Cygnar PYWAAAA!!!

[PG_Crump]

Hello everyone, just thought I'd let everyone know that Ben Rislove won today's Warmachine Weekend invitational qualifier at Mayhem Cup playing Cygnar.

[PG_Agamemnon]

Very nice.....

[JPGREAT1]

Rolling Thunder did it?! Alright Ben give up the lists... or be prepared for a massive amount of spam...

[sleet01]

So that's two for Cygnar in five months? It's not the significant turnaround we heard was coming, but I guess we can be happy we're beating Trollbloods.

Incidentally, Crump, did I hear correctly in the latest podcast that you are no longer playing Cygnar competitively, and only Keith is sticking it out?

[dcurse]

But wait, I thought Cygnar was underpowered and unplayable.

[Defenstrator]

Looking forward to seeing the lists. Here's hoping they're pretty faction pure or the "Yeah, Cygnar can win when you don't take its models" argument is going to start right up.

[sleet01]

But wait, I thought Cygnar was underpowered and unplayable.

Oh, ho, ho, sarcasm! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people game topless here while smoking dope, so sarcasm's not really a, a high priority. We haven't had any sarcasm here since about, uh, '09, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at.

I don't think anyone said the faction is "unplayable", just underpowered, overpriced, and no competitive in the tourney scene. I dunno who this Ben guy is or how the matchups turned out, so it's impossible to say if it came down to player skill alone or if favorable matches were a significant factor. It's possible the latter was more of a factor, in which case the competitiveness of the faction is still in question; the best way to find out for sure is to get Ben's perspective. But two first-place finishes for the year *still* leaves the faction in a five-way tie for second-least-top-finishes. We're not exactly burning up the tournament scene.

[PG_Crump]

Incidentally, Crump, did I hear correctly in the latest podcast that you are no longer playing Cygnar competitively, and only Keith is sticking it out?

I haven't to this day played them competitively, mostly due to the fact I'm too lazy to switch the models in and out of my bags. I should be getting a bag here soon for my mercs/cygnar/minions. I'm still focusing on circle instead of flip-flopping between factions. I'm still fairly new to this game and want to master a faction before I move on to the next. I may bring my Cygnar with me to L&L if I can fit it on the plane.

But on another more interesting topic. Ben played Danny Goodner in the last round, it was eHaley vs. pDenny. I recorded the match to post on Muse on Minis hopefully sometime this week. I'm really busy with school, but hopefully I can get it up by Friday. Keep an eye on the website.

Ben's eHaley list was something as follows (to the best of my memory):

Major Victoria Haley
-Thorn
-Centurion
-Squire
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages
+Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer
Greygore Boomhowler & Co.
Horgenhold Forge Guard
Anastasia di Bray
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
Journeyman Warcaster
Ragman
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord

[Rolling_Thunder]

Looking forward to seeing the lists. Here's hoping they're pretty faction pure or the "Yeah, Cygnar can win when you don't take its models" argument is going to start right up.

I used a lot of mercs. They are good, being a cygnar purist isn't strong enough, there are a lot of holes in faction.

Crump got my haley list correct, all the units are maxxed.

Caine1
-Rowdy
-Wishnailer

ATGM+UA
-Hunter*
-Hunter*
10 nyss
Black 13th
A&H
Jr
Reinholt
Eiryss

*Longgunners and murdoch on nyss would be better in this slot, pretty much any time the hunters were good long gunners would have been better.*

though a couple times I did like being able to put medium bases with some health in the way of enemy attacks.

[Varius]

Hello everyone, just thought I'd let everyone know that Ben Rislove won today's Warmachine Weekend invitational qualifier at Mayhem Cup playing Cygnar.

A Cygnar player winning a tournament run by you guys is whats called a "conflict of interest" here in the business world

[Rolling_Thunder]

A Cygnar player winning a tournament run by you guys is whats called a "conflict of interest" here in the business world

In fairness, they had a vested interest in me NOT winning, since now they have to drive to madison for the next one . Keith(sepher32) was 5-1 He chose the wrong caster in one round, and it lead to his defeat. A mistake a swan general cannot make.

[Varius]

In fairness, they had a vested interest in me NOT winning, since now they have to drive to madison for the next one . Keith(sepher32) was 5-1 He chose the wrong caster in one round, and it lead to his defeat. A mistake a swan general cannot make.

Im just kidding anyway, congratz on the win

Ive been wanting to try out pCaine with Wyshanlarr for a while after seeing the combo. How well did it work for you?

[Rolling_Thunder]

Im just kidding anyway, congratz on the win

Ive been wanting to try out pCaine with Wyshanlarr for a while after seeing the combo. How well did it work for you?

Wishnailer is definitely correct with pCaine, it's not a massive part of the list, but +2"s and extra die on thunderstrike is not something to overlook, it's quite powerful. the control range increase is really minor, and the extra focus is almost always just paying for blur or snipe anyway.

I was aware of your kidding! I attempted to convey friendly banter through but alas speech inflection is still impossible to imitate through text!

[Thebert]

Grats on the win sir.

Any chance of you going through you lists during the next podcasts?

[sleet01]

I haven't to this day played them competitively, mostly due to the fact I'm too lazy to switch the models in and out of my bags. I should be getting a bag here soon for my mercs/cygnar/minions. I'm still focusing on circle instead of flip-flopping between factions. I'm still fairly new to this game and want to master a faction before I move on to the next. I may bring my Cygnar with me to L&L if I can fit it on the plane.

Gotcha. Maybe we can do a mirror match! By the way, I was very glad to hear your, ahem, moderate enthusiasm for Kaiser Rushforth cases I've got a few myself, and have found their products to be great value for the price. It's nice to hear that others are having equally good results.

But on another more interesting topic. Ben played Danny Goodner in the last round, it was eHaley vs. pDenny. I recorded the match to post on Muse on Minis hopefully sometime this week. I'm really busy with school, but hopefully I can get it up by Friday. Keep an eye on the website.

That's awesome news! I look forward to seeing it.

[Varius]

Wishnailer is definitely correct with pCaine, it's not a massive part of the list, but +2"s and extra die on thunderstrike is not something to overlook, it's quite powerful. the control range increase is really minor, and the extra focus is almost always just paying for blur or snipe anyway.

I was aware of your kidding! I attempted to convey friendly banter through but alas speech inflection is still impossible to imitate through text!

I know, I tried to create a sarcastic font...but everyone kept using it saying "this font is so great and easy to use!" so I deleted it because of all the negativity...

[MollyHatchet]

Yea, poor Danny. Second time runner up in the row at one of their events. Thats gotta sting a little bit.

The crew in Des Moines run a rather tight ship, and a really good show. Was a blast being a part of it, even if I stunk it up quite a bit in my games. (Completely forgetting to put Rowdy on the board in the first game in the 20 point softcore, although hilarious, is rather inexcusable, but I will say being up for almost 24 hours at that point didnt help me at all.)

[rydiafan]

Grats, Ben! Thanks for helping bring the cup home!

I'm just proud I won the sportsmanship award by not showing up. Shame I couldn't claim it, due to not showing up.

[Griffin839]

Congrats to you on your victories.

Now if we could just get pure Cygnar to win something.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Congrats to you on your victories.

Now if we could just get pure Cygnar to win something.

Access to Mercs are part of our faction, and part of how cygnar is balanced. Why not use the tools available to you?

[rydiafan]

Access to Mercs are part of our faction, and part of how cygnar is balanced. Why not use the tools available to you?

Indeed. Every faction is buoyed to some extent by merc or minion enhancement. Denying every tool available to you is pointless handicapping.

[Varius]

Indeed. Every faction is buoyed to some extent by merc or minion enhancement. Denying every tool available to you is pointless handicapping.

Personally, I own all of the Cygnar faction units. The fact that I have to buy an almost full merc army to play it rubs me the wrong way. Mercs should be flavor or a small help, maybe fill a niche role, not the crux of the army...

[Thebert]

Access to Mercs are part of our faction, and part of how cygnar is balanced. Why not use the tools available to you?

Pretty much this... I mean most of our infantry is really good in in the right situation... theres nothing wrong with the fact our stuff requires caster synergy or buffs to kick ***.

Theres also nothing wrong with using Nyss and Boomhowlers (which are also that damn good) because they fill an obvious hole in the faction.

The choice to use Foregaurd is an interesting one, and not something I'd thought of... That is something Im going to have to test.

[PG_Crump]

Grats, Ben! Thanks for helping bring the cup home!

I'm just proud I won the sportsmanship award by not showing up. Shame I couldn't claim it, due to not showing up.

You're welcome! Just come to the next one in Des Moines, after Madison runs 3 events and it defaults back to Iowa.

[MollyHatchet]

Access to Mercs are part of our faction, and part of how cygnar is balanced. Why not use the tools available to you?

Because a faction should be internally balanced, not "absolutely" needing a second faction to be competative. The quotes are there because quite frankly its an argument that has been quite beaten into the ground so far that China is getting tired of the noise and is asking for it to stop.

There are people that want in faction greatness, and those that dont mind having to grab those things that they think are needed from outside to win. I quite refuse to say which is better, worse or even right. In my mind, both sides are.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I have argued both sides in fact. I would like more in faction goodness, but I'm not going to deny myself tools when I want to win something

[phreaker187]

I have argued both sides in fact. I would like more in faction goodness, but I'm not going to deny myself tools when I want to win something

I'd like to see more in faction goodness as well, but when you are in the tourney scene you can't afford to play models that are "pretty good." WM/H is about playing great models, not mediocre ones.

[sleet01]

Which is why so many people play Cryx and Legion, amirite?

[santospr]

Great job on Cygnar winning something, so the haters and whiners can quiet down... Unfortunately, as it always tends to happen, the win will be put down to either apparent easy match ups, player skill and most definitely the extravagant use of mercs that the faction has access to.

I am a purist and find it ironic that Mercs alone and Cygnar alone can't do it, but the marriage between them can!

In the end, people need to grow up and chill out. Great job winning the Mayhem Cup, too bad St. Louis didn't show this time.

And Players win tournaments, not factions.

[absent]

Ben wins a 60 person tournament with some of the best players in the world attending and people are really trying to place credit for the win on some mercs in his list? He's a good player with a capable faction of very powerful casters.

In fairness, they had a vested interest in me NOT winning, since now they have to drive to madison for the next one .

I'm pretty sure they threw it to us just to not have to run this monster tournament, and also so they have an excuse to leave ohiowa

[Ysthrall]

Whether or not we need mercs is irrelevant to the desire expressed.

"Now if we could just get pure Cygnar to win something."

Maybe we need mercs to play at competitive levels, maybe not. Personally, I believe not (mostly cos Boomhowler won't remind me of the scenario rules, Cylena won't help me roll well, and no matter what I pay Rupert, he won't remind me to pop my feat).

Cygnar with mercs can win tournements. Well done guys, nice job, looking forwards to more victories to come.

The question here is, can Cygnar without mercs win tournements? Lets try for faction purity (or hard mode, as some would have it. Or "pointlessly handicapping yourself" as others would have it.), just to see if we can. For the challenge, if naught else.

[tensteam]

Ben wins a 60 person tournament with some of the best players in the world attending and people are really trying to place credit for the win on some mercs in his list? He's a good player with a capable faction of very powerful casters.

Was it 60 player tournament? Cool! Based on the web page I thought there were 16 players.

In any case congrats for the win! I completely agree that any Cygnar player looking for success should look at all the possibilities there are ie. mercs. Using Forge guard is interesting because I don't have the unit (yet). A unit of weaponmasters (with the super important reach) seems to help to mitigate the loss of A&H to another list. I might need to test Boomhowlers too with eHaley. So far I've actually done well without any tarpit unit at all because the feat itself does the trick pretty nicely. On the other hand with Deadeye they can actually land pretty accurate pow12 shots if needed.

As a final statement I'd like to add that with eHaley Cygnar doesn't have disadvantage against anyone ever.

[VagrantPoet]

As a final statement I'd like to add that with eHaley Cygnar doesn't have disadvantage against anyone ever.

Ravyn.

Well done Ben! I really enjoyed your Playing the Best articles on MoM. I hope you get time to write some more. I'd be especially interested to see your thoughts on eCaine and anti-multiple heavy lists (Hordes, Menoth). Though that eHaley list looks set up for it. Anastasia is easier to pull off on how far forward warlocks play, the forgeguard and Centurion can kill beasts like champs, and Boomhowlers can soak any alpha strike.

Also, how did the Ragman work out for you?

[dm33186]

Was it 60 player tournament? Cool! Based on the web page I thought there were 16 players.

Day one was 3 rounds to cut to the top 16 to play deathclock day two with the same lists.

The rest of us that didn't make the top 16 cut went on to do either the 35 point on sunday or the 20 point MM/TC

Grats on the win.

[Brettman008]

I used a lot of mercs. They are good, being a cygnar purist isn't strong enough, there are a lot of holes in faction.

Crump got my haley list correct, all the units are maxxed.

Caine1
-Rowdy
-Wishnailer

ATGM+UA
-Hunter*
-Hunter*
10 nyss
Black 13th
A&H
Jr
Reinholt
Eiryss

*Longgunners and murdoch on nyss would be better in this slot, pretty much any time the hunters were good long gunners would have been better.*

though a couple times I did like being able to put medium bases with some health in the way of enemy attacks.

Congrats on the win Thunder. Am I correct in assuming that's eEyirss?

[Thebert]

I don't understand why people make such a big deal about "pure" Cygnar...

Every faction that can use (e)Eyirss does so... same with most of the good merc solos/units, and fans of those faction don't start crying when someone wins a tourney using models that are good. Cygnar has the best merc access in the game as part of their stick.

I highly doubt any of this will ever change because PP designed Cygnar to be this way. You might as well be complaining that the freaking sky is blue.

[PG_carnage4u]

You're welcome! Just come to the next one in Des Moines, after Madison runs 3 events and it defaults back to Iowa.

We came up with the 3 defend return rule, because we got sick of defending it. I'm thinking of changing it to "3 defends and then throw it in the river rule" to use next.


also

When other factions win big events, I don't think I see too many comments about how "pure" the army was. Mercs are an option to be used, and there is nothing wrong with it.

[dm33186]

We came up with the 3 defend return rule, because we got sick of defending it. I'm thinking of changing it to "3 defends and then throw it in the river rule" to use next.

The problem with this is we have to drive to the river, which means that we can't avoid seeing Iowa

[MollyHatchet]

I highly doubt any of this will ever change because PP designed Cygnar to be this way.

Citation needed on this please. Far as I know that has never been actually said out loud, and more then likely will never be.

You might as well be complaining that the freaking sky is blue.

And I want one on this too.

All sort of kidding aside, I dont think the argument is over Solo useage, its based squarely on the Units involved. I will never buy Forgeguard. I absolutely hate the models, as they are ugly as heck to me. I wont buy Nyss Hunters, because glueing my fingers together doesnt seem like all that much fun to me. Boomhowlers are... well Boomhowlers. Been bounding so hard on that one I am starting to feel like a basketball. Dont want Steelheads because PG_Charwood has more of them then Carter has pills and frankly I dont want the area to go into critical mass because of it.

All in all it comes down to Personal Preferance. Rolling_Thunder used Mercs with the Blues, won the tourney, and that is fine. Congrats, and I am glad he did well. I quite refuse to knock it as he is a good player, and did pretty much everything he could right.

[Stephan Garmark]

Congrats on the win Ben, really well done with the blues.
So, how many wins does Cygnar have to get, exactly, before people here in this particular forum agree with everybody else that Cygnar is just as good as any other faction, and that, despite all, warmachine/hordes is a very well balanced game?