The Kraken

[SjoerdH]

Kraken is very high on my wish list. I want to play a 50 points army of Coven, Kraken, Harrower, Leviathan, Desecrator and 2 Stalkers for how awesome it will look. I am just hoping it is stable on those tiny legs. I boxed my metal harrower for being a true nightmare in stability. Ordered the plastic kits.

[Admiral_Arzar]

As for the DJ, it's the best jack in the game I don't know what would be better than him, Behemoth is pretty cool I will admit but I find the DJ more useful. I own one and he is very useful even when he doesn't get into much of a ruckus. I find most players I play worry about him more than anything else on the table and actually submit resources to the destruction of the DJ cause which frees up a lot of things for me. I only use him in higher point games though.

Deathjack is good (better than the Behemoth due to focus efficiency IMO) but he definitely isn't as good as the Avatar of Menoth by any stretch of the imagination.

[Deo85]

I hate pDenny, distrust Bane Thrall UA, and hate owning Bane Thralls....Drudges are OP too...

:3

No DJ and you Drudges are OP man my brain is about to explode :P How can you Sanctjud NOT have a DJ?!

I disagree about the Avatar being better then a DJ. A fully loaded DJ will crush any model in its wake past maybe the collosols will be the first models to survive that rampage

[Adurot]

Deathjack is good (better than the Behemoth due to focus efficiency IMO) but he definitely isn't as good as the Avatar of Menoth by any stretch of the imagination.

Avatar vs Deathjack is about equal I'd say. Maybe give it to Avatar for being a point cheaper. What makes the Avatar good is all the Jack support Menoth can stack on top of the Avatar, far more than Cryx can on the Deathjack. Course by that point they're also paying fourteen/fifteen points for the thing.

I still love my Deathjack though. With Scavs fueling him he punched so much stuff to death to win me a 20pt Hardcore over the weekend.

[usbprime]

Deathjack is good (better than the Behemoth due to focus efficiency IMO) but he definitely isn't as good as the Avatar of Menoth by any stretch of the imagination.

Deathjack is better then avatar......avatar is cheaper therefore. The biggest thing with avatar that i dislike, and would argue that DJ is better, is the fact that he's not in the battlegroup, thus some of the awesome battlegroup spells, and effects, don't help him. Also, Avatar w/out a choir is meh........deathjack on his own is still really good. And i had a friend, who played menoth, who i don't think ever rolled more than a 2 on his D3 focus......so that never even put him over par with any regular jacks.

[Mathai]

POW19 reach and 21 armor....meh??

[Island]

Don't own the Deathjack, will probably buy drudges before I get him... The Kraken, however, is on my "get that sh*t right now"-list.

[Sanctjud]

At that cost and with the opportunity cost, yes, I would say "meh".
It's good, but appropriate I would Hazard, of course until the official rules are out, it's still mostly up in the air.

[BakerGaspy]

Deathjack is better then avatar......avatar is cheaper therefore. The biggest thing with avatar that i dislike, and would argue that DJ is better, is the fact that he's not in the battlegroup, thus some of the awesome battlegroup spells, and effects, don't help him. Also, Avatar w/out a choir is meh........deathjack on his own is still really good. And i had a friend, who played menoth, who i don't think ever rolled more than a 2 on his D3 focus......so that never even put him over par with any regular jacks.

D3+1 focus, so averaging 3 anyways which doesn't need to be assigned. Also I don't see how Avatar is meh without choir, same MAT as DJ higher pow on his sword and reach. thats not including his fun abilities, which IMO are icing on the cake. Lastly, the option for the choir is there, true adding points, but you don't just have one jack in Menoth so the choir's cost shouldn't be fully put on the Avatar's shoulders.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Don't own the Deathjack, will probably buy drudges before I get him.

OK, now we're getting ridiculous.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Deathjack is better then avatar......avatar is cheaper therefore. The biggest thing with avatar that i dislike, and would argue that DJ is better, is the fact that he's not in the battlegroup, thus some of the awesome battlegroup spells, and effects, don't help him. Also, Avatar w/out a choir is meh........deathjack on his own is still really good. And i had a friend, who played menoth, who i don't think ever rolled more than a 2 on his D3 focus......so that never even put him over par with any regular jacks.

Alright, let's do a comparison here, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Avatar has 34 boxes and 21 starting armor, eventually dropping to 19. Deathjack has 32 boxes and a flat 19 armor. They both have MAT 8 - DJ has 3 attacks but Avatar's are stronger, have magical weapon, and have reach. Having reach allows the Avatar to attack over walls, other models, and also out-threat the DJ. The Avatar is also immune to spells which protects it from debuffs, and can influence the flow of battle by forcing enemies to walk toward it with Gaze. The avatar gets an average of 3-focus a turn. This is "on par" with a regular 'jack except for one key point which you omitted: it doesn't cost your caster any focus. Even without choirbuffs the Avatar has MAT 8 and hits harder than any of our 'jacks. DJ has two upsides over Avatar: ability to cast spells and the ability to heal itself. These do not make up for spell immunity, superior overall combat ability, and the point differential. All of that was in a vacuum - the Avatar is FAR better in context due to being immune to shooting or having MAT 10 and P+S 21 at all times. Oops, I forgot the ability to walk away from attackers without provoking free strikes, or make random additional attacks.

Tl;DR: In a vacuum, it's close. DJ is more versatile and tricky (as befits Cryx) whereas Avatar has superior survivability and combat abilities. In context, it's not even close - DJ gets blown out of the water. IF Deathjack had reach, it might pull ahead in the "in a vacuum" comparison as it would actually have awesome threat range and would be harder to jam.

[Chouraku]

On average it's focus is on-par with normal warjack allocation, off average it isn't.
The Deathjack brings reliability, when you need that 4-5 focus allotment you will have it, the Avatar is prone to falling short when it matters most.

[Lamoron]

Not accounting for Battlegroup spells and Cryx debuffs is very narrow minded. I don't actually use the Deathjack and I've cut him up and used him for parts but...

- Deathjack with Stealth, Ghost Walk, SPD 8 (11.5" threat), and MAT 10. It can advance through models, obstructions, and takes no free strikes (The Coven hot swapping).

- Deathjack with Armor 21, Ghost Walk, and +2 threat with Telekinesis (potentially another +2 threat with TK on the target for a grand total of 13.5"). Arrives with MAT 10 and PS 20 due to debuffs (Scaverous)

- Deathjack with Overrun and Terminal Velocity threatening 17" inches, going around models, going through buildings and terrain, ignoring free strikes, and arriving with boosted attack rolls and rerolls on both attack and damage (Mortenebra).

I think you should stick to vacuum where my money is on the Avatar, because once he pokes his head out in the real world daddy DJ makes him look like a little girl with pillows strapped to his hands (DJ can reach what amounts to PS 27 with the right caster and setup).

[Gamingdevil]

@Lamoron: you're not accounting for DJ in a direct matchup vs Avatar, since the Avatar will not be able to get targeted by your spells (all but Coven in your example)

You're absolutely right though, these things shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum. I would rate the Avatar about on par with DJ, with the Avatar being slightly better just because he is cheaper.

But I don't think that's what this topic was about
OT: If his rules are anything but horrible, I will most likely get a Kraken as soon as I can.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Not accounting for Battlegroup spells and Cryx debuffs is very narrow minded. I don't actually use the Deathjack and I've cut him up and used him for parts but...

- Deathjack with Stealth, Ghost Walk, SPD 8 (11.5" threat), and MAT 10. It can advance through models, obstructions, and takes no free strikes (The Coven hot swapping).

- Deathjack with Armor 21, Ghost Walk, and +2 threat with Telekinesis (potentially another +2 threat with TK on the target for a grand total of 13.5"). Arrives with MAT 10 and PS 20 due to debuffs (Scaverous)

- Deathjack with Overrun and Terminal Velocity threatening 17" inches, going around models, going through buildings and terrain, ignoring free strikes, and arriving with boosted attack rolls and rerolls on both attack and damage (Mortenebra).

I think you should stick to vacuum where my money is on the Avatar, because once he pokes his head out in the real world daddy DJ makes him look like a little girl with pillows strapped to his hands (DJ can reach what amounts to PS 27 with the right caster and setup).

Those are buffs available on a few of our casters, whereas the typical Avatar buffs are on cheap solos and units that are run in every Menoth army (and happen to benefit other 'jacks). I didn't account for Eye of Menoth, that Harbinger spell that gives +2 speed, the Covenant's buffs etc. although maybe I should have. The only buff I would say is reasonably common for DJ to have is Dark Shroud, and even with that the Avatar still hits harder. Not to mention (as the above poster said) the Avatar itself is immune to all the debuffs and spells you listed aside of the aforementioned Dark Shroud. In the end, whichever 'jack gets the charge first is going to scrap the other, but the Avatar has the advantage here for one innate reason (reach/threat range) and one common buff (Enliven). Note that Enliven can be overcome with arm/head locks (headbutts are rarely an option) but DJ will not scrap the Avatar if you give up all your initials to perform a lock.

Anyways, I'm done. I have a ton of experience playing against Menoth and the Avatar in particular - others are free to come to their own conclusions.

[Der Tod]

@ Gentlemen ... can we focus on that "Kraken" again?? Or is it "oh yeah let's have this debate again"-time again?

I'm still not in love with the model ... those arms look kinda just attached after the thing was complete and I would have loved to see it moren Kraken-ish. I think they mentioned it in the video where they said something about getting inspiration from fleas as well and that looks much more like it. I'm just sad because as soon as I saw the artwork where that buddy is kinda covered by water and items in front of him and reading the name "Kraken" I was like "hell yeah, *****-time" ... now it looks weird and it's going to be a "hopefully you are OP as fox, then I'll buy you and make the friends I don't have cry"-decision rather than a style one (which I would prefer for absolution and stuff)

[Scotty]

I plan on buying the kraken reguardless of its abilitys, if it sucks then I'll just run it with pDenny or coven. As far as the DJ vs Avatar its the DJ's ability to cast most of the spells in your warcasters list that edges it out over the avatar, a self preditioning DJ is a terror to behold.

[ZombieWar]

wouldnt you be able to hit the avatar with the debuff from feast of worms?

[Barrynstein]

wouldnt you be able to hit the avatar with the debuff from feast of worms?

As long as the Avatar wasn't the target of the spell i.e. running up a sacrificial McTHrall and hitting it in the back with the spell instead of the avatar.

[Mathai]

I play both Cryx and Menoth, I love them both, and love both DJ and the Avatar. I have to say from my experiences that in full on battle, Deathjack is better by about one point ( Crazy, I know ) when teamed with the right 'Casters over Avatar with the right 'Casters.

Both get awesome from the right support, and have awesme abilities in their own right. (Gaze of Menoth + a fire wall or two is absolutely hilarious!) The edge goes to Deathjack though because while the Avatar gets as many awesome buffs and support like Defender's Ward, or the Choir in general, and a Vassal of Menoth making it impossible to land a second hit on it, Menoth's support comes from Warcasters, and units, and solos. Whereas the bulk of Cryxian shenanigans concerning DJ are a product of your Warcaster. Sure there are a few less than optimal 'Caster matchups for him, but I also see alot of those for Avatar as well. With fewer cogs to the Cryx war machine (Pun intended) there are fewer places to diminish the overall output. Whereas If Menoth loses a solo here, or a model there, its quite probable that their Avatar will suffer for it. And that is what makes him less potent in my opinion.


What is the theorized range on the Kraken's Narwhal cannon? I can't wait to see that thing in action. =)

[Sanctjud]

Cryx Caster
-Kraken
-Kraken
XY/35 points

Who's in?

[Lamoron]

others are free to come to their own conclusions.

I thought we were arguing which of them was better in general, not in a DJ vs. Avatar punching contest with backup... but in that case... I see your post and raise you a Pistol Wraith. The Avatar will not be participating in the game, thank you for coming

To the topic machine, power up generators! My wife is buying me a Kraken for our one year anniversary so I know I'll be getting one and it makes me very excited about the actual rules. Has there been any new information regarding the front arcs and if they're split up like the Battle Engines (and how this effects the Thresher power attack?).

[Sheer_Falacy]

I thought we were arguing which of them was better in general, not in a DJ vs. Avatar punching contest with backup... but in that case... I see your post and raise you a Pistol Wraith. The Avatar will not be participating in the game, thank you for coming

To the topic machine, power up generators! My wife is buying me a Kraken for our one year anniversary so I know I'll be getting one and it makes me very excited about the actual rules. Has there been any new information regarding the front arcs and if they're split up like the Battle Engines (and how this effects the Thresher power attack?).

They apparently do have front arcs set up like battle engines, and the power attack only hits one or the arcs. Which isn't so bad, really.

[Gamingdevil]

What is the theorized range on the Kraken's Narwhal cannon? I can't wait to see that thing in action. =)

16"

For the "Thresher" power attack: I'm quite sure they do have arcs, but the text in NQ seems to imply it hits the entire front arc, it does mention that it "threshers" at 2", so no 4" destruction for the Kraken.

Guess we'll see in the actual rules.

[Lamoron]

no 4" destruction for the Kraken.

Shucks... I was looking forward to clearing an entire 8" zone with Thresher, Quick Work, and Ravager

[LordRavurion]

Maybe thresher and then start the berserk chain on models outside the 2 inch. Should still be fun, just a little toned down (probably justified given the impact)

[Lamoron]

Maybe thresher and then start the berserk chain on models outside the 2 inch. Should still be fun, just a little toned down (probably justified given the impact)

Well it is a 19 point model so it sort of has to do something well, but as you say it can still work.

[usbprime]

Cryx Caster
-Kraken
-Kraken
XY/35 points

Who's in?

Lol.......wicked......must try. I was thinking

Mortenebra
-Kraken
-Kraken
-Stalker
-Stalker
-Stalker
-Stalker

At 50 points, probably a terribad list......but would look hilarious coming across the board. The Witch Coven with a similiar list would be great.....spd7 krakens, yes please!

[PG_Dmark]

Cryx Caster
-Kraken
-Kraken
XY/35 points

Who's in?

pSkarre
Kraken
Kraken
Min McThralls and a Brute Thrall

I am so going to run this. Just to piss off my most regular Cygnar opponent who always fields two of the disco globes against me.

[Deo85]

It was said in a different thread that all of the Colloses have a thresher attack but its in one of the 90 degree front arcs and uses the STR stat not the weapons POW sadly so maybe a POW 12 thresher? Kind of week if you ask me sense it has giant 4" reach why can't we get a 4" thresher attack? does the thing coil back before it does the strike?

[Rhin0]

Well the Kraken has been out for a while now.

How have people been finding it ? It got a pretty bad wrap around its release. a lot of haters, including myself, just wrote it off.

I've finally got around to play testing it recently. Can't really report much, need to play some more games.

One thing I did find, that i thought was neat was Kill shot. Easpically with eDenny. (OR pSkarre would have the same effect)
On feat turn, the Krak's can charge into melee, and rip apart some infantry at an effective MAT 9, and get all corpsed up.
Then, on it third corpse activate Kill shot, with a POW 17(10) gun, as I was reading, the Kill shot is a "can" so, from what i can see, you can wait to use it until your up to 3 corpses.

As i was saying, seems to work better with people like eDenny's feat / pSkarres Guidance, just so you have a good chance of hitting that third guy.

I had a game agasint Menoth with the kraken, and i found out how resilient it can be agasint Charging weapon masters.
I had 5 Bastions plow straight into it, and only just managed to half kill it. as they were striking at dice -7.


Does anyone else have anything to report on the Kraken front ?

[Big_D]

thing is sick is a eshade teir list. Played it a at 50 points, tier 3 over the weekend. List was:

Eshade
Scarlock
Kraken
Max Bane Thralls with UA x 2
BLT
WSC
Pistol Wraith
Necrotech
6 scrappies

Unicorn cannon + phantom hunter is just sick. 2 focus, Phantom Hunter and Puppet strings gives your opponent fits, assuming you don't catch him unawares and camping nothing on Turn 2. Even then, just the threat tends to have your opponent second guessing his caster placement all the time. He knows he has to deal with the Kraken, but there are all these tough, recycling banes to deal with.

Out Kayallesa'd Kayallesa - put 12 damage on her with a boosted kill shot, followed it the turn later with another simply because she had nowhere to hide. Did for Damiano the same way, forcing his shield guard jack to take the unicorn hit, then chipped away with the POW 12's. Walked up to a Khador caster hiding behind two Devastators and reach punched him to death (remember, Phantom Hunter works for melee attacks too)

Loving it so far, can't wait to try it with some other casters, but probably only in lists that are 43 pnts or above. (Although I did work out a way to get Kraken + DJ in a T4 Morty list at 35)

[nonchalance]

(Although I did work out a way to get Kraken + DJ in a T4 Morty list at 35)

Kraken 19, DJ 11, 2 Sirens 4 - that's 34 points. How are you getting three more heavies for 6 points?

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

thing is sick is a eshade teir list. Played it a at 50 points, tier 3 over the weekend.

I skipped the tier list because I didn't have the scrap thralls for it, but eGorshade won me a tournament this weekend.

This was my list and it took a beating, but kept on grinding:

eGore
Scarlock
Kraken
BLT
Gorman
Saxon
Pistol Wraith
Full Banes+UA
Min Banes
Full Mechst

I think I'm missing something, but that's the gist. The threat of the ranged assassination kept a lot of stuff in check, and with the scarlock providing most of the spells, eGore was able to camp a good deal of focus most of the time. Combine that with Arcane Consumption and he was never in much danger.

The Kraken got one assassination and eGore got another by himself. A fully camped eGore is a pretty nasty adversary one-on-one.

[Sanctjud]

Random note on eShade:
Remember, Arcane Consumption is similar to Psychic Vampire, but not the same.
So eShade (if occultation is not on him) CAN be dragged by Mittens BEFORE they kill themselves; with Psychic Vampire, the opposite.

I was on the receiving end of the above T.T

Thank god the Phoenix is pillow fisted

[Adurot]

The Kraken is on my Xmas list this year. The Epic Bastard is definitely one I want to run it with for reasons mentioned. Hell, I think Phantom Hunter would even be sweet for the 4" Reach or Charging thru Forests with its Pathfinder. Related note, I've stopped playing eBastard's Theme Force because I find I like Blood Witches way too much. Oh, you killed the Blood Hag? :op feat:: She's back now.

I also want to try it out with 3Lich. Mobility, Carnage, Scything Touch. They all seem like nice spells on it.

[PG_Malebolgia]

Used the Kraken with Skarre and loved it. My list:

Skarre
-Kraken
-Deathripper
-Skarlock
10 Bane Knights
10 Blackbane's Ghost Raiders
6 Blood Witches+UA
Pistol Wraith
Necrotech & 1 Scrap Thrall
Ragman

The list performed really well. I kept the Kraken back at first and used it as a mobile gun platform. Worked well. I used Skarre's feat to shove the infantry down my opponent's throat and kill three Titans (Bronzeback, Tiberion and Gladiator; Xerxis list with a lot of heavy stuff) and grind him away. Kept the Kraken back for later in the game and it worked well. Once I sent it out into melee, my opponent didn't have the resources left to take it down. Colossals just have a lot of HP and ARM...you need to allocate enough resources to destroy them. Once you make sure your opponent doesn't have those resources or if they are occupied with other stuff, you have a field day.

[Rhin0]

Played Kraken with Ragman last night.

I can't express how good this really is...

Also, I'd recommend having just one necrotech in a force, its only 1pt.
If someone fails to kill your Kraken, having a Necro can ensure (well, 8 test) that you can spend focus, and kill whatever tried and failed to kill you.

[Sanctjud]

Is the Kraken worth the price tag for those that are not financially stable? T.T

[sepher32]

So I tried the Kraken with some Black Spot action....

4" reach is pretty damn good. He's a boss with Skarre2 apart from a little skornergy between collector and black spot.