Factions ranked for SR2012

[paradox]

It could have to do with a lack of Cryx in their meta.... but I doubt it. Sometimes I miss playing Cryx

Lol whut?
You know Garrin was a Cryx player, and RIW does not lack for Cryx!

[jonconcarne]

Lol whut?
You know Garrin was a Cryx player, and RIW does not lack for Cryx!

I don't actually know their meta by heart . But yah, I figured it didn't actually lack for Cryx. Just being silly.

[PG_Stevo]

Looking at SR results rankings leaves out a couple of pretty important variables, such as player skill. Not all players participating in tournaments are of equal skill level, which skews the results of this sort of analysis.

This does not make any sense. I don't necessarily disagree that SR rankings aren't the best metric, but the logic behind this sentence seems flawed to me. EVERY faction has players of wildly different degrees of skill. Having judged tournaments at GenCon and having participated in tournaments I can tell you that the population isn't all super competitive players.

Regardless, without access to every single player, their factions, and their win/loss records, any attempt to classify or stratify or qualify any faction as superior to another is simply conjecture. It doesn't matter if Circle has a lot of ways to take care of Infantry. Those options won't necessarily be in every Circle list. I'm citing Circle as an example here, but it holds true for each faction.

By and large this sentiment boils down to one thing: The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

[tensteam]

You also have to understand faction and warlock / warcaster matchups is another huge part of the game. Good Cryx players might dominate and then run into phaley, saeryn might somehow run into an elylyth or another similar gunline.

That is also one part of faction power. Strong factions (with strong casters) can build more balanced lists that have more good and less bad matchups while others are not as versatile. If you can build a list against particular opponent almost any faction can do well, but that naturally isn't the case normally. It is just easier to cover all (or most of) your bases with the stronger factions. And again I'm not talking about huge differences, but these do exist.

[Rochr]

Minions in tier4? Huh?

I must suck compared to you guys since I always have problems with both Maelok and Barnabas.

[Digestive]

True, though the only thing that can be said is there is only one feasible way to balance things for competitive play and that is in the highest skill levels.

This is not quite right: Even below the highest skill levels competitive play does exist. In any sport there are different leagues etc. Also from a company's viewpoint, it is not really adviceable to balance a game for only say 0.5% of its customer base. Blizzard (and other MMO Companies) made this mistake and are heavily rowing in a different direction.

If you balance things for the average joe (chips and pretzels players) then things can be easily manipulated and controlled by those who simply don't know when to slow down (or simply have too much fun flooring it).

I'm not balancing anything, not even trying to. What I suggested was simply to think about different 'Faction rankings' for different skill levels. E.G.: I think that Cryx as a faction is more powerful (relatively) in a lesser skill bracket than they are among the best player in the world. The discussion could be about ranks and/or distance between ranks.

Also it is probably quite imprecise to just build a rank-ladder for wm/h in general. Since (I guess) to most players it is more interesting how the rank ladder is according to their faction. And if there are faction-specific rankings, how do they translate into a general ranking.

[Trygle]

See the problem with ranking things is that they need to be done well and as non-subjectively as possible.

I honestly don't think Cryx is the easiest faction to play in lower skill levels, that award goes to Khador. Though because I have no data to back it up... it's worth jack all. It's painted by my own personal experiences and the playstyles of the Khadoran players I have had the pleasure to play with. It's a micro-meta no where near representing the larger pattern.

In order to accurately represent any sort of information you need a grander scale and data like that is not easy to come by.

[tehhelios]

I wouldnt belive a slow faction with poor rat and no arc nodes would be the easy play faction.

Id pick : retribution, legion or cryx.
Buy ranged troops, use feat, shoot, they dont even have to consider cover or stealth for most parts.

Move arc node with superhigh movement and ghostly in range of caster enemy caster, cast 2 spells win.

[absent]

Ret is not easy to play, ret maybe doesn't often have to worry about cover (that is false anyway) and legion maybe doesn't have to worry about stealth, but the other in both cases is a huge problem. Ret hates stealth, legion hates cover.

Also your cryx caster kill method only works against someone that doesn't know how to hold 2-3 focus or 1 fury.

Maybe play more?

[Trygle]

I wouldn't believe a slow faction with poor rat and no arc nodes would be the easy play faction.

Here is the problem with your mode of thinking. You are assuming that Khadorans take non character jacks and that the Cryxian will be taking Scaverous or some other spell nuke caster. If the tables are set like that then I can assume the Cryx caster is just gonna have a field day.

I can count on one hand the times I have seen the juggernaut/devastator played outside of a tierlist or battlebox game.

The standard loadout for Khadorans is standard for a reason. It is both effective and easy to play because it challenges the opponent to deal with things outside the norm for other factions. In a mano-a-mano battle, the tables are tilted to the Khadorans side and it is up to the opposing player to figure out how to tilt it the other way. The first few games are beat-em ups with infantry and jacks. Guess who is likely to win in the first few games?

This is why I said what I said, and this is how I back it up. It's colored by own personal experiences, you have obviously play/played a very different kind of Khador and have played against a very different kind of Cryx. This is why this data will be nearly impossible to analyze.

[tehhelios]

Ret is not easy to play, ret maybe doesn't often have to worry about cover (that is false anyway) and legion maybe doesn't have to worry about stealth, but the other in both cases is a huge problem. Ret hates stealth, legion hates cover.

Also your cryx caster kill method only works against someone that doesn't know how to hold 2-3 focus or 1 fury.

Maybe play more?

You heard of Ravyn with mage hunter strike force?
you heard of eLylyth with ravagores?.

There is a reason there is something called "snipe feat go" when people talk about ret.

My point stil stands, there is nothing in khador so easy to play like point and click roll dice armies with forces that have good rat, feat that support it and that ignore most defensive mechanics in the game aswell.

Im not saying i loose, im saying that i have to work harder to win, than i would playing with those armies.
Im not saying khador is worse, its a good army, but its not as easy to play.

I play khador because i like the models.

As for cryx, i sure wouldnt mind those bonejacks in my force. Its something that i have to worry about and cryx do not.

Ps. I include a juggernaut in roughly 60% of my games, real good jack Ds.

[absent]

Um i play ravyn, and my nemesis at ret has to, by rule, be elylth, so yeah, i know that stealth hoses ravyn, and cover hoses elylth. Thanks though.

[elplagUe]

Um i play ravyn, and my nemesis at ret has to, by rule, be elylth, so yeah, i know that stealth hoses ravyn, and cover hoses elylth. Thanks though.

Not true when the mandatory Bolt Thrower gets a crit slam and you're no longer benefitting from Cover. At least Ravyn's issue is build dependant, whereas eLylyth's are dependant solely (after the naga) on terrain. That argument holds no water.

[absent]

I don't think you need a crit slam to open them up from cover, as the push would be enough, but your assessment and tehwhatever's are really bad. Yeah all you need is a 14 to ignore rules... Ok a lot of things work well if you roll 14's all the time.

[elplagUe]

I don't think you need a crit slam to open them up from cover, as the push would be enough, but your assessment and tehwhatever's are really bad. Yeah all you need is a 14 to ignore rules... Ok a lot of things work well if you roll 14's all the time.

Sure, push works just as well, but that doesn't negate the ease with which eLylyth will play once the Naga is out. Sure she had issues with You-Can't-Shoot-Us Menoth Jack lines before, but not anymore. And before anyone says it, I find it highly suspect that most legion players are trying to say they won't use the thing.

My reasoning for putting Legion on top of the list has nothing to do with ease of play, although I think as a faction they do have a shorter bell curve then others because of the rules they tend to ignore. Second to that is the fact that, unlike Cryx, they bring an extremely dominant ranged game, a rock solid alpha, a set of extremely tough melee capabilities, and spell assassination. Cryx brings melee and spell, but only has one caster that can bring ranged, while apart from very select casters any Legion list including two ravagors can assassinate almost any caster in the game, despite build. In SR2012, almost every other faction got hit in some manner, be it Cryx/Khador in character restrictions, generally having to play casters forward, etc, and being backed by the fury mechanic, I don't see how anything is a hinderance to Legion.

[absent]

I'm not talking which faction is the highest tier in tournaments or some such, i know that is the point of the thread, i'm saying only that " just shoot them with ret or legion and win, or arc some spells at them with cryx, and win" is utterly preposterous.

[elplagUe]

I'm not talking which faction is the highest tier in tournaments or some such, i know that is the point of the thread, i'm saying only that " just shoot them with ret or legion and win, or arc some spells at them with cryx, and win" is utterly preposterous.

In some instances, yes, but Legion, if not Ret, can and does do well shooting and winning, without any thought or skill involved. It's simply advance ravagor, shoot through trees and stealth, boost, boost, repeat. If it's eLyl, do it twofold. I don't think you can debate that point when you yourself claimed the push is normally enough to negate the cover, and against the Legion I've played, they normally have 2-4 chances with eLyl on feat turn for the bolt thrower to do just that, and then it's all over.

I watched a game of pMorg vrs. eLyl. Was over on turn 1. The guy playing pMorg stated "Good job, you know how to roll dice."

That's how I would have felt, considering morg was behind a wall and the 2nd bolt thrower shot pushed him far enough to not get cover, and then ravagors killed him off.

[absent]

So a lucky win is somehow indicative of game balance, that is a strange premise. Lucky wins are just the opposite in my mind, if that is not a consistantly repeatable event it will not get someone the 5-6 wins they need to be champion of a large event.

ret does fine shooting for the win, but to say it's just plop the mini's down, kill their caster, shake hand, this is warmachine if that is how your games are going you are probably terrible.

[elplagUe]

So a lucky win is somehow indicative of game balance, that is a strange premise. Lucky wins are just the opposite in my mind, if that is not a consistantly repeatable event it will not get someone the 5-6 wins they need to be champion of a large event.

ret does fine shooting for the win, but to say it's just plop the mini's down, kill their caster, shake hand, this is warmachine if that is how your games are going you are probably terrible.

And that's a very shallow and immature way of looking at it. When it comes to eLylyth and legion in particular, alot of the games I've watched have seemed to be exactly that, when eLyl is involved. The only real skill involved being activating in the right order to clear any intervening troops - beyond that, no defense will work, except camping tons of focus, or target saturation ala Terminus.

That, or the feat turn simply decimates the enemy army, at which point what does it matter? You've already won.

[absent]

, no defense will work, except camping tons of focus,

.

No defense will work, except the one that works. Ok i'm tired of this thread not sure why i posted in it, it's premise is one that invites arguement, i knew that already.

[Neutralyze]

I play legion because I shoot stuff.

[CrazyMadHatter]

Once again, it seems that this debate about balance is so strong because the system itself actually is balanced.

I have heard that Comp scores were being looked into on some places to balance tournaments, not in Texas but a few of thee other states. Rumor only but I really hope that is not true. I few guys dictating what is good and what is not is just balls. It happened in Warhammer Fantasy (and I think 40k) in some places and it just turned into massive complaints and bias which lead to non-competitive tournaments. I am just ranting now because PP update their SR rules enough to stop interlopers putting in annoying rules.

Anyway. To get me and the thread back on course. There seems to be nothing that is massively broken in the game, nor any army that does not stand a good chance of winning big... do you think this is true?

[ScottEBJJ]

And that's a very shallow and immature way of looking at it. When it comes to eLylyth and legion in particular, alot of the games I've watched have seemed to be exactly that, when eLyl is involved. The only real skill involved being activating in the right order to clear any intervening troops - beyond that, no defense will work, except camping tons of focus, or target saturation ala Terminus.

That, or the feat turn simply decimates the enemy army, at which point what does it matter? You've already won.

And if it was any where near as easy as you are trying to imply why is Legion just not out-right dominating across the board? If their faction was that point and click easy they would be far outstripping every other faction. They aren't. So either you are heavily exaggerating or ever Legion player, but one, is just retarded.

[morglum5780]

And if it was any where near as easy as you are trying to imply why is Legion just not out-right dominating across the board? If their faction was that point and click easy they would be far outstripping every other faction. They aren't. So either you are heavily exaggerating or ever Legion player, but one, is just retarded.

Legion is a top tier army. In every list that is ever posted. I dont have any friends who think they ARENT top tier. They are an assassination army in a game that is built around assassination. And like it or not, not all armies are equal.

[sourclams]

And that's a very shallow and immature way of looking at it. When it comes to eLylyth and legion in particular, alot of the games I've watched have seemed to be exactly that, when eLyl is involved. The only real skill involved being activating in the right order to clear any intervening troops - beyond that, no defense will work, except camping tons of focus, or target saturation ala Terminus.

This seems to be the shallow and immature analysis. 'The only skill involved is rolling dice, and not running into Terminus'.

Or Karchev. Or Butcher. Or Menoth, eMakeda, eMadrak, pMadrak, Doomy, any other Troll list with a Pyre or Slag Troll or KSB UA, Strakhov, Venethrax, eGaspy, eSkarre, and I'm sure quite a few others pose harder matchups than facerolling Ret.

And yes, the Naga Nightlurker will change things when it comes out, but Colossals are going to change them right back when those come out. What does eLylith's massive amount of POW12-15s do against 'native' ARM20 models with 60 boxes that are often going to be camping +2 ARM buffs? If all of your fury is burned on spamming Nightlurker animi and your feat is burned killing 1/2 of a huge based model, then what facerolling dice tactics are required to roflstomp your way to victory?