Harbinger martyr and heal trap list

[loramer]

Ok...first off, let me start by saying that I know the entire concept of this list is a trap and I am perfectly willing to trap myself. Just about all of my Harby lists are very jack heavy and i wanted to try an infantry spam list with her for fun. That being said, I still want the list to be as competitive as possible - I don't want to just hand the game to my opponent.

So, the concept of the list is to have a large number of weapon masters that can not die due to their own rules and due to martyrdom. Here is what I am thinking:

Harby +5
Devout 5
Bastions (full) 8
Knights exemplar 5
Knights exemplar senechal 3
Vilmon 3
Pally 2
Pally 2
TFG (full) 6
Reclaimer 2
pEiyrss 3
Wracks 1

The basic concept is to let a few of the TFG die each turn to fuel the reclaimer and/or heal the KE senny. The bastions will spread out the damage when they can. If they take massive damage, martyr instead of spreading it. Vilmon and Pallies in whatever stance makes them hardest to kill, martrying them when needed. KE senny being martyred when it looks like he won't heal that turn. Reclaimer being martyred nearly every time. Devout is there to shield guard (yes, I know the rules with this, but he should still be able to take a shot now and again), and spell warding if there is spell threat. Harby will heal up all of her damage each turn so she can continue to martyr, until it looks like my opponent has her in range to do good amounts of damage - that's when I start letting things die. KE senny will try and chain attack:smite heavies whenever possible. Reclaimer can kill solos and put a serious hurting on single wound models with soulstorm. Eiyrss is there is to disrupt something every turn if possible, minimizing my opponents damage output (hopefully). Her main target will always be the caster. Second target will be whatever the senny smited. Wracks are there because I had 1 extra point.

If I can free up 1 point I will drop the wracks for heirophant to help with the healing.

I know the matrying is totally a trap, but I wanted to see how much I could do and still win some games. Give me your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

[Eradanphx]

Harbie heal is my favorite! I like the list, but love it even more with a full TFG + UA. Their Mini-feat makes them just amazing. The problem with the martyr trap is the 10" Range, it get's harbie in danger. I would say it would be even more fun dropping in Rhupert to keep the TFG out of range of martyr but still efective at letting the bastions be a great counter charge unit and still screen harbie from danger. And don't underestimate the TFG's ability to clear a path, Ignite, Shield wall, and their mini feat make them an amazing front line, and their CMA make them a threat to a charging Jack. I can't help but put a Vanquisher behind TFG, and think w/ the Bastion's that the devout is just a babysitter. Here is a list i run very similar to what you are suggesting.

Harbinger of Menoth (*5pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 2 Grunts) (5pts)
Temple Flameguard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard (2pts)
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon (3pts)
The Wrack (3 wracks) (1pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

[loramer]

I may change it a little bit to make it more of a "you can't kill me unless I say so" list.


Harby +5
Devout 5
Bastions (full) 8
Knights exemplar 5
Knights exemplar senechal 3
Vilmon 3
Pally 2
Pally 2
Heirophant 2
vassal mechanik 1
vessel of judgement 9

This list loses the fantastic screening power of the TFG, loses the soulstorm and boosted attacks from the reclaimer, loses the disruption bolt for Eiyrss. The change of wracks to heirophant is a definite upgrade.
The boosted attacks from the vessel is a definite upgrade from the reclaimer.
I should not have to martyr as much with the second list - less models and all of the ones in the second list are very resilient.
If something does die, I have the vessel to let it zombie strike.
I also have the possibility of hiding behind the vessel if need be and a menofixer to keep the vessel around a little longer. Although, I did vow to bench him after his last couple failed outings...he might be replaced by wracks. maybe I'll give him one more shot and if this outing doesn't work out, HE'S going on the wracks!

@Eradanphx: I like the thought of the UA with TFG, unfortunately, I do not own them right now, so that is not an option right now. I will have to pick them up and try that out as well. Normally I run a reckoner and vanquisher behind the TFG and it works out fantastically. And the devout is definitely just a babysitter in this list. But I wanted something completely different from what I normally run, so I took out all of the power jacks, vassals and choir. i was a little surprised to see a min unit of bastions in your list. I have been a little disappointed in the min unit compared to the full unit. To me, that 3 points to get 16 more boxes to fill is more than worth it.

[PG_Deist]

Nicia is a great add. Def 16 and stealth keep her pretty safe, then she dives in for some serious damage

[loramer]

Nicia would be a nice fit. I will see if I can add her in. Good suggestion. I may drop the heirophant and menofixer for her in the second list or drop eiyrss for her in the first list.

[loramer]

Ended up dropping heirophant and menofixer for nicia and using list 2.

The list was AMAZING!

It worked just as well as in theory and was a ton of fun to play. Paladins and bastion were a pain for my opponent to kill, and when they did die, doors of judgment got them attacks on the opposing caster nearly every time. Martyrdom to keep charge/trample lanes clogged up worked well and was only needed in minimal ammounts. Vessel admonisher shots did damage to hard targets and surrounding support exceptionally well. Nicia (with some very hot dice rolls) caused all sorts of havok (I believe she took out 8 points in the last game by herself and was in position for a charge on the back of karchev when dice down was called). Devout took a shot that would otherwise go on harby 4 times in 2 games. All in all, everything in the list was exceptionally useful and if I ever want a "go to" serious tournament list for 35 points, I think this will be the one I go for.

Oh, and a unit of daughters + anastasia as the reinforcements worked perfectly.

If any of you want a list that plays very differently from our normal "choir/vassal supporting jacks who do all the heavy lifting" type of lists, I would suggest trying this list out. This list was the most fun list I have ever played and it is extremely effective.

@paradox: If you read this, I concede my previous point that battle engines are for fun and not for competitive tourney lists. The vessel is what makes this list both fun and competitive. I had only seen lists where BEs were used like jacks that can't get focus, rather than where they were more useful than a jack could be - even with focus. So apparently I just have not seen them in the right lists. I concede my previous position...please don't wrack me.

@PG_Deist: Thank you very much for the Nicia suggestion. She was amazing in this list. I had to hold her back the first turn to keep her in martyrdom range, but that let her destroy lots of stuff from that point on. She was worth at least twice her point cost in this list.

[loramer]

I know I'm the only one posting here, but there seem to be a decent number of views so I thought I would give an update.

So far the list is 8-1 and a 25 point version of it (dropped the 3 pallies and the Senny) is 1-0. First loss came last night to a very shooty pCaine list and it wasn't the list's fault that I lost...I forgot to pop my feat and my opponent made me pay for it, plus I tried the assassination run on pCaine and was 3.1 inches away through the forest so I had no LOS for cataclysm. My opponent played very well and made me pay for all of my mistakes. Even with the mistakes this list still had chances to win.

I did get 1 zombie harby kill on pCaine in the 25pt game (my first zombie caster kill!).

I am debating whether or not to drop a paladin for the Covenant. Having the covenant in the list to prevent spellcasting would have shut down pCaine's move, shoot, teleport away trick, as well as many other caster's tricks. And if the caster has no tricks, no KD on the infantry is always useful. I would lose a lot of hitting power, but this list is definitely not lacking in the hitting power department. I have not had any issues with heavies so far. I have wrecked or made useless a heavy in pretty much every list it has faced so far, sometimes 2 or 3 heavies in a single game. The only problems that I have run into have been with movement shenanigans from spells (and my own stupid mistakes of failed assassinations and forgetting to pop feat).

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Anyone interested in battle reports with this list?
Anyone care about this list?
Anyone try out this list or a similar version yet?
Anyone want me to stop posting about this list?
Anyone want a lollipop?

[regleant]

I can see where preventing KD would be helpful. If your models are KD, they can't zombie-kill. This also limits the effectiveness of Bastions as they are being Slammed into each other. On the flip side, leading with Dartan and Pals could prevent some of that as well, but then it is a slow, slow army.

Have all of your games been assassination? How have you done with Objectives? I imagine once you get to the objective, you aren't easily dislodged.

I'm also curious how the Devout has performed for you. He's slow, so keeps up fine with your army. But that's 5 points with decidedly no hitting power. In the one list I had a Devout in, I recently upgraded it to a Templar in order to get better use out of it and pose a larger threat to the opponent. At the very least, it attracted more attention, which is what I wanted - it's just there to die.

[Lanz]

I run Harbinger as a heal-heavy list myself, and I find that min Vengers are pretty much a requirement. They block LoS to harbinger, can be made immune to knockdown, are ARM 19 after they take damage and can be kept alive through most punishment with Martyrdom. So they are hard to plink to death (arm 19 sits outside of the realistic damage range for normal infantry PS), they are hard to move out of the way or knock down, they block full LoS, and they can't be easily removed.

Then on the offensive side, they are huge with Crusader's Call and Guided Hand. I've also used Martyrdom with them to let them shrug off free strikes in order to move in for the kill. Also, as they stand as Harbinger's bodyguards, they are much more likely to have Battle Driven active (and live to tell about it) when you need it, so +2 str and pathfinder when it counts.

I would actually trust them over the devout for the role of defending Harbinger, and for only 2 points more, I find they are infinitely more versatile and effective. Even if you don't need them for a bodyguard role in a particular game, their natural synergies with harbinger make them good models to take anyways.

[loramer]

The Devout is in the list because I need to spend the jack points on something and he protects harby pretty well. Plus, since he is there purely for defense, I don't spend focus on him, which lets me heal. I have spent a focus/turn on him against spell slinger casters just to use spell ward on harby to prevent any spell assassinations. So far he has proven to be effective at shield guarding harby and/or the vessel. Honestly, with the hitting power of the infantry, I don't really need him to do any damage - he just needs to keep harby and the vessel alive.

So far all of the games have been assassination wins, but I have always been up on scenario points and my opponent has not been able to get scenario points from me. So while I have not been winning by scenario, I have been very able to prevent losses by scenario with this list and grabbing a scenario point early is usually a goal to force my opponent to contest objectives.

I would really like to try out the vengers in this list. I don't own any and so haven't even thought about them. I will have to proxy them a couple of times and see how they run. Looking through the stats, they sound like they would be an amazing addition. For the 35 point list I will probably drop bastions and KE senny for a full unit of them. For 50 points I will try and just add a full unit of them in with my pally that I dropped and anastasia.

Switching out the bastions for vengers will definitely add a lot to my threat range. The only real problem that I have had with this list so far is that it can be rather slow - and against a list that has a lot of ranged attacks I tend to take a lot of damage (although most everything stays alive).

[Marzuki]

I would love a battle report. I'm interested in seeing exactly how you are using the Vessel. I'm a little hesitant to shell out the cash for one at the moment.

[shady]

I like the list no Cursaders is hard to due really she craves them yet your doing it better then i first thought I am a Harby player for life in menoth shes by far my fav caster in the game. I really think your list i will give a shot

[loramer]

Played in a 35 point tourney today. Only 1 list was required, a second one was optional, but I chose to just run the Harby list and see how it did on its own.
I ended up dropping the second paladin for the Covenant mainly to prevent movement shenanigans through spells. That change made all the difference.
Vessel did not shoot as many models down today as it has in the past, but it was definitely worth its points.

Full battle report below. Opponents lists are to the best of my recollection.

My final list was:
Harbinger of Menoth 5
Devout 5
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4) 8
Knights Exemplar 5
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon 3
Paladin of the Order of the Wall 2
Knights Exemplar Seneschal 3
Nicia, Tear of Vengeance 3
Covenant of Menoth 2
Vessel of Judgement 9


Game 1: Harby vs. Witch Coven.

Witch Coven of Garlghast 5
Slayer 6
Deathripper 4
Deathripper 4
Deathripper 4
Bane Thralls (Leader and 9) 8
Bane Thrall Officer & Standard Bearer 3
Bile Thralls (Leader and 9) 8
Pistol Wraith 3

Scenario was Diversion (Radial Scenario) - Flag to each players right; control zone in each deployment zone - must control your flag and contest zone on opposite side of board to get control points.

Both of us set up in a more of less brick formation at the edge of our deployment zones in the control zones. There was notable terrain - an L shaped piece of unpassable terrain right next to my flag (on my right) and a large sloped hill about 5 inches away just to the left of it, creating a natural bottleneck. There was also a similar piece of unpassable terrain across the table, but it didn't really come into play.
Round 1:My opponent went first and ran everything up. Pistol Wraith and a deathripper up my left flank (towards his flag); Slayer and deathripper on other flank; everything else up the middle. Coven moving up only a little. Big cloud in the bottleneck section blocking LOS through it to anything of his.
I run KE through the bottleneck, Vilmon, KE senny up my left flank, Pally and Nicia up my right flank (this is mostly to just slow down the deathripper and slayer over there). Devout runs up on hill, Vessel runs up just behind KE, blocking the bottleneck. Bastions run up on hill with a couple stuck behind the vessel. Harby feats and charges towards one of my KE on the hill and fails charge when she contacts the bastion. Book runs but can only get next to harby with everything bottled up.

Round 2: My opponent walks a deathripper onto his flag and takes about 7 damage from the feat (which he forgot about). Arcs a Stygian Abyss spell onto harby (so she cannot move next turn). Pistol wraith shoots bastion on the hill 2 times for a couple damage and hits the third time to force me to give up movement or action with him next turn. Slayer and Deathripper move closer onto my flag without having to take feat damage. Rest of army sits still so they don't all die to feat or give up ground. Coven pops feat and puts another big cloud in front of the vessel.
I charge deathripper on my left with Vilmon but miss. Run KE Senny behind deathripper (had no LOS due to big hill). KE run forward again to be the sacrificial lambs. Devout runs behind them. Vessel walks behind devout and into cloud, but due to feat still has no LOS to any enemies. Bastions run around vessel and behind KE. One of them engages the deathripper with Vilmon and Senny. Nicia charges deathripper on my right and does some damage and takes out his head. Pally walks up to slayer and goes into impervious wall. Harby sits on hill and deos nothing.
2 turns so far and nothing has died, but both feats have been popped.

Turn 3: He walks up and purges 3 biles thralls at the KE, devout and vessel - 1 KE was martyred to keep him in charge lanes, 2 more die. Vessel pops doors on one of the KE to kill off another bile that would have purged. He then arcs ghostly on the banes and charges them. Devout kills one of them with defensive strike. 3 attack the vessel, but only 2 hit - they do all but 5 points of damage on it. 1 hits devout and disables his halberd. 2 more kill off a KE each. 1 puts some damage on the bastions. Pistol wrath tries to shoot senny in melee with deathripper but misses. (He was too far out to gain any souls so far). Slayer kills Nicia with a boosted attack which frees up deathripper to arc a stygian abyss at the paladin which kills pally with boosted damage. His deathripper and Slayer are now dominating the area with my flag on the far side of the obstruction. Third deathripper moves midfield to arc a stygian abyss at harby that misses due to me being on hill.
My turn - Vessel uses Eruption of Faith (now down to 3 health) and sets 4 banes on fire and push them away to free up a little bit of charge lanes. Shoots bile thrall and kills it, admonisher only kills 1 more. Bastions declare charges and kill the bane standard bearer twice, (making both tough rolls), does about 1/2 of the damage grid on the deathripper on his flag, and kills bane UA officer and 1 more bane. KE charge and kill standard bearer again, who makes his tough roll again and kill another bane. Devout kills another bane with shield but misses another with broken halberd. (Apparently the only bane that can make a tough roll is the one that grants them all tough.) Vilmon scraps the deathripper on my left. Senny kills pistol wraith. He now completely controls my flag and I completely control his flag. No one is going to get a control point any time soon. I heal up the damage on harby and move the covenant up and say no KD because it is still about 18" from coven. I would really love to prevent them from casting, but they are hanging back and everything is between book and coven.

Turn 4: Fire kills off 3 banes, fourth fire goes out - 1 makes tough roll. Biles move up but can't purge this turn without killing banes. Banes kill off Vessel, KE and do all of the damage to bastions that can be transferred. Harby has to martyr twice to keep all bastions around and 1 more time to keep the last KE. Deathripper arcs ghostly onto itself to walk through obstruction and chomp on devout a bit. Devout misses defensive strike on him. Devout only has a couple of movement boxes left. Slayer walks partially around obstruction. Other deathripper stands in middle and hits harby with stygian abyss to keep her in place again. Coven camps remaining focus.
My turn - Bastions kill off standard bearer and 3 more banes and hits middle deathripper. Vilmon charges biles to kill one and engage all but two. Senny charges middle deathripper in back and kills it with charge attack and second attack. Devout walks up and engages one more bile but can't hit anything. Final KE kills one more bane. covenant walks up to final bane to block it in over at the bottleneck. Harby stands still and heals up.

Turn 5: Unengaged bile purges and kills final KE, a bastion, the devout, and Vilmon - who gets martyred. The other infantry are too far away to martyr since harby has been stuck in the back for a few turns. The other biles can't do anything and just shuffle a little. Bane hits book for 1. deathripper misses devout twice. Slayer runs to near middle to get back into the game but can't do anything this turn.
My turn - harby martyrs vilmon and a bastion from corrosion. Devout misses bile and deathripper. Vilmon charges past the biles (who have no melee weapon) to attack a witch in the back, but rolls snake eyes. Harby heals up. Bastions kill off remaining biles and bane. He is now down to a damaged deathripper (arc node has been destroyed, but i don't remember by what), an undamaged slayer and the coven.

Turn 6: deathripper misses devout. Slayer kills a bastion. A witch fails to kill Vilmon. Egregore (the beach ball thingy that is the point of origin for the covens spells) runs away from vilmon and takes a free strike which is spread to all witches but kills none. His other witched then cast 2 stygian abysses at harby but fails to kill her. I shouldn't have healed up last turn, I should have camped, but I didn't even think about egregore running away from vilmon to cast spells at harby.
My turn - vilmon shakes corrosion and kills one witch. Remaining bastions charge egregore and kill the others.


This post is ridiculously long, so I will end this one and post the other two matchups on separate posts.

[loramer]

A couple of quick notes about matchup 1 for those that don't want to read the long battle report:

- The vessel killed off 3 bane thralls with fire, only shot 2 biles, but used doors twice to kill off 2 more biles and prevent them from purging, which prevented a lot of damage.
- The devout actually killed a few things. Usually I have him back just babysitting, but since my opponent didn't have much in the form of ranged to hit harby or the vessel, this seemed like the better option. I could have put a focus on him each turn and used his spell barrier ability to prevent harby from being targeted by spells, but I thought this was the better option.
- 4 of 5 bastions survived and the bastions killed a ton of models and tied up midfield with reach very effectively.
- Nicia and the pally did not kill anything, but they did draw the slayer and a deathripper off the side where they were mostly ineffective.
- Covenant could not get upfield enough to prevent spellcasting on the coven. Bad deployment of it on my part. Had it been able to get further upfield it would have made that a much easier win. As it was, that was a very difficult win and very taxing on the brain - but a really fun game.

[loramer]

Matchup #2:

Harby vs. pCaine

This was against the player that I have been playing a lot lately and he is the only one that has defeated this list so far and it was with a similar pCaine list. I knew this game was going to be rough.

His list:
Captain Allister Caine 5
Hunter 6
Ol Rowdy 9
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (6) 6
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team (3) 4
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer 2
Journeyman Warcaster 3
Squire 2
Stormsmith Stormcaller 1
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (10) 5
Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist 2

He was going to use rangers instead of Alexia and the risen, but he forgot those models. Something in the list isn't quite right because he had Reinholt in the list, but I can't figure out what wasn't in the list.

Scenario was Overrun (one big control zone in center). Very little terrain on this board. Unfortunate for me as there is nothing to hide behind.

We both deploy pretty standardly in the center.

Turn 1: He puts arcane shield on ol' rowdy, snipe on the hunter. Everything else runs up. Some of the ATGM can't run forward because some were deployed behind the risen and he activated the wrong ones first.
My turn - everything except harby and nicia run forward. nicia hangs back close enough to be martyred/doors, harby feats and fail charges ahead.

Turn 2: pCaine walks forward and takes a few damage from feat, but the feats and catches all but harby and devout in his control. Combined with his initial attacks and the Reinholt shot, that was 19 pow 12 shots which I think all hit. He boosted damage on the bastions. All but 2 KE die and I martyred the senny, vilmon, a pally, and 2 bastions. I use doors on one of the KE who does not hit Caine. He teleports back behind his army. He then shot the vessel with an armor piercing shot from the hunter and did 10 or so damage, wrecking it. ATGM take some shots and kill off a pally and a bastion that are too far to martyr and I have to martyr another bastion. Alexia and risen do nothing. B13 true shot snipe down Nicia who is also martyred. Harby is really hurting at this point and I have lost about 1/2 of my infantry...all on my feat turn.
My turn - Only Alexia and a couple of risen are in the zone, so I try to at least get a control point. KE charge the Hunter, 'Ol rowdy countercharges one of them and kills him, I use doors on him and still hit the hunter and wreck his gun. Second KE charges rowdy but only does a couple points of damage since he has arcane shield on. Bastions charge and kill a couple of risen, do some damage to rowdy and wreck the big hammer, and kill a ATGM and engages 3 more ATGM. Vilmon charges rowdy and rolls really poorly on damage and does nothing. Pally charges a risen and kills it. Nicia charges B13 and engages all 3 from reach, but fails to kill any of them. Vessel shoots risen to try and kill off Alexia and the risen in the zone, but only gets 1 more risen from admonisher. No control point for me. Harby heals a few, but not all because there are too many potential range shots coming her way. Book walks up in the middle of the field and prevents spellcasting.

Turn 3: Hunter shoots vessel with armor piercing shot again and wrecks it. Devout was close enough to take the shot, but was not in hunter's LOS so couldn't save it. Ol' Rowdy kills two bastions which are both martyred. ATGM kills the last KE, Vilmon and a bastion, but due to the high martyr damage rolls on the previous 2 bastions, I can't martyr any more. Journeyman kills another bastion, B13 kills Nicia and another Bastion. Alexia and risen kill the final bastion and then shoots harby which I send to the devout. Caine walks up and shoots the KE Senny to death but then can't teleport away due to the book. Gorman throws black oil on harby, which does nothing because she can't be blinded. The first time that has ever come up for me.
My turn - I have the devout and the harby, who has 3 life remaining. Harby charges the journeyman and kills it and then cataclysms pCaine to death.

[loramer]

Quick notes for matchup #2:

This was the type of list that I was most afraid of. Large quantity of ranged attacks. Sure, most of them are only pow 10 or pow 12, but when you take 30+ of them in a single turn your army gets decimated quickly.
I should have lost this game. Had my opponent not moved caine up to shoot the senny on that last turn, there was nothing I could do. Luckily for me, my opponent made a mistake and I was able to capitalize on it.
In the future I will take two lists and not take harby against lists that have large quantities of ranged attacks. The player I was playing against is a good player and does not make mistakes like that often. I definitely cannot count on lucking out like that more than once.

It is possible that switching the bastions for vengers could help against these type of matchups. I will have to try them out soon and see how they work.


All that being said, the last game we played I made a big mistake and he capitalized on it, so this was just revenge.

[eKraye]

Assassination run wise, he's missing maddy corbeau, slyls (squire is ok as well). should've had a officer marshalling the hunter if he really thought he needed it, no reason for a journeyman. The rangers missing isn't huge, but it definitely helps for the assassination run and the gun mages since he doesn't have access to dead eye. No reinholdt is weird, because he's neglecting an extra attack on the assassination run (in exchange for a stormsmith( in an already inf killy list) ).

Those might be a few things, I suspect he used AS on rowdy? but realistically that's a waste when he could've dropped the caller and jr. for Aiyana & Holt for the assassination run... His list seems more pcaine friendly, but doesn't synergize well with either caster. (it's just a generic "this is what I've got" list).

EDIT: He also lacks a tarpit, which significantly hurts Caine for setting up aforementioned assassination runs, if you're thinking "hey maybe he didn't want to assassinate with caine!".... Then he's playing it wrong and the list is void.

[loramer]

Matchup #3:

Harby vs eFeora at the finals table. First and second were going to go to true believers, so it was a good day for Menoth (regleant
also took first in a tournament at another store, so it was a really good day for Menoth! - Congrats regleant!)

Feora, Protector of the Flame 6
Castigator 8
Vanquisher 8
Redeemer 6
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3) 2
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4) 8
Hierophant 2
Wrack 1
Covenant of Menoth 2
Vassal of Menoth 2
Vassal of Menoth 2

Redeemer was bonded. I have played almost this exact list multiple times. I knew my entire army was going to be set on fire. I needed to keep Harby back to be able to get the fire off harby. Fire on harby can mean a really quick game.

Scenario was "Outflank, Outfight, Outlast" Normally this is a scenario with reinforcements, but this was a tournament without reinforcements.

Both of us deploy pretty standard center deployments.

Turn 1: I run KE and spread them out a little. Bastions run behind them. Vessel runs up the middle. Vilmon and Pally walk and go into impervious wall. nicia doesnt move. Everything else runs.
His turn - Choir battles. He casts escort, walks up a bit, runs vanquisher. redeemer walks forward and shoots 3 times - 1 deviates onto nothing, 1 hits devout and vessel, which is immune to fire, 1 drifts onto senny, a pally (can't be set on fire or hurt by the shot) and a bastion. Vanquisher shoots from vassal shot and sets a couple KE on fire and another Bastion. redeemer drifts a shot onto the book and harby (CRAP!).

Turn 2: Only harby and the book are outside feora's control, and niether go out. Thankfully the damage roll on harby only does a couple damage. She has to martyr the Senny and a couple of KE die. Bastions spread damage. KE run up. Bastions run up. Senny runs up. vessel walk up and shoots vanquisher to get an admonisher shot onto feora, but I can't get through her armor even with boosting. devout walks up. Vilmon and pally walk and go into impervious wall again. harby purifies off escort and the fire on her and the book, feats and then walks up. I am controlling both control points but can't score until the end of his turn.
His turn - castigator walks up to contest right zone (takes no damage from feat because it is fire damage) and combusts, which kills 2 more KE, one of which I use doors with to hit back at the castigator, doing minimal damage. vanquisher walks up and takes no damage from feat due to low roll. He hits a bastion and sets him on fire and another bastion on fire. damage is spread out. Redeemer stands still and does some more damage to bastions and sets the rest of the bastions on fire, as well as setting harby and the book on fire again. (CRAP again!) Bastions walk up to contest the left zone and kill a KE and take a bunch of damage from the feat which is all spread out. vassal lets redeemer shoot again but deviation hits nothing. Other vassal can't move up due to feat. His book walks to middle and prevents spellcasting and takes 1 damage from the feat.

Turn 3: Fire cannot go out on anything. fire damage on harby is again low. I have to martyr the senny again. One more KE dies to fire - I use doors on it to kill off a bastion. The remaining KE charge the bastions and kill off 2 more. My bastions charge and nearly scrap the castigator and kill another of his bastions. Vilmon charges the castigator and finishes it off. The senny walks up to the vanquisher and hits it 3 times to smite it into feora. No damage on feora from the collateral damage, but now she and the vanq are KD. Vessel shoots feora directly and does a few points with boosted shot. Admonisher shots don't hurt anything. Nicia walks up and shoots his book for another point of damage. My book walks up close to front lines and prevents spellcasting. I gain 2 control points. 1 more to win.
His turn - Feora spends a focus to stand. choir battles. Vanq shoot my bastion and I spread damage. Redeemer shoots 3 shots at the book but misses twice. deviations kill a KE and sets the remaining one on fire as well as the pally. book is at 3 health. vanquisher shoots at book but is short. deviation forces a martyr on a bastion. His Bastion kills the KE, which I use doors to put another point on his book. eFeora walks up and feats and is now camping a lot of focus. fire is now on nicia also. She kills off a bastion. I let it die because harby has 11 boxes left and I don't want to die to fire. He realizes late in his turn that only his bastion with 1 health is contesting the left zone and he can only run the heirophant to contest the right zone.

Turn 4: Fire roll on harby is again really low. A bastion dies to fire but the rest of my army survives. His dice have abandoned him this game. Apparently his previous game they were really hot, so they were due to go cold. I charge the heirophant with Vilmon to take the right zone and charge the bastion with my bastions to take the left zone. I claim the 2 more control points and win by scenario.

[loramer]

Quick notes for matchup #3:

Fire on harby is really scary. Thankfully those damage rolls were low this time.
- Bastions were violent in this matchup. Having Harby martyr them when they take massive damage really makes them a pain to kill.
- eFeora is a pain in the butt to kill. Thankfully I got the scenario points and didn't have to kill her.
- I got a lot of charges off this matchup with the weaponmasters, which made their damage output really high.
- harby's feat really helps split the opponent's forces and helps gain control points a lot.
- The book was a pain in the butt to kill and prevented eFeora from casting things like escort and firestep, which might have given him an assassination run. I was willing to martyr the book another couple of times to prevent this, which would have made the fire have a chance to kill me. Thankfully the redeemer has problems hitting the broadside of a barn.
- The chain attack:smite from the senny is an attack that a lot of people tend to forget about and generally has good targets for.

[loramer]

All in all, everything in the list today worked effectively except Nicia. But, she has proven useful on previous outings.

The covenant was definitely an upgrade and I'm glad I swapped the pally for it.

I hope you all enjoyed the battle reports and the observations.

[loramer]

Whoops!

The cygnar list has eCaine listed. It was against pCaine, who has 1 more warjack point, which is where reinholt came in. And the ATGM UA was marshalling the hunter.

[Marzuki]

Very interesting battle reports. I'm not sure I'm sold on the Vessel yet but I'm definitely interested in Bastions now.

[regleant]

Oooh, I got a call-out in the forums.

Congrats again on the victory. Your games sound much closer than mine, and far more interesting, so no need to write a battle report on my games, though my second game was hilariously bad for everybody involved. It's a bad day when T4 eKreoss is left with the KE Seneschal and NO OTHER TROOPS, against Gorten and NO OTHER TROOPS. Weird game.


I may need to consider Bastions, again. Also, I will look at how I use Harbinger, again. This is helpful.

[PG_roastbill]

I was matchup 3. I really liked this list. While I was disappointed in the damage on a torched harbinger, I was very impressed with the list. Making the good book impossible to kill, made a firestep into an assassination run impossible. You are right tho, her being on fire SHOULD be scary . Anyway, I was impressed with your list to a point it will see me buying a vessel now..

Good game

Bill

[loramer]

@Bill, regleant and Marzuki: Glad you guys enjoyed the battle reports and glad that they might be inspiring more use of Bastions and Vessel. They have been a ton of fun to play and I hope that you guys have as much fun with them as I have.

@eKraye: Trust me...my opponent that played the pCaine list had a very solid list and he plays it well. He had a bit of an off game against me (I blame the bar the night before), but normally our games are extremely close battles and can go either way. I appreciate you reading this thread and hope that you got something from it. I am disappointed that you would say If he doesn't do x "then he is playing it wrong and the list is void".

This thread, as well as the harby & pirates thread, are extremely good examples of how a caster that has been used excessively one way can still be used very effectively in other methods. Harby has been known for quite some time as a Heavy Jack caster. That is how I had always played her previous to this and how many others have also. "Put as many heavies in her list as possible" was the suggestions that I got when I asked for help with Harby when I first started playing with her. That method can work extremely well, but there are other options and I am glad that, while people suggested that tactic to me, they never tried to tell me that was the only way to play her. Otherwise I may have never tried out something like this.

Feel free to offer suggestions on how things might work better, but please do not close your mind off to other options and for Menoth's sake, don't tell people that there is only one way to play anything. Innovative lists and tactics can be a lot of fun and I would appreciate it if you did not try to deny people of this fun.

As a side note, please notice that that list worked exceptionally well and had he kept his caster back I would have had no chance to win. The only loss that my harby list has had so far was against pretty much the same list with rangers in place of risen. So, I don't think he actually needed to change anything in that list.



Ok...getting off my soapbox now.


Thank you to all Protectorate posters for keeping our threads constructive and enjoyable to read. Every once in a while I will head over to the cygnar forums to be reminded how much I love you guys. Every once in a while they will head over here and remind us all.


Ok...so, maybe I was still on the soapbox...getting down now.


There is a 50pt tourney coming up soon and I an hoping to run this list with Vengers added in. I will have to try out a few games with them and come up with some money to buy them if they work well. I will keep you guys posted.

[Marzuki]

Did you ever try running this list with the Vengers? I'm thinking about trying this out in a 1 list tournament coming up and would like to know how the Vengers performed over the Bastions.

[Lanz]

This thread, as well as the harby & pirates thread, are extremely good examples of how a caster that has been used excessively one way can still be used very effectively in other methods. Harby has been known for quite some time as a Heavy Jack caster. That is how I had always played her previous to this and how many others have also. "Put as many heavies in her list as possible" was the suggestions that I got when I asked for help with Harby when I first started playing with her.

I've never seen any serious player advocate this. I've rarely ever even seen it presented on the forums except by new players. Mk2 gave Harbinger a neat theme list that enabled heavy-'jack lists as an alternative mode of play, but an emphasis on infantry has always been Harbinger's forte ever since she was first released.

[Marzuki]

I've never seen any serious player advocate this. I've rarely ever even seen it presented on the forums except by new players. Mk2 gave Harbinger a neat theme list that enabled heavy-'jack lists as an alternative mode of play, but an emphasis on infantry has always been Harbinger's forte ever since she was first released.

Martyrdom alone is enough to warrant this. It's just the massive focus pool that tempts a jack heavy list.

[stormshaft]

Very inspiring thread!
If me and my friends are able to get a game-night up tonight I will definately bring the following list:

Harbringer +5
- Devout 5p

Full Bastions 8p
Knights Exemplar 5p
KE Senny 3p
Vilmon 3p
Pally 2p
Nicia 3p
Book of Love 2p
Vessel 9p

I can almost field it totally painted (need to paint two more Bastions), gotta take some pictures.
Seems like loads of fun to play. I'll be back later with the results.

[loramer]

I have run her jack heavy since I started with her and have had good success. That was the suggestion that I got from two good players when I first got her and I had thought that that was how most others played her. Apparently I was playing the alternative theory to start with and have now moved to the standardized version.

As for the Vengers, I have tried them out a few times and have not had as much success with them as with the bastions. With only 5 wounds, they tend to die a lot easier than the bastions and when you spend that many points on them, you feel compelled to martyr them repeatedly. They are also very difficult to use offensively, while still staying close enough to martyr/doors. The second issue should be able to be alleviated through more playtime with them. At 35 I am definitely keeping the Bastions in. At 50, I may add the Vengers to the list. I like the Vengers and love the models, so I would really like to get them into the list, but I just haven't gotten them to work like I want them to just yet.

I ran a 50 point game without the vengers last night. I was playing against a very good legion player and did not want to try and use models that I was not comfortable with yet. I ended up losing vs. Searyn. It was a fantastic game and I had a lot of fun playing it, but in the end I forgot about the Angelius' animus and couldn't prevent the charge on harby. I also martyred 1-2 times too many the turn before and I knew that I shouldn't have. I will try and get a battle report up if I get a chance.

[stormshaft]

The list worked like a charm. Went up against eKaya tier-list and a 3rd turn assassination charge from Vilmon under Crusaders Call and Guided Hand did the job (for some reason he had no Fury on her at that point).
Had to martyr him and his Paladin friend twice though.

Exceptionally funny list to play.

How do you do your 50p lists since you don't want to field Vengers yet (I probably won't either, they seem to be too fast to be martyred anyway, plus they can "only" hit with the sword when they get zombiefied)?
I might try to fint a Hierophant and a Mechanik in there somehow, I didn't really miss them on 35p but they will bring extra frustration when they are on the board.

[loramer]

I have tried a few different incarnations at 50 points and have not found a list that works great yet. The closest that I have come is with adding in the heirophant, menofixer, a paladin, and errants with UA. But, that list lost to pCaine last night. pCaine is a rough matchup for this list and I think that list worked pretty well, but I just can't seem to get pCaine with this list. In a tourney I would not choose this list if i saw my opponent was playing cygnar in general, but definitly if I saw that he had lists with large numbers of pow 10-12 shots. This list works great against anything that does damage in large chunks but struggles when there are lots of small chunks of damage being thrown around.

Having the heirophant in the 50 point list I think is pretty much a must. The heirophant healed about 30 points off harby throughout the game and without the heiro I would not have stood a chance. I had the wracks in instead of the menofixer and that was a definite mistake.

The next incarnation of the 50 point list I will try will be the 35 point list + heirophant, menofixer, pally, Rhupert and another unit of Bastions. The bastions have been the bane of my enemy in just about every game that I have played and having a second unit of them + rhupert to give out tough or pathfinder I think will help a lot. I lose out on the initial shots from the errants and now there are fewer bodies on my side, but I haven't had much luck with the KEE in this list yet - that may just be due to the recent matchups though, so I will try and get another game in with them against something that isn't cygnar to see.

I think the definite additions that I want for this list at 50 are the heirophant, menofixer, and rhupert.
The "I really want unless I come up with something a lot better" would be the pally that was dropped for the covenant at 35.
That leaves 8 points to play with. Right now that will be the second unit of bastions. If I get time, I will proxy a min unit of Vengers and another menofixer and see if I can't get the Vengers to work for me.

If I had another vessel, I might drop the pally again to get another vessel and another menofixer...but I only have one vessel so that is not an option for me right now. If anyone has 2 vessels and can try the list out for me to let me know if the second vessel is all that I hoped it would be, that would be great.

I have had a great time working with this list and even more fun playing it. I am very fearful of the day when I start seeing colossals on the board though. Colossals seem to be geared towards heavy amounts of anti-infantry and that will spell lots of trouble for this list.

[vvp]

if you have problems with shooting you can add units with cloud effects.

For 5 points a unit of Cleansers can lay down 1 4 inch cloud.

For 2 point Gorman can add a 3" aoe smoke.

[loramer]

Played this list at 50 and I think this may be the final revision:

harby +5
Devout 5 (0)
heirophant 2
Bastions (max) 8
Bastions (max) 8
Knights Exemplar 5
Knights Exemplar Seneschal 3
Nicia 3
Vilmon 3
Pally 2
Pally 2
Rhupert 2
Covenant 2
Vessel of judgment 9
Vassal Mechanik 1

Played this against a very good legion player running:

Evayl
ravagore x 2
Angelius x 2
Scythean
harrier
legionaires full
spawning vessel full
sheperd x 2
Spell martyr

The list worked exactly as it should. ravagores were the main problem with their long range continuous fire shots. Thankfully harby shook the fire the only time she was lit. My dice were cold to start with, but got super hot at the end (a charging pally trashed an angelius with only 3 wounds on it with a charge). I also rolled well on martyrs for most of the game which helped a ton. The covenant was the MVP as it just kept walking upfield and prevent spellcasting. I had to martyr it 3 times to keep it around, but I think I only took 4 damage doing so. That kept his caster way in the back preventing him from charging harby with angelius (because he would not have been able to force it that far up). He also had no chance to pop his feat with any effectiveness, so his feat never got popped. I have definitely gotten better at running this list through all of the practice, but I did forget to use doors a couple times when I should have. Although, that was the only real mistake(s) that I noticed on my side. i take that back...I did underutilize Vilmon and got him way out of position to the point that I had to run him late in the game jsut to get him into the game and them he died to an angelius to keep the senny alive. I should have used doors on him then to hit the angelius back, but that was one of the times I forgot to do it. The only real mistakes that I thought my opponent made were having his shepherds close enough to his beasts that i could abmonisher shots onto them. Other than those few mistakes it was a solid game on both sides, I thought. It did take a long time to whittle him down, which worries me for timed play, but without a clock this list only seems to have real problems with cygnar, and the additional set of bastions may have helped solve that problem. In tourney play with timed turns it should be ok; with deathclock it will be a challenge just because it takes so many turns to finish off good opponents. Getting through that many turns with any dice down timer will be rough. Lesser opponents who rush my army make the game go by much faster, but the smart ones that stay back and shoot at me from range as long as possible are the ones that take a long time to finish off and will be the issue in tourneys.

As for the additions made at 50 points, I think everything is solid.
The mechanik was definitely a good add and kept the vessel up and running throughout the game with plenty of health to not worry about using miracles or boosting. The extra set of bastions were even tougher to take down than the first set because now with 10 of them, damage was being spread out between two units (Not spread from one unit to the other, but spreading damage on each unit). Rhupert worked exceptionally well, even though I never made any tough rolls. The pathfinder on the bastions let them charge over a wall a couple times, which made a huge difference in damage output. The senny was again fantastic - he nearly trashed a ravagore in 1 turn and finished off the other ravagore the next turn. Nicia was not as useful this game, but I still really like her in this list and she has done really well in other games. The heirophant healed about 8 damage off of harby, which let her camp a lot more. Vessel was exceptionally useful, even though I forgot to use doors a couple times. It was able to admonisher shots on to both shepherds fairly early game, which made fury management much more of an issue for my opponent. It also was able to pop shots on to his heavies and do decent damage to them from range. I was very happy to have the devout in the game for spell ward on harby to prevent him from arcing obliteration on to her from a long ways a way. Vilmon was positioned and used poorly by me that game, but helped with board control. The pallies did great damage output and with impervious wall were able to control sections of the board. The covenant was the MVP by shutting down spellcasting on a heavy spellcaster and forcing my opponent to play her in an extremely back position.

I'm still having a ton of fun playing this list and I think it will definitely be my go to tourney list for a while. Now I just need a good compliment list to focus on Cygnar.