Unorganized religion

[Sosthenes]

So, while listening to "Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves", a rambling thought came into my mind: What preaching is going on outside the big churches?

Now the theology of Immoren is one of my favorite things about it, as its a bit more unified than your usual pantheistic-til-you-drop fantasy world. And we do have some very good information about the religious mainstream. But I'm wondering what goes on outside of that.

Generally I'd wager to imply that big two religions are quite Abrahamic in its organization, so cherry-picking some historical movements and facts always is a good starting point. The big item is is that we're basically pre-Reformation, i.e. not very splintered. Sure, there's the Old Faith vs. the Protectorate, but that's basically Eastern vs. Roman Church, with a bit of Jews migrating to Israel mixed in. So as "modern" as the rest of the setting is, there seems to be no obvious equivalent of Puritans, revivals, etc.

So we might be better off with more medieval structures, i.e. monasteries, pilgrimages etc.
I do guess that we'll have less traveling religious students, as the University education seems a bit more secular (a lot of poetry and music arose out of those vagabonds). Still, monasteries aren't as frequent. As much as silent contemplation fits with Morrowan ideal, there's simply not as much funding available ? aristocrats tended to found monasteries left and right, as they basically served as prayer factories to speed your travel through purgatory.

Still, the Ascendants allow lots of "attack surface", where a considerable amount of sectarianism can happen, some of which will move outside of normal church territory. Especially now, where the church just can't pay that much attention anymore.

And there's bound to be lots of small groups that orbit around the Old Faith and weren't swallowed by the Protectorate. Menite or Menite-ish sects, maybe mixing with lots of old tribal lore. Maybe even a few Kardh and Morrdh throwbacks/influences.

There's not a singular locus like Martin Luther, but I would say that the recent wars will cause quite a lot of friction, which will set some fires to the established church structures. The Menite/Morrowan lay preacher in Ternon Crag won't be alone in his "heresy". I don't even want to know what the rise of the Skorne will do to Western Immorens theological landscape?

I do intend to follow up on that germ of an idea a bit. Quite often the religious themes are too easily turned into simplistic cliches by players - Morrow's church being a somewhat do-goody background resource, the Protectorate being more about totalitarianism than religion. A few more "splitters", lay preachers, traveling mountebanks mixing alchemy with religious ideals etc. - bringing a bit more 30's years war in the often too technocratic conflict.

[Psychomancer]

From the IKCG, pps. 212-213

The Church of Morrow, though unified, lays much emphasis on choice and interpretation. Three major paths, each representing a broad interpretation of Morrowan Doctrine, exist within the Morrowan faith- The orthodox Morrowans, the Justices, and the Righteous.

The orthodox Morrowan faith is comprised of the majority of Morrowans, while the Justices are those who uphold and enforce Church law, arbitrate disputes, punish lawbreakers, and supervise paladins and monks of the Church.

The Righteous is a smaller, liberal group. Members of the Righteous frequently serve as messengers and emissaries, preferring to serve in a variety of roles for short periods of time. Travel is important to the Righteous, and they enjoy pilgrimages.

In addition to these paths within the Morrowan faith, several sects have arisen, espousing more focused viewpoints. These minority faiths are recognized as a part of the Church, and embraced by the Exordeum.

All emphases are mine.

It seems as though your description of the faith is decently correct. The only 'unauthorized' version of Morrowan faith I can find any mention of is the Llaelese "Divinist" sect, which places the Ascendants as being gods themselves, albeit weaker than Morrow. It seems Morrowans are, by and large, and flying in the face of every religion in the history of everywhere, encouraged to "think for themselves" to determine right and wrong, and constantly push to do better today than they did yesterday. Novel frakking concept. But then again, the Morrowans have rather empirical proof that their god is real and not just a legend, so they need to spend less time encouraging people to believe in a distant and staggeringly powerful being.

Seems to me that if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of Immorese theology and true divergences of faith and doctrine, there's really only one place to look- the followers of Thamar, and her Septs.

[Sosthenes]

Actually, the Morrowan concept allows for an extremely wide array of sects and ways to worship, even without involving Thamar at all. Of course, the Morrow-Thamar and the Menoth-Twin axis only further complicates things.

And "Thinking for yourself" is a) definitely not something new for religions and b) certainly not as free as one might think. There's plenty of esoteric practices and religions themselves where introspection and self-perfection (coming nearer to god or some other ideal) is central. Some sects of Buddhism come to mind, or Sufism. Thomas Aquinas might make you feel right at home, too.

There are a few major loopholes in the self-perfection doctrine, too. For one, you only get one try, and will most likely "fail". No cycle of rebirth for you. Also, the whole Ascendant deal seems like a sponsored shortcut, where otherwise imperfect martyrs can be lifted up at the last moment, without being able to seal the deal all by themselves -- and to be fair, that's one of the main selling point, considering that we have a Morrowan *church* and not a self-help group.

I've always considered the whole deal to be a bit of a Ponzi scheme of souls…

So, a lot of room for sects to position themselves in, especially given that your holy writs are glorified travelogues (Where are the candid beach illuminations of Thamar, Privateer Press, where?!?), as opposed to Old Testament/Menite commandments and strictures.

Some quick ideas:
- The "Why-Even-Try-Ists". You won't ascend, so why bother, be a nice person in your community, sing some hymns, hope for a good place at Morrow's table in Urcaen. The Anglican church of Immoren.
- The "Search and Replace: Menoth - Dhunia" sect: Assume a Devourer/Dhunia principle, relegate Menoth to more of a first-on-the-scene/big brother role and then position the Twins in that world view. Combines a circle of rebirth with ascension. Probably a more esoteric, scholastic sect. Flavor with some kick-butt monks.
- The "Dan-Brown-ists": You see, Morrow and Thamar were the first to succeed, they got their circle of brown-nosers to follow. Good for them. But this is just shrouding that the key to Ascension is already in Menite writings. Something *they* don't want you to know.
- The "Barney-ists": A happy divine family with Menoth as the father, the twins as his children. Both the whole "evil Thamar" and the "try to ascend on your own" are basically just some misguided interpretations.
- The "Legalists" aka. the "Divine Rules Lawyers": You heard it here first, Menoth is just an Infernal. And he made a huuuuuge contract with humanity, everyone following his writings is basically signing it, accepting divine magic is going into debt. The Twins discovered that and basically made a petition of souls to get out of that -- good for them, but a lose-lose for you. Further divided in the group who try to repeat that, i.e. get a few souls of your own (charismatic cult leaders) and those who want to break out of this deal by some rather lunatic means.
- The "OCDists": Thamar isn't doing evil for evil's sake. By being inhumane, you break your human bounds, thus making it easier to transcend your mortal shell and ascend in the end. Of course, this still doesn't make it very nice. But Morrow is basically the opposite, not inherently concerned about being good, but about being way too ordered/organized to be considered human. Followers of this sect try to adhere to a very, very strictly scheduled way of life observing minute rituals, never deviating. Wizards and accountants should enjoy that. A bit of Kabbalah, a bit of monastic life. Some overlap with Cyrissists, who got the basic gist right, but are just way too big techno-weenie nerds.
- The "Better Living Through Alchemy-ists": More readily accesible and common than both mechanika and wizardry (and maybe not restricted to the practitioner itself), alchemy looks like a good deal towards perfection. One part Taoism with its Immortality Elixirs, one part snake oil salesmen traveling the lands, selling ascension.
- The "Ebony-and-Ivory-ists": The fact that the Twins were, duh, twins and male and female is the key to their ascension, both their achievements on their own wouldn't helped a lot. Something something male and female principle something something. So let's get back together. If a community of cultists who do a lot of orgies and similar things sound exciting to you, remember that most of them will probably look, behave and smell like your average Phish fans.

(Note: I emphasized the humor, but major religions have been founded on even sillier concepts)

[Munindk]

Another sect could worship both Morrow and Thamar in a ying/yang way, with Morrow representing the good in mankind and Thamar the evil. The followers dont pick a side, instead they try to keep the world balanced by doing evil deeds to restore the imbalance left by good deeds and vice versa. This sect would be seen as do-gooders in Five Fingers, but evil through and through in Caspia. They differ from regular morrowans or thamarites in two ways, they're not trying to ascend and they dont side with one god in all matters, they pick the appropriate one for each situation.

[Sosthenes]

"All I know is my gut says maybe."

I see two problems with a neutral Morrowite sect. First, Morrow and Thamar aren't universal forces, they're upstart humans who came much after this and haven't "usurped" those principles either. That would be more in line with Menoth-Devourer (order/chaos) or Dhunia/Devourer (life/death). Second problem -- and the main problem with active D&D "True Neutral" philosophy -- who keeps the tally? Whether the world or a region is tending towards good or evil is often highly subjective, never mind that finding the appropriate countermeasures are often difficult, even with a highly involved lex talionis. Wedding in Barber Street -> kick three random passersby in the nads?

Not saying that this is impossible (it's religion, after all), but in my camapign, I'd make that a sect of weird cultists, possibly with an inner circle of charismatic leaders/oracles who determine the state of the world. As opposed to serene, wise, white-bearded monks contemplating the universe and giving pupils insectile nicknames.

Or just a bunch of Calvinist Stasi Accountants who have their secret lodge in a city and keep a tallying board of all the community members, spying on their every action to see whether they have to make a mark in the Morrow or Thamar column.

[Psychomancer]

I've always considered the whole deal to be a bit of a Ponzi scheme of souls…

*POOF* Chauncey the Infernal suddenly appears!

"Do go on..."

[Psychomancer]

And "Thinking for yourself" is a) definitely not something new for religions and b) certainly not as free as one might think. There's plenty of esoteric practices and religions themselves where introspection and self-perfection (coming nearer to god or some other ideal) is central. Some sects of Buddhism come to mind, or Sufism. Thomas Aquinas might make you feel right at home, too.

Didn't say "new." I said "novel." As in "unlikely." Add sarcasm to taste. And I'm not going to chance an IRL Religions discussion on an RPG board. Suffice to say I am glad Thomas Aquinas was able to use real science to create eyeglasses, because I'm blind without 'em.

There are a few major loopholes in the self-perfection doctrine, too. For one, you only get one try, and will most likely "fail". No cycle of rebirth for you. Also, the whole Ascendant deal seems like a sponsored shortcut, where otherwise imperfect martyrs can be lifted up at the last moment, without being able to seal the deal all by themselves -- and to be fair, that's one of the main selling point, considering that we have a Morrowan *church* and not a self-help group.

But failure in mortal life does not constitute failure in the long run. Ascendants (and scions) are special because their deeds and adherence to a specific path of principles allow them to leave Caen and be taken directly to the home of their deity in Urcaen, having caused a serious shift in the world they leave and in the world they enter. Most average souls find themselves in the wastes of Urcaen (Devourer/Oberous territory) and must find their way to the city of their god (or get busy wreaking some crap.) The more adherent to the path, the closer to the city of your god you spawn. Even someone who was a very lax Morrowan in life may find redemption in the afterlife if they evade the beasts of Urcaen, avoid any Scions or other malignant beings, and make their way to Morrow's castle- having grown significantly in the process.
The War of Souls is a very pressing matter in Urcaen, and all of the gods seek to bring as many adherents to their sides as possible. In this cosmology, death is not necessarily an end, so much as a beginning. Details remain sketchy at best.
Some other things to think on- as far as I know, no Primarch of the church of Morrow has ever Ascended. Primarchs are escorted from Caen by Archons, and it is believed that they join their guardians after they meet Morrow. Ascension may be a grand thing, but it does not seem to be the only path to security and redemption in the cosmolgy.

I've always considered the whole deal to be a bit of a Ponzi scheme of souls?

Chauncey the Infernal smiles and offers you some tea and cake.

I mean, you're right- there is a lot of room for interpretation in the Religion of the Twins, and both of them claim to represent freedom of choice. But seeing as the first thing on Thamar's "To Do" list is "infiltrate and subvert the Church of Morrow," I'd say that anyplace you find anything really divergent from orthodox Morrowan principles, you're going to find Thamar.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing, really.

[StJason]

It's not like a Ponzi Scheme of souls. It IS one.
The whole reason for gods to create mortals is to make a self-perpetuating soul source.

This isn't quite parasitic, as being marked for a servant of a higher power lets you go straight to their domain. If not, then you are stuck in the wilds outside, which I always imagined to be something like a sea full of fish. Hungry fish. Some are natural creatures of Urcaen, and while vicious, not particularly smart/dangerous. Above them are the various minor Infernals. Bigger Infernals and those of the various Orders (of which the Nonokion is the best known) are beyond that. Finally the Infernal Lords. Above those are the Gods themselves.

...least to say, it's not a safe place for a mortal soul.

The loss in souls is why Menoth is so ticked at the Twins. If the Twins were born to the Elves or Goblins or whatever, then He'd likely never care. But with His 'income' suddenly slashed (and then grown to surpass his own), yeah, no wonder he's a bit anti-Twins.

Some people overempahsise the 'evil' of Tharmar. I always felt that it was less about dressing in black robes and cackling madly, and more about attaining your goals without reservations. Menoth self-limits Himself. Tharmar discards anything between Herself and Her goals.

As there are Ascendants, and it was done before, it is possible that a third member of the Pantheon could arise. How that would work (and avoid the domains of the already Ascended) is a good question.

[Sosthenes]

Yes, being secure in your gods domain by itself is pretty grand. Like I said, there are probably sects who are content with this fact alone, even for Morrowans. But unless there's post-mortal ascension/promotion, your chances at the advertised deal are pretty slim. "Oh, you didn't become a god yourself? Pure you, here's a job as a divine bucket cleaner" (And if post-mortal deals are available and actually *good*, then this poses a huge theological conundrum)

It's definitely a weird enough concept for more than the mainstream Morrowan interpretation of it. The Divinist question is part of it, but even that would allow several branches of thought what you'd actually do with that knowledge.

And yeah, I avoided Thamarite sects this far, as I'm mostly looking for something for normal lay persons, and a "non-evil" commoner-based Thamar church wouldn't have a big chance of survival right now (as would Menite splinter groups in the Protectorate).

[The Happy Anarchist]

This isn't quite parasitic, as being marked for a servant of a higher power lets you go straight to their domain. If not, then you are stuck in the wilds outside, which I always imagined to be something like a sea full of fish. Hungry fish. Some are natural creatures of Urcaen, and while vicious, not particularly smart/dangerous. Above them are the various minor Infernals. Bigger Infernals and those of the various Orders (of which the Nonokion is the best known) are beyond that. Finally the Infernal Lords. Above those are the Gods themselves.

The Infernals are not of Urcaen, or Caen. They come from somewhere else and are completely outside the arena of the Gods. The dangers of the wilds seem to be mostly from the beasts that follow/are created by/are part of the Devourer.

[Sosthenes]

Yeah, that's what Menoth would like you to believe. It's not like the gods would gain anything from an antagonistic environment

Speaking of which, this would make a great background for a militia/apocalytic nut type of sect: Urcaen survivalists, training to survive amongst the beasts. Either some group that's actually good, or foppish noblemen hunters with delusions of grandeur.

[Lachlan the Mad]

But what about Cyriss? Lachlan wants to worship Cyriss plz.

[Sosthenes]

Join that line over there. I know, it says "Scrutator Questioning Chambers", but ignore that, we didn't have time to update the signage.

[Lachlan the Mad]

Lack of clear labelling? But that is sinful! It could cause confusion!