forgeguard or devil dogs?

[Eredhiel]

Hi all,

I am debating what should I field with ashlynn. I need some infantry that can do damage to high armor. although the dwarves can do that well with their WM pow 11, the dogs can do it well enough on KD targets in melee (I also field mule, ATGM, a freebooter and a bucaneer, so KDs are not that rare) or they have this really strong pow 14 range attack with CRA (and embarassing RAT 4). devils have better SPD, dwarves have reach, devils have better DEF (15 with quicken) which in ashlynn's feat turn can make the difference between life and death, dwarves have high ARM, although not as high as one may want it.

was wondering if some more experienced player has extensively tried them both and can offer insight.

thanks

[pattison]

Field both if you can...
But the dwarves are too good with Ashlynn to pass up.

[Eredhiel]

hehe, I shared your feeling, they have always been my first choice, but it really pisses me that I have to take a below average unit (SPD 4 DEF 10) and make it slightly above average with a spell, when other armies have just better units to start with. And that DEF 10 in melee is really not helping even with the feat, they normally manage lose 1-2 troopers before getting into action, do a fair amount of damage on their charge turn and then get totally annihilated on the next round... on the other hand, the devils with mcNaile and quicken can threaten some 8 + 6 = 14 inches with 3-4 POW 16-17 CRA... and under feat the enemy will have a hard time hitting a 13 DEF with 4 dice...

[Eredhiel]

having said this, these are all my prediction on paper, as I have never fielded them yet

[pattison]

it really pisses me that I have to take a below average unit

Nnaaa man, that's just wrong. Especially with no experience with them.
Forge Guard is nowhere below average. Yup, SPD4 is slow, and DEF10 is low as well, but they're not a front line unit.
You just have to use them properly and they're easily becoming stars.

Not to mention that we have so many different options to buff our units.
Yup, sometimes the base stats that we have to start with are uninspiring, but that's the merc way, and if you don't like it this way just pick a faction where you get everything ready-made and don't have to think about buffs and combos.

No one picks on my little Horgenhold buddies!

[Eredhiel]

haha I misexpressed myself. I played a lot with dwarves, not at all with devildogs. still if you say they are not a front line unit, who is then? or better even, how do I solve the old conundrum to scratch those high ARM opponents? I need to have some units that can do the job and keep them alive enough to be effective...

[MagnustheJust]

Yeah... Sam & the DD's are not a frontline unit. They fight better with guerrilla tactics.

If you are looking for a more frontline shock trooper type, then I would go with the Steelhead Halberdiers. CMA, reach, set defense, and powerful charge for a 4/6 cost is just crazy good.


But if you have your heart set on them, I say proxy the DD's first in a few games to see how they do for you...

[pattison]

SHH in the front, FG at the back.
A max DDogs is still a better frontline than FG (especially when taken in MacBain's tier, tee-hee).
But in general I'd say SHH.
I only use Forge Guard as a frontline in Searforge. But then I bring 3 units, so I don't care if some of them die up front, as the rest will take revenge.
...Nope, actually I use Gunbunnies as frontline in Searforge. Those sneaky tarpits are being sprayed to death then the FG steps up.

[mikethefish]

Indeed - i have always found Rhulic Lights to make the best Searforge front-line skirmish screen

But as far as the original topic goes, Forgeguard are definitely a better unit than Devil Dogs (unless you REALLY need the Pronto drive). But like folks have stated, they need somebody screening for them. Steelhead Halbardiers work because they are cheap. Boomhowler works also, because he's harder than a coffin nail. The screen takes shots and engages the bad guys, and the Forgeguard comes in behind and then absolutely starts regulating.

[wazatdingder]

I find that i want to like the DDs, but someone else always goes the job I want them to do a wee more effectively.

[Tucker]

It's an awkward choice to make because, in my opinion, both the Forgeguard and the Devil Dogs are supporting units. That is to say, if you take them on their own their defensive stats are such that they'll get killed pretty easily for little return. They both work much better as the second or third unit in the army, hanging around in the backfield, waiting to pounce on vulnerable enemy units.

The Devil Dogs are okay. They're cheap, and Sam has some nice weapons and good drive. If you don't rely on them to do all of your fighting for you they can be fairly effective, as they have a way to kill almost anything save hi DEF infantry.

Forgeguard are a better stand alone unit. Weapon Master + Reach = dead bad guys. It sounds like your army already has quite a bit of firepower with Gun Mages, a Mule, etc., and I find Forgeguard can work well being the counter-charge element in a shooty army, moving to engage the enemy when he gets too close to your guns.

I would get Forgeguard to start. The Devil Dogs are a perfectly fine unit but they're a little more niche, so they're a better in larger games. On the plus side the models for both units are rather nice, the devil dogs in particular.

[MagnustheJust]

It's an awkward choice to make because, in my opinion, both the Forgeguard and the Devil Dogs are supporting units. That is to say, if you take them on their own their defensive stats are such that they'll get killed pretty easily for little return. They both work much better as the second or third unit in the army, hanging around in the backfield, waiting to pounce on vulnerable enemy units.

The Devil Dogs are okay. They're cheap, and Sam has some nice weapons and good drive. If you don't rely on them to do all of your fighting for you they can be fairly effective, as they have a way to kill almost anything save hi DEF infantry.

Forgeguard are a better stand alone unit. Weapon Master + Reach = dead bad guys. It sounds like your army already has quite a bit of firepower with Gun Mages, a Mule, etc., and I find Forgeguard can work well being the counter-charge element in a shooty army, moving to engage the enemy when he gets too close to your guns.

I would get Forgeguard to start. The Devil Dogs are a perfectly fine unit but they're a little more niche, so they're a better in larger games. On the plus side the models for both units are rather nice, the devil dogs in particular.

Good stuff here Kiddies!!

[PG_vytzka]

I wish we had more subpar units like MAT 7 P+S 11 Weaponmasters for the price of Iron Fangs. If we could have some in the Four Star Syndicate I'd be chuffed.

Don't focus on SPD, focus on everything else. Forge Guard are pretty damn impressive for the price. And when you take away their lone serious drawback? Oh my.

[LiamPiver]

And never underestimate a CRA with the DD's either. Ashylnn makes both pretty solid. In her tier, the DDs have always done well for me at 35.

[PG_Salix060907]

Wait a second....you mean the forge guard don't work for 4 star??? Hmmm..... that's a shame. I've always taken them in Highborn. But was thinking about them instead of kazazy assassins in my Bartolo list.

[Eredhiel]

I am going to post a list in the list section, if anyone wants to comment on the unit as part of the list rather than by itself

[PG_vytzka]

Wait a second....you mean the forge guard don't work for 4 star??? Hmmm..... that's a shame. I've always taken them in Highborn. But was thinking about them instead of kazazy assassins in my Bartolo list.

They don't like either Khador or Cryx. I'll let you do the math.

(and no special early bird clauses like DDs or Rhupert either)

[PG_Salix060907]

And that is what I get for thinking of add stuff to a list without checking to make sure that it is legal.

[PG_vytzka]

You should have used Forward Kommander I guess

[mlambie]

Out of habit i always run the forgeguard with ashlynn. my thinking is that the +2 spd and her feat can make their hammers go "crit!". experience has told me the same thing you've found, that the feat is wasted defensively on the forgeguard, they still get hit all day long on 4d6. the other thing ive noticed is that with RARE exception, i pass on the crit usually, since other guys want to atk or i want to do more dmg. This has led me, too, to evaluate the use of the forgeguard in ashlynn lists. the devil dogs i usually field with her at 50, marshalling another mule, using them instead of the forgeguard will probably result in a more shooting/defensive playstyle to your list, as now you have no dedicated melee element. at that point its like an ashlynn gunline. bottom line: less dead troops, both for you (def 13 on 4d6 is tough) and your opponent (they just dont get the job done like forgeguard). I for one would be interested to hear how it works out for you after some playtesting.

[PG_vytzka]

Why does anyone call Devil Dogs a shooting unit? They're range 4.

That's not a criticism of them, I'm merely wondering.

[Ger]

Why does anyone call Devil Dogs a shooting unit? They're range 4.

That's not a criticism of them, I'm merely wondering.

4" range does make their guns outrange their charges. Also more of them will be able to shoot a KD model then can get into melee range. If you don't clog melee range with Devil Dogs it also leaves open the option to send in something else after the units activation.

Snipe and Dougal can also improve their shooting.

That said I agree they are a bit more melee focused in and of themselves. Wish I had my merc book close to hand so I could double check stats but sadly I do not.

[MagnustheJust]

4" range does make their guns outrange their charges. Also more of them will be able to shoot a KD model then can get into melee range. If you don't clog melee range with Devil Dogs it also leaves open the option to send in something else after the units activation.

Snipe and Dougal can also improve their shooting.

That said I agree they are a bit more melee focused in and of themselves. Wish I had my merc book close to hand so I could double check stats but sadly I do not.

Yeah... they are. MAT 6, RAT 4 is definitely more melee oriented.

[canadianone]

also 10+4d6 does a helluvalot more than 14+2d6


math
10+4d6= 24
14+7=21


so maybe not a helluvalot, but it is 3 points more damage per model, and if you think you can get 3 in combat against a khador heavy, that is 12 damage as opposed to 7 shooting it, which is only 7 damage.

[Ashcans]

The Devil Dogs are definitely primarily a melee unit, but there is no reason to discount or ignore their slug guns. If you are in a situation where you are not going to be able to charge or you don't think you can knock down your target (remember that the Net only works on Jacks and Beasts) the slug guns can be a better option. If your target isn't knocked down, PS10+3D6 is slightly worse than PS14+2D6, and if you can't get a charge in (due to terrain or effects) shooting might be your only real option. Most people are aware enough to try and prevent both charges and knockdowns from the Dogs, so this isn't that uncommon a situation.

RAT4 is pretty miserable, but it's generally possible to get at least 2-man CRAs together (three if you are forunate on positioning and range). Let's say you can't get a charge on a jack - advancing and hitting it with a RAT7, P17 shot is a pretty good secondary option.

[Lanz]

Definitely Forge Guard. Quicken brings them up to good Infantry speed, which is tops with the fact that they already have Reach, and the feat lets them pull some punishing critical hits.

[JohnOSpencer]

also 10+4d6 does a helluvalot more than 14+2d6


math
10+4d6= 24
14+7=21


so maybe not a helluvalot, but it is 3 points more damage per model, and if you think you can get 3 in combat against a khador heavy, that is 12 damage as opposed to 7 shooting it, which is only 7 damage.

You don't shoot targets if you can charge them. Shooting knocked down targets is for the subsequent turns of combat where you can't charge. POW14 is better (on average) than POW10 with an extra die.

I love the Devil Dogs, they were my first Merc infantry unit and they still get a lot of use. They surprise people with what they can do. Most casters can do something for them, quicken from Ashlynn, fortune from Damiano, or (my current favorite) death march from Damiano. Their shooting attack, while close ranged, can hurt stuff badly. CRA gives them the ability to hit stuff you don't want to end up next to, or to beat on jacks or beasts and not give up too many models when they stand up from being knocked down (usually by one sacrificial trooper). I've killed two casters with Slug Gun shots (both were knocked down), so it can be good.

After all the gushing, I must say that they are a bit squishy. Rhupert should come standard with them.