Dealing with the Khador brick

[Marzuki]

Just fought against a Khador Karchev brick that was nasty. Errants, Crusader, and Reckoner did the best that they could but I just couldn't output enough damage against the first couple of heavies, and the Destroyer hadn't even engaged melee yet. What can we as Menoth do against such high ARM jacks?

[jandrese]

Bring your own jacks with Choir mostly. Errants aren't very good against heavy ARM but they can block up charge lanes to prevent his jacks from getting first strike on you, or at least force him to trample so he only gets a couple of attacks against your jacks. Knights Exemplar can help too, but they're very fragile and tend to be rather one-shot. Still, a Crusader with Hymn of Battle that doesn't have to charge can put 4 straight-dice hits and one dice-4 against a Khador heavy, and at MAT 8 it is not likely to miss. That's enough damage to reduce it to just a few boxes if you roll average--damaged enough that a couple of charging errants or your caster should be able to finish it off.

The real trick is to not let them get the charge on your heavy jacks. You've got to force him to waste his attacks against the Errants to stand a chance against that list. Lose a jack early and you lose the game.

[Marzuki]

So would you recommend the same concept against other factions that bring lots of high ARM models? I also fought Gators today and couldn't crack them with KEE. Didn't know what to do against so many high ARM models.

[loramer]

I have found if I can force his jacks to deal with my tarpit and focus on Karchev, the manjack will drop just like any other jack. KD/Slams can also be very effective, especially if you have hard hitting range in the list. KE senny to slam the front jack into Karchev followed by reckoner shot/charge and/or vanquisher shot and pKreoss pop'n'drop can put a hurt on him.

Having a way to prevent Karchev from casting really drop his armies damage output too. Lamentation, purification (to force him to recast tow), Covenant, Saxon, pEiyrss are all good options for this.

TFG and good spacing helps with jandrese's suggestion, as do medium based infantry models.

[Marzuki]

Reckoner didn't have a charge lane to Karchev because KEE were in the way but the slam idea is really good. I was running Harby and I should have cast Purification...SteamRoller 10 minute rules had me scattered.

[LidlessPraetor]

I find that Vilmon and other Paladins of the Wall tend to do really well against high ARM. That and enliven, enliven, enliven! Deny him more than one swing and your 'jacks should survive a bit longer

[Marzuki]

Thanks, Lidless. I was using Enliven with my Avatar. Paladins were stuck in near objectives while Vilmon charged a heavy and got killed in the counter strike

[Mathai]

Errants screening your line will shut down a trample to, if I am thinking correctly, since the model they are trying to trample through is still there and so the trample fails. Then they are stuck in a poor position and ripe for a counter charge.

Against Karchev, I'd bring the Covenant as well since he has a gun that knocks you down. The magic null zone and damage soaking capabilities might be nice as well.

I keep envisioning a Templar beating his carefully laid plans back into scattered oblivion =) Enliven it for added pleasure of denying him all the attacks he will undoubtedly like to swing said Templar's way.

[Marzuki]

I think a trample will only fail if the trampling model ends its movement on top of a model. I was surprised models engaged in melee can decide to trample through, but that's exactly what happened to my errants against an earthborn. Not the best idea, as I got about four free strikes, but it is a legal trample.

Next time I'll definitely be bringing the Covenant. Khador kept headbutting...

[Errant_knight]

Errants will not take down heavy armour on their own. You could try running Amon. With Synergy and Choir up you should hit harder and with mobility be able to out manuver them.

Tramples will not fail if the model they trampled over doesn`t die, the model is just knocked down and the jack moves on. If you can make it so there is no where for the jack to finish moving without being on a model it can not trample. Evliven wil help with survivability and the covenant stops headbutt from preventing the enliven move.

[jandrese]

I find that Vilmon and other Paladins of the Wall tend to do really well against high ARM. That and enliven, enliven, enliven! Deny him more than one swing and your 'jacks should survive a bit longer

One caveat with Vilmon and Pals is that Karchev can give all of the warjacks in his battlegroup magic weapons, and Stone and Mortar stance is useless against P+S 19 weapons.

[SnakeEyes]

You just have to plan for the Karchev brick in your list design.
Karchev is basically the poster child for me when I envision a jack heavy list.

When I design a list, I have to figure out how it's going to deal with two extremes:
1) melee infantry spam (pSkarre is my poster child for this)
2) jack spam

another that I think about is:
3) heavy ranged

So what I'm saying is that's it about having a plan in mind before you get to the game for how you'll handle the situation. And tweak your list so that you have the tools.

Specifically, it varies based on caster and list strengths. Not all that helpful, I know, but it's true.

Some casters/builds can bypass a heavy brick. pKreoss, pSevvie spell spam, a jack ranged list, etc.
You can counter through jack spam.
You can counter through Weaponmaster infantry spam.
You can counter through diversified infantry spam (i.e. TFG worthless against the brick? Run them on the flank and prepare to CRA Karchev in the back)

That said, key models that will bring you the most bang for your buck against jack spam.
eEiryss - run her and a bunch of heavy hitters within 5" of his jacks, they can't get focus and next turn you get to whoop on him.
Gorman - best 2 point solo in the game. Black Oil 90% of the time to take model/s out the game for a turn or Rust 10% of the time to compound damage.

[Beaumains]

I have a common opponent who really likes the Khador bricks, so I have developed some tactics around them.

The core of it, though, is bringing anti-armour pieces. High p+s guys aided by Aianna's Harm, Gorman's Rust, the choir's boost, maybe pSev's EoM (if he's the one being used) and so on.

It's quite amazing just how many Khador heavies you can fell (and how quickly they'll go down) if you have things like the Avatar or Blood with all those things on the charge.

[nicholas_342]

I just played a team game today against Kharchev and pVlad. Karchev actually went down pretty easily cause my partner and I both had a reckoner and we both had vassals. Hymn of battle, EoM, and 4 shots from the reckoners, two of which were boosted put major hurt into him. My partners vanquisher finished him off. Obviously that won't usually work, but running two reckoners and two vassals with a high focus caster isn't that big of a stretch.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

The Karchev power slide is very easy to counter once you see it happen a few times. Its one of those thing you see coming from a mile away. Try to bait him into using it early with your troops. With all the buffs available to you the peice exchange goes in your favor very heavily. And dont forget to purify :P

[Snipafist]

The Karchev power slide is very easy to counter once you see it happen a few times. Its one of those thing you see coming from a mile away. Try to bait him into using it early with your troops. With all the buffs available to you the peice exchange goes in your favor very heavily. And dont forget to purify :P

Anything that can mess with Karchev's spellcasting can help with the Power Slide and Karchev himself, while difficult to kill, is still usually the weakest part of the Khador heavy assault and needs to expose himself to fling his jacks forward. With all that said, if you're using pKreoss, I'd recommend keeping Lamentation running and considering the Covenant to shut down spellcasting and absorb attacks. Don't let Karchev's heavies get to your heavies if you can prevent it - if he can wipe them out in one fell swoop, it's pretty much GG for you.

On a somewhat-related-note, it amuses me that with pKreoss versus Karchev, it's pretty much a hardcore dance-off. Karchev brings his old-school Power Slide, while Kreoss breaks out his dance mat for the Pop and Drop. Which dance technique shall be superior?

[JArrow]

I think Avatar+choir+harm and/or rust is the ONLY thing that can kill closed Devastator. Arm 24 (or something like that) is too much. And I have played games, where there are comming two or even three or those armor-shells. And they also kill infantry really well. (OK, only thing they do is be on your way, but theys only purpose is to deliver Butcher to your army.

[PG_Zeber]

Another idea is to go around the jacks.
Force him to pull a jack out the brick and then go in through the gap (doable with Reznik at least), but its tricky and not something you can rely on.

With Reznik, Madelyn, Saxon and Anastasia you can go the distance, but a attentive player can see through this and plan to block you.

[PG_marijnh]

Give him enough threat to break up his formation (flank with something dangerous, force him to commit at least one warjack to it), and utilise the gap it leaves. As said a couple of times already; the weakest part in Karchev's strategy is usually Karchev himself. If he can't commit his full force all at once, he is at a major disadvantage. Take his army down brick-by-brick until he's exposed enough to wipe him out.
Beware of bad trades, though. He is likely to have more heavies than you, so make sure to kill at least 2 heavies for each 1 of yours. Enliven and our various defensive buffs help a great deal here.

[cryptomancer]

You need anti-armour pieces against Khador. Then again, you should be taking those anyways. We have plenty of Heavies that fill this well; infantry have a harder time of it. Something like the Avatar with Ignite and the Battle Hymn is P+S:23, crit-Fire, and will basically never miss. Hell, even the lowly Crusader is doing straight damage against ARM:20 under the Hymn of Battle.

The trick, of course, is getting more than 3 Focus-worth of hits against Khador. Typically, a Destroyer or a Spriggan or whatever can absorb a P+S:19 charge and two follow-up attacks without going down. Khador players in my area also tend to field Mechaniks, making the process even less appealing.

Let's look at averages for, say, the Reckoner, a typical anti-armour Heavy. Against your usual ARM:20 Khador heavy, presuming 3 Focus and Battle Hymn and nothing else (maybe you're on a budget or something), your gun does 2 damage, your charge does 9, and your two follow-ups (unboosted; you're only at -1 on damage rolls) tack on an additional 6 points apiece. That's a total of 23 points, enough to cripple, but not kill or even really disable, a Khador heavy. Troubling!

So, what do we do? Despite cheaper Heavies than most factions (by a bit), we usually spend the points on support, right? Well, what support makes the difference?

There's the Vassal for a start. Adding another P+S:19 Ancillary smack-to-the-junk will bump average damage up to 29 points, comfortably within disability territory. There's Enliven, making a Khador counter-attack a much less devastating thing. We've got plenty of cheapish combat solos, Vilmon and the Beatstick Seneschal being old favorites, though against Khador ARM scores their contributions are no guarantee.

I look to Warcasters to make up the difference rather than troopers. Support spells like Eye of Menoth, Synergy, and Ignite are fantastic Heavy-killers, upping damage output by a few points per activation, potentially making all the difference. Typically offensive feats like Kreoss1's Knockdown o Doom will have less effect against a brick of ARM:20, but can force Karchev to burn Focus on Shake effects, Focus that would otherwise go to killing your pieces. Reznik can even take Khador heavies apart himself with P+S:20 attacks, though I'd rather he concentrate on Karchev himself.

Basically, while Protectorate is a fantastic denial faction, eventually you're going to have to kill those big stompy things. Make sure there's something in every list that can take down an ARM:20 Warjack or Warbeast in one turn, or they'll walk all over you.

-crypto

[l)ruchii]

I have similar problems against my primary opponent who plays Cygnar, typically eHayley or Darius with a Centrion - this becomes unbelievably frustrating in our typical 25-35 point games wherein he has an unchargable arm 23 no-knockdown (fortify via Darius) or arm 24 (arcane shielded) heavy.

I am having a horrible time threatening the 'jack (I do not own any SPD 5 heavies except Avatar) I typically use eEyriss to debuff but cannot follow up with a charge due to polarity field.

Sorry if this is tangental but I thought it pretty similar to the brick issue.

[l)ruchii]

to clarify ^ arcane shield is from Journeyman Warcaster in turn 1 who then sits back with a defender typically

[jandrese]

Have eEiryss shoot the jack before you charge it. Bam, no more Fortify/Arcane Shield. Plus, the jack is disrupted on the following turn so if it survives it probably won't be doing much damage in return. Strangeways can negate the disruption part, but that only leaves the jack with one focus, which is better than getting pounded on by a 3 focus jack. The Jr. Warcaster will have to come forward if he wants to recast Arcane Shield too, giving you a chance of capping him in the process (although most Cygnar players will just put Arcane Shield on Darius at that point). eEiryss is no friend of Darius. If he's using Polarity Shield every turn, then he's not attacking you, go for the other jack.

[l)ruchii]

thanks for the advice, usually centurion is his only frontline jack, I just need to exploit this better. Considering trying Gorman and black oiling the offending pile of metal.

[Mathai]

The Harbinger also seems like the perfect counter to Karchev or other similar brick up 'casters. She can Purify away the stuff he wants to keep up, and will preserve the vital warrior models that stand between your stuff and an open charge lane to them. She and Paladins seem especially nice. Impervious Wall forces him/her to keep using focus to deal with their damage immunities, which when combined with having to constantly recast upkeep spells on everything will leave them without enough focus to be as big a threat. And then she also gives a buff to charge distances, which further upsets game plans.

[Snipafist]

I have similar problems against my primary opponent who plays Cygnar, typically eHayley or Darius with a Centrion - this becomes unbelievably frustrating in our typical 25-35 point games wherein he has an unchargable arm 23 no-knockdown (fortify via Darius) or arm 24 (arcane shielded) heavy.

I am having a horrible time threatening the 'jack (I do not own any SPD 5 heavies except Avatar) I typically use eEyriss to debuff but cannot follow up with a charge due to polarity field.

Sorry if this is tangental but I thought it pretty similar to the brick issue.

If you really wish to be a HUGE jerk, just trample towards the offending Centurion then buy attacks. Not as good as charging, but it lets you get in the alpha strike. This is seen (rightly so, I'd say) as a fairly gamey move, but it is legal.

[jandrese]

You're going to have a lot of trouble disabling an ARM 21 heavy jack (assuming you shoot off Arcane Shield first) with just two bought attacks at P+S -2 or so. The Trample loophole isn't as bad as it looks because it robs your jack of at least half of the attacks it was going to use otherwise, depending on how many initials it has.