very good models as well.

THE BAD STUFF
Sentry Stone: Only good as a price of admission for Baldur's theme. If you get the rules wrong it's amazing, but if you get all rules right, it sucks.
Skinwalkers: Too many points for too little return. Only good as price of admission to eKaya's theme. Can't hit, and can't damage.
Morvahna the Autumnblade: Too many bad matchups. There are entire factions that laugh at how lame she is.
Reeve Hunter: The theory is better than what happens in practice. Spend the extra point for a whitemane.
Reeves of Orboros: Just a big pile of not worth that many points. Compare them to Menoth's Exemplar Errants.
Most minions: Minions provide little to nothing that Circle would ever want or need. Gatorman Shaman's going to be an exception, and the Gatorman Posse is our best heavy infantry option.

THE GOOD STUFF
All the rest of our warlocks are solid to excellent, but all of them have a steep learning curve. Grayle, for example, is utterly lame the first dozen or so times you use him, and then once you get the hang of him he's a killing machine. eKrueger is the lord of winning by scenario.
Gallows Grove: Game changer, shuts down tough and healing.
Shifting Stones: Always take them. ALWAYS. Even if you only use them for healing and fury management on your beasts they win games.
Druids of Orboros + UA: Probably the best support unit in the game.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I wan't going to reply in this thread, I don't think this is a good way to collect.
I wanted to disagree with this though:

THE BAD STUFF
Sentry Stone: Only good as a price of admission for Baldur's theme. If you get the rules wrong it's amazing, but if you get all rules right, it sucks.
Skinwalkers: Too many points for too little return. Only good as price of admission to eKaya's theme. Can't hit, and can't damage.
Morvahna the Autumnblade: Too many bad matchups. There are entire factions that laugh at how lame she is.
Reeve Hunter: The theory is better than what happens in practice. Spend the extra point for a whitemane.
Reeves of Orboros: Just a big pile of not worth that many points. Compare them to Menoth's Exemplar Errants.
Most minions: Minions provide little to nothing that Circle would ever want or need. Gatorman Shaman's going to be an exception, and the Gatorman Posse is our best heavy infantry option.

Sentry stones are legit. Everyone playing them in pBaldur Theme has said they are surprised by how good they are.
Skinwalkers have amazing defensive stats and with a+2 ARM buff they really have potential. Recently I have even manages to kill something with them!
Morvahna is legit. Her bad matches are way overblown, she really only fears 2 things: Purification (Total 4 casters) and RFP (More but limited in any given list).

Reeves I cannot make any positive comment about redeeming features at this time but a few minions are also usable (Gobbers, slaughterhousers, totem hunter, gatormen, bonegrinders.... etc.)

[Blaque]

I know the Pureblood is much lamented but I've found a soft spot for him particularly when coming up against Arcane Shielded / Iron Fleshed stuff.

Mind I like Purebloods, but I reach for a Stalker/Feral/Ghetorix as my first beast in a list most of the time. After that, I then consider a Pureblood, but it is terrible as your primary workhorse heavy.

And stuff.

[Warcaster Feiss]

Re-reading my post, it sounds like I'm using a Pureblood to beat up on Arcane Shielded / Iron Fleshed stuff, I really don't! Completely agree that they're less than stellar as a beatstick heavy!

The Pureblood went in each of the lists after primary heavies, one list has Ghetorix/Stalker/Pureblood (Kromac), the other has Stalker/Pureblood/Warden (Krueger2).

[rpavers]

Good dice rolling and a player that knows the rules with decent tactics.

And heck reeve hunter is 2 pts for a pretty solid sniper. Don't have to do the charging quick work business.

[Warcaster Feiss]

Good dice rolling and a player that knows the rules with decent tactics.

And heck reeve hunter is 2 pts for a pretty solid sniper. Don't have to do the charging quick work business.

If all one wants is a sniper, I'd sooner take Alten Ashley, better range and better RAT.
Plus he has a cigar.

[rpavers]

If all one wants is a sniper, I'd sooner take Alten Ashley, better range and better RAT.
Plus he has a cigar.

I was thinking more or less for the hunter ability and snap fire. Need to mod a cigar for the reeve now.

[nerdkingdan]

Original Poster here...

If the armys for Circle change heavily by caster, then this is not the army for me at this time, I can't afford it. Khador i know what units I can buy that are good for lots of casters. And I see what in legion I can get that are good for most casters. I can't seem to figure out a pattern like that for circle, and thats why I asked about tournament armies so i could figure it out. There are lots of variation in tournament winning armys however for Legion and Khador I found enough tournament winning lists to make a judgment call on what to start with. For circle I found no lists claiming to win tournaments to use to research this.

Just to be clear are you saying I can't buy a sold core list for circle, and get a lot of mileage out of a few unit choices like I'm seeing I can do with Khador and Legion?

[rpavers]

I treat circle as a bunch of mini faction. I.e I primarily play constructs, so I focus on casters that are decent with constructs. All the armies are pretty much warlock dependant. We lack like a khador behemoth/deathstar, so you may be sol with circle.

[Lighten]

@OP: Actually, you can probably do a pretty good job of making a core army. You'll run into a few casters that want something you don't have, of course.Start with what Mattho2k3 said above - Gorax, dual shifting stones + UA, Warpwolf (plastic kit), they're going to make the vast majority of lists. Get a second Warpwolf kit (and ideally, the Ghetorix blister), and then either dual woldstalkers or bloodtrackers + UA. Add blackclad or druid wilder, and you've got a good 35pt list for most casters. Druids + UA and Megalith to get up past 50.The issue with asking about tournament lists is that they're often highly specialized and/or optimized for what the player's trying to do. pBaldur can happily use the models above, and do it well, but a lot of people would rather take him to a tournament in his tier, which requires a lot of construct warbeasts, sentry stones, and the like. eBaldur tier is similar, and eKaya's tier is often taken and has skinwalkers, which you'll rarely use elsewhere. A couple of casters (Baldur, Mohsar, eKrueger, Cassius) might like a Woldwarden for forests and/or extra spell spam. Kromac might not take Druids and he and eKaya may want another beast...See what the other Circle players say about the list above as a good core, I guess. I can't think of any caster who couldn't bring those models to a tournament at 50 points and be solid, even if they do have a more popular build.

[Lighten]

Okay, I'm really sorry for the wall of text, but for some reason it's insisting on ignoring any spacing or new lines I put into the post. Never had that happen before.

[nerdkingdan]

Wall of text aside. That's the kind of info I was trying to get out of looking at tournament lists, I like to research that on my own when possible.

Have to look at the models you mention to see what I think.

[mattjh]

Original Poster here...

If the armys for Circle change heavily by caster, then this is not the army for me at this time, I can't afford it. Khador i know what units I can buy that are good for lots of casters. And I see what in legion I can get that are good for most casters. I can't seem to figure out a pattern like that for circle, and thats why I asked about tournament armies so i could figure it out. There are lots of variation in tournament winning armys however for Legion and Khador I found enough tournament winning lists to make a judgment call on what to start with. For circle I found no lists claiming to win tournaments to use to research this.

Just to be clear are you saying I can't buy a sold core list for circle, and get a lot of mileage out of a few unit choices like I'm seeing I can do with Khador and Legion?

You can make an army that will work alright with most of the casters and can just be swapped out. However, circle gets pretty specific in what they want to be completely optimized. The other issue, of course, becomes the character restrictions. We can't even suggest, "get bloodtrackers + ua, you can use them in all your lists" anymore because of nuala being a chracter.

However, you wouldn't go wrong getting what is suggested. Stalkers, Gorax, shifting stones +ua, shifting stones, druids + ua.

Some casters can overlap more easily than others also.

[nerdkingdan]

So I looked over the models, some of my favorites are not in this, however were hitting on some of the ones I liked, enough to keep me considering Circle. I am also not looking to go to a tournament, rather just be able to have good games.

Of the competitive casters pKrueger, or eKaya.

Do they have unique to them over lap? I think I'll probably put together a buying list for circle and compare it to my legion list and probably go with the cheaper one.

Whats the list that would be best for those two?

4 Gorax
9 warp wolf
3 shifting stone+UA
11 Ghetorix
10 Bloodtrackers+UA
5 Woldstalkers
2 Blackclad
2 Druid Wilder
9 druids+UA
11 Megalith

This what I should get? or can someone with more knowledge be more specific?
Thanks

[PG_fildrigar]

That list is pretty close. A couple of things, though. Two units of Shifting Stones are VERY OFTEN present in the winningest lists. And a Warpwolf Stalker is very important. His Animus is game changing.

[Mattho2k3]

In my opinion a good starting point would be:

Warpwolf Stalker
Feral Warpwolf or Ghettorix
Gorax
Shifting Stones + UA
Shifting Stones
Druid Wilder
Blackclad
2 Units of Woldstalkers or Full unit of Bloodtrackers + Nuala
Gallows Grove (eKaya doesn't need them)

[Lighten]

I think if you're looking at eKaya and pKrueger to start with, I'd probably swap the woldstalkers you've got (neither support/use them terribly well, bloodtrackers are probably better in the slot with both) for another heavy warbeast. Gnarlhorn is a nice support beast once you've got a couple beatstick heavies. Alternately, a third warpwolf works well, too.

Circle tends to have its beasts do the heavy lifting; we've got a nice set of ranged skirmishers in the woldstalkers/bloodtrackers, but we can't usually afford too many points in them or we start to lose killing power. And eKaya really wants a lot of beasts.

(agree with fidrigar that the second unit of stones should probably be there, too. Warpwolf's a kit, so magnetize at least one... pKrueger is the most likely of anyone to pick up a Feral before a Stalker, but you'll want the Stalker option)

[Lighten]

For reference on the bloodtrackers vs. woldstalkers - with pKrueger, bloodtrackers can be terrifying with lightning tendrils, whereas woldstalkers can't use the buff because they don't have melee weapons. With eKaya, you're mostly stealthed, so giving the opponent a convenient target for his shooting in the unstealthed woldstalkers is generally counterproductive.

[mercury]

I have a 'generic' 35-point Circle force that I am happy to use with at least 5 of our Warlocks, and that works particularly well with pKreuger. It hasn't won any tournaments lately, but that's irrelevant since we haven't had a tournament round my way since MK1! The list is:



Warlock
- Megalith
- Feral Warpwolf
- Gorax
6 Druids
3 Shifting Stones
Blackclad Wayfarer
6 Blood Weavers / 6 Blood Trackers *


* either unit is good, though the Blood Weavers are unequivocally better with pKreuger. The Blood Trackers are probably a better choice with some of our other Warlocks though.


This list comes out at 40 points, so I just add a Gallows Grove or Shifting Stones UA if I want to field it with a Warlock who has 6 Warbeast points. I find that the list works plenty well with pKreuger, eKrueger, pBaldur, eBaldur and pKaya. I wouldn't take it with Kromac or Mohsar as they both REALLY want a Warpwold Stalker in my opinion. If I choose to play eKaya, then I generally want to use her Theme Force for the super-fast, reduced-cost Warbeasts. 22 out of the 40 points in this list are compatible with her Theme Force, so additional models would be required if you were to choose something like this, then look to play pKreuger and eKaya.

I have too little experience with Morvahna, Cassius and Grayle to comment on them, though I suspect that they won't work terribly well. Morvahna seems to want more infantry, Grayle wants more solos and the list is missing the cheap souls and spell-enhancing tech that seem to make Cassius work.

[PG_Alviaran]

Sentry stones are legit. Everyone playing them in pBaldur Theme has said they are surprised by how good they are.

The problem is that outside of pBaldur's theme list, they get AT MOST 16" up the table. That 4" makes a huge difference. And when it is 7" because you went first, it becomes insurmountable. Played them outside of his theme, they don't get to the party to really affect things how I'd like (most useful ability IMO: Devour Magic. Steal that fury for a transfer!). 5"+ base size just doesn't do it for what I want them to do. (On the other hand, Gallows Groves have the same movement restrictions, but their primary use is to stay AWAY from the enemy so I can channel spells. Entropic Force is a very secondary ability for me. Very situational.)

Skinwalkers have amazing defensive stats and with a+2 ARM buff they really have potential. Recently I have even manages to kill something with them!

Three casters then. And one of them who I will never take them with again for that reason. And one who can't take him in his theme, where I play him.

When they came out, I got a full unit and I loved them with Kromac. Inviolable Resolve, toss them into combat and let them be roadblocks. And though their killing potential is low, they can CMA to get that ONE kill I need for a Warpath trigger sometimes. But Ghetorix has relegated them to a meh with him. I want to give him Inviolable Resolve because that becomes one REALLY tanky warpwolf.

Now, specifically, neither of these are totally bad, but outside of VERY corner case scenarios, you will not see them showing up in many winning tournament lists, which is what the OP is looking for. They are things he can look to pick up once he is more comfortable with the faction on his own without our advice and when he has discovered his own use for them. But for early purchases, they are simply awful.

For reference on the bloodtrackers vs. woldstalkers - with pKrueger, bloodtrackers can be terrifying with lightning tendrils, whereas woldstalkers can't use the buff because they don't have melee weapons. With eKaya, you're mostly stealthed, so giving the opponent a convenient target for his shooting in the unstealthed woldstalkers is generally counterproductive.

I prefer Bloodtrackers as a ranged skirmishing unit rather than a melee unit. And for that reason, giving them reach is actually counterproductive. You are more likely to get engaged at times if the space is limited for them to get in. Also, if you are using them to charge, reach can also end up engaging more dudes which cuts down your quick work.

Honestly, the best thing I've found for pKrueger and his Lightning Tendrils? Bloodweavers. Cornercase but kind of awesome. Reach helps them trigger gang far more efficiently when they go after a unit. And given their abilities tending to want to go after living models (which is usually infantry and most warbeasts), arcing lightning off of their primary targets is awesome. But again, not a very common Circle unit so not one I'd suggest to either a new player or someone looking for the tournament staples.

To the OP, my opinion is:
-2x Shifting Stone units, with UA: These are so ridiculously common that a list without them is really the exception. Utility pieces.
-Warpwolf Stalker: Hard hitting beatstick with an amazing animus. Also, our only living beast with Pathfinder (odd, I know).
-Gorax: Sometimes, the only way to crack that heavy or kill that caster is to force a frenzy next turn. On top of a great, but risky, animus, he is a four fury light beast for four points who can throw down with his animus if he really has to. Most games, he is kind of hanging back being a fury generator, animus buddy and transfer target. And he is so worth it.

Those are the must haves I think. They can fit with all of our casters.

Other great pieces:
-Druids w/ UA: Shenanigans unit of the highest order. Can effectively sacrifice themselves to make everyone else make it against any shooting army but Legion. Lots of utility.
-Bloodtrackers w/ UA: Short range skirmishing unit. The UA grants them Reform, which is so silly. Lets them move in, shoot and then clear the path for your charging heavies to get at the now revealed targets. Quick Work is the worst ability on the card.
-Woldstalkers: Ranged that can actually become either quite accurate while maintaining range, can get out of combat to still shoot those run-to-engage troops or can actually mark up some damage on a heavy or light before everyone else goes at it. Also, with Self Sacrifice and DEF14, the unit leader can REALLY hold a point sometimes if he toes in. A situational use, but one to keep in mind.
-Ghetorix: I was real down on him, but he is tanky as hell and hits like a truck. Be careful for knockdowns. Our hardest hitting beast in the faction.
-Woldwarden: Great heavy. Fairly resilient (mostly due to a whole mess of boxes) with a useful animus. Most of all though, he has Geomancy. The super arc node is incredibly useful.
-Megalith: Same as the Warden, but more resilient, higher PS (both are pillow fisted though) and one of my favourite animii in the game. His problem? 11 pts and a character.
-Gallows Groves: They have changed a lot. Nice cheap filler for that last point but a great way to swap buffs even with casters who don't do the offensive spell slinging bit. And can shut down tough (though in a very limited range). A pack will probably do ya'.
-Druid Wilder: I like her for the living warbeasts. Fixes some activation order issues with regards to animii at times and can let me throw her out there to let a warbeast go for a big kill (usually with Primal, so I don't need to worry about her survival to leach) while keeping my warlock back if things go badly. Especially useful in my Kromac list since the Druids don't make an appearance.

Overall, these pieces comprise most of my lists. Past them, it becomes which mix of living heavies do I take (I am partial to the Gnarlhorn and Pureblood myself, though I know some people hate them). I think most of these also make up most of the top tournament lists you see out there as well.

[Kyuss]

If you haven't guessed, Circle list planning is 'Top down' rather than 'Bottom up'.

What do I mean by this?

When I play Trolls, 80-90% of my lists will include 2/3 of the same group of units. Namely Fennblades, Burrowers, Long Riders, Kriel Stone Bearer and lackeys. That's 'Bottom Up'. My Caster choice then influences how I will play. For example, with eMadrak, I can aggressively push and pop feat to still attack. With Cally, I'm more likely to brick and cast star-crossed and wait till I get an opening.

Circle however, I always start with the Warlock, then look for Synergies. For example, Bloodweavers are awesome with pKruger, but would I take them over Woldstalkers in a Kromac list, or a Mohsar list? Personally, no.

We don't have any 'stellar' aways take units (the nearest is Druids) like other factions have (Cygnar = Gun mages, Khador = Winterguard or Assasins), so think which casters you like the look of, then plan from there.

Hope that helps

[nerdkingdan]

Wow lot to think about. Likely make the decision this weekend.

[nerdkingdan]

Ok, I thought about it


35 Point army:
-3 eKaya 25
10 warp wolf stalker 35
9 warp wolf 35
4 Gorax 22
8 skin walkers 78
3 shifting stone+UA 22
2 shifting stone 12
2 Druid Wilder 8

$ 237 + Tax for 35 point army?

to move it to 50 at later date:
9 druids+UA 46
9 Warpwolf 35
-3 for completing tier 3 and 4

To move to pKrueger I would have to drop the skin walkers, and pick up a new unit, as well as replace the 2nd warpwolf with something else to get the points balanced out. Either way I can play eKaya with the above and be ready to expand on this with small purchases?

[Mattho2k3]

That looks fine just remember that Skinwalkers are a unit that serves a specific purpose and don't see many lists. It is a good theme force however.

[nerdkingdan]

That looks fine just remember that Skinwalkers are a unit that serves a specific purpose and don't see many lists. It is a good theme force however.

I understood that when I put it together, however I think having a solid plan for a 50 point army, that also follows a theme is a very attractive starting list. Especially when its a relatively effective list, and includes many units that can be used to build other casters when I get the money to add units.

I am sad about their cost in the grand scheme of things, however breaking the tier, for a character unit such as the Bloodtrackers+UA, means I would have to buy both in the long run to attend a tournament any way, so its not as painful of purchase.

[Lighten]

You could consider swapping the skinwalkers for the third warpwolf in your 35 list, and getting them at 50 with the druids. But that's preference.