Questions from a new player currently playing with a 15 point army...

[oatmeal1201]

Hi guys, I recently picked up the battle box + agonizer + paingiver beast handlers and have played about 8 or so games so far. I'd like to give you the basic rundown of how I usually play out my rounds and see if you can give me some advice because I just don't see how this team can get to the other caster. I'm having issues. Maybe you can help...

We don't use terrain and I'm playing against both horde and warmachine.

1st round usually involves me running out as fast as I can. I cast admonition on the Titan and maybe the Cyclops Savage. I try and give the rest of my fury to the agonizer thinking it may be my only chance to give him some. I usually move each of them out about 10 inches in a nice straight line with the paingivers a few inches behind each Warbeast. My question here is should I be casting different spells on them as they go out? Today, while I was thinking about new strategies, I thought maybe I should enrage them and use Rush to get them out into the field farther and quicker. Not sure if this is a good move but one I'm willing to try. This first round is basically me just moving them out as far as they can to prepare for round two. Can you fellow players give me a normal first round of what you guys do?

2nd round usually involves me Rushing and Slamming the biggest guy within range of my titan. I usually dont kill whatever I'm going after because it's just as big as I am. I also run with the Cyclops Savages and engage in some combat there. This locks up each of the three warbeasts. Again, I'll try to keep the Paingivers close behind. Next I'll try and move my caster up to keep my Command Range in check. Ok, so again, I might kill one or two guys but it doesn't feel like I'm doing any major damage here. Also, my opponents round two usually wipes up my guys if they are within range. I might survive if they get some bad rolls. What I was thinking today for this one was to keep one of the Savages back a little bit to protect my caster more but then I'm thinking I shouldn't do that because we're Skorne and we should bring the fight to them. Another question is should I try and position myself so I can go for a caster kill with my castor or should I be protecting my castor while getting someone else to do the work? Is it okay to move one of the warbeasts out of range of the castor and just accept that I'll need to do a threshhold check next round? Finally, I know every situation is differnt but what spells do you find yourself using from Morghoul in this second round? I think I'm usually going with abuse to get the warbeast out.

3rd round usually involves me engages with all enemies from the opposing side. I'm usually locked up so bad I just can't seem to create an opening. Does anyone ever throw with the Titan to make room? That's one thing that I think I could have tried in one game to try and create a path but I didn't. I think another thing I read today was to use admonition just so you could move the warbeasts back three inches so they could charge/slam next round. Is this normal?

I guess my main question is what do you guys usually finding yourselves doing in these first few rounds? Do you keep Morghoul safe in the back or do you get him into the action with the other guys? I've been playing really carefully with Morghoul and keeping him away from all bad guys so much I'm thinking maybe it's better to get him in there to kill stuff to make room for someone who can perform a castor kill.

It's a little frustrating because I keep thinking I'm doing stuff wrong and getting locked down so bad that I must be playing the wrong way. Dont' get me wrong, I'm still having fun because after it's over, I want to play another round and try another set of ideas. Should I move all warbeasts forward as quickly as possible or leave one back with the castor? Which model do you find usually kills the other players castor in 15 point games? Are there spells that you find really valuable in 15 point matches? ANother thing is that I don't find this castor that valuable but the threads usually say this is one of the better ones. How is he usually played?

I know I've asked a lot and I'm basically looking for some general tips. Before you ask, yes I've read the Skorne Tactics Compilation links and I've read about my different models. I know I'm still learning and it takes time and all that. Thankfully I'm playing with a great group of guys that are still learning with me.

[jettzypher]

the agonizer is good, but he's not ideal with low-fury casters.

i think your first turn should be to run. the way id run it is you want to spend morghouls fury giving rush to the gladiator and himself. then he charges at something for 12 inches. then everything else runs for 12 to catch up and have any of the beasts rile so you can be at max fury on your next turn. the gladiator wants to take down your opponents heavies. the cyclops are decent at solo hunting, taking on other lights, and can gang up on other heavies if need be. morghoul wants to run up and annihilate your opponents infantry. so depending on how close you are from your opponent and how they positioned will determine what you do next exactly, but these guys will want to go after those targets respectively.

[Junn Khan]

Really quick, the first turn looks about right. Second turn you might want to charge with the Gladiator instead of slam. Slamming is more of an opportunity rule than a killing heavies rule. One the gladiator has done his thing use/sacrifice a savage to hold the flank. Maybe feat with morghoul as not forcing will keep your beasts alive. Don't forget admonition on the Gladiator as it can also help keep the big guy alive for a turn. Agonizer can work but you'll need a few turns, against Warmachine I'd advise waiting a till after the feat, against Hordes use it when you have a chance but keep the little guy safe.

[stormshaft]

A bunch of really good tips here.

Mine would be to either buy or make some terrain, even just putting out a few boxes to break line of sight and a blank paper to serve as a shallow water feature or something.
Terrain brings a whole bunch of new dynamics to a wargame, and it let's none-shooty armies actually stand a decent chance against the more range oriented armies.

I would also not recommend running the Cyclopes into melee just to tie things up at these low points since they will most likely get sliced in the next round. They are SPD6 with a reach-weapon which gives them a higher threat range than many other beasts and jacks in the game, try to use this to your advantage instead of just giving them to your enemy.

Also, getting a Bloodrunner Master Tormentor instead of the Agonizer can be a nice idea, especially if the enemy is taking some form of support or a small unit. Advance Deployment, high speed and Pathfinder together with a Thresher attack with reach and Anatomical Precision equals death for most support units.


Hope some of it helped.

Keep up the work!

[elpolloloco]

@jettzypher
Rush is warbeast only.

@oatmeal1201
I would recommend charging heavies with your gladiator instead of slamming you will probably kill whatever you get into combat with after you enrage and abuse it will be hitting at P+S 20 x2 and P+S19 once. plus 4 additional attacks. Don't discount your savages either, a team of them will cripple or wreck a Kahdor heavy if abused and enraged.

[Glasskin]

Here's what I would do. It depends a bit on what you're up against.

Turn 1: Similar to you. I'd run the Cyclopes. I'd have the Gladiator Rush on itself and Trample forward for 9" of movement. I'd advance Morghoul, Maltreat one of the Cyclopes, put Admonition on one of the beasts, probably the Gladiator, and put the remaining 4 Fury on the Agonizer. The Paingivers and Agonizer can just run for now. I'll note that against some Cryx lists you may want to put All of Morghoul's fury on the Agonizer, then have it use Spiritual Affliction, and run to the front of your army to stop things like Crippling Grasp.

Turn 2: What I'd do here depends a lot on what I'm up against, but I'll try to break it down. If I'm charging in, I might drop Admonition, but I'll usually keep it up.

If you're in charge range:
First, advance the Paingivers, and Enrage anyone who wants to charge. If there's enemy shooting or melee infantry, I'd send one Savage to tie it down. Try to charge, but I'd definitely run if it's the only way to engage a tarpit. You can also tie down heavies this way, if you can set up a charge against them on your next turn. Morghoul can Maltreat that Savage if necessary, and cast Abuse on up to 2 things, or Abuse and Rush, and still be camping. Then your Savage and Gladiator can charge in. If you can, charge the same thing with both Savages. Two Enraged Savages can kill heavies, and won't have trouble killing lights. If you think a P+S 20 Gladiator can kill what you're charging, then charge rather than slam, to do more damage. Either use the Agonizer or Morghoul's Feat this turn. Often, when I charge, my beasts will be on the edge of Morghoul's CTRL, so I'll run the Agonizer up after using one of its Agonies. Against WM, try to catch as many 'jacks as possible with Spiritual Affliction. Against Hordes, try to cover as many of your own beasts as possible with Gnawing Pain.

If you're not in charge range:
Then Advance everyone to within good charge positions, usually leading with the beast that has Admonition. Definitely upkeep Admonition this turn. Again, I'd use the Agonizer or Morghoul's Feat, leaning heavily toward the Agonizer. Against WM, use Spiritual Affliction, and run it up to catch as many 'jacks as possible. If necessary, put more Fury on it during Morghoul's activation to expand the bubble. Against Hordes, again cover your own beasts with Gnawing Pain. I'd be more likely to use Morghoul's feat defensively on turn 2 against Hordes. This is also a good turn to heal any damage your beasts may have taken.

Turn 3: Now just kill as much of their stuff as you can. If you can assassinate without leaving Morghoul vulnerable, try it, but I'd mostly recommend killing the opposing army. If you didn't Feat last turn, you probably should this turn, to put a real lockdown on things. You might want to consider recasting Admonition on Morghoul if you have the Fury.

Well, that was longer than I'd planned. I hope it was helpful. You have a solid list, and the more you play, the better you'll get at using it.

[oatmeal1201]

Thanks everyone. There's some good stuff here that I never thought about. Like casting Admonition on Morghoul or charging with the Titan. For some reason, I thought I should ALWAYS Slam with him since that's his thing.

Do you guys find yourselves killing the other casters with Morghoul more or one of your other units?

[Glasskin]

Well, as for the Gladiator, slam + follow up is definitely powerful. I usually do it if I need 7's or 8's to hit, or if there are targets behind the slam target that I want to get to. Against most heavies, I'll charge to get the extra attacks.

As for caster kills, my Savage (lately) and Gladiator/Bronzeback usually get the kill. Sometimes Morghoul will charge in and scritch the enemy caster to death, but usually he'll be too far away when I make my assassination run.

[Carrington]

1st round usually involves me running out as fast as I can. I cast admonition on the Titan and maybe the Cyclops Savage.

Noticed this... because I've wanted to do the same thing. Admonition should be cast on the Titan or the Savage: it's an upkeep spell so can only be active once.

[Ikazuyr]

I don't have experience with the Savages, so I can't speak to that. However, the Gladiator on turn one usually Rushes itself and then tramples forward for 9" of movement. Depending on how far forward your opponent moved on their turn, Morghoul uses Abuse and Rush on the Gladiator, pain givers enrage him, and he then can charge 11" without forcing. Only real problem with this is making sure Morghoul is far enough forward that the Gladiator is in his control range to force when you close distance. A charging, abused, enraged Gladiator which can be forced up to 4 times (potentially 7 attacks) is a force that not much in the game can really survive. Probably use the cyclopses (what's the plural on that?) to try and block charge lanes to Morghoul and the Gladiator so you don't get assassinated and the Gladiator can look to do his thing again the next turn.

[jettzypher]

the cyclops savage dont get used a lot cause it only has one attack, fury 3, and less than ideal mat to hit. and for 5 points there are better options. but having future sight is a plus to make them fury efficient. so enrage em and charge away for a potential of 4 str 15 hits which can waste a good number of things or put a decent hurting on a heavy.

and my mistake about rush. but he can still sit at 10 inches up the field with admonition.

[Junn Khan]

Savages work quite well with Morghoul actually. He can get them up to P+S 17 with no problem and Future Sight on Morghoul makes for a much easier Mroghoul assassination run. Simplified version is if Morghoul rolls more than one point of damage on the dice you should boost after the fact.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

Welcome aboard!

A couple of thoughts;

- Morghoul gives his beasts some ridiculous threat ranges. Keep these tricks "in your hand" and don't tip your opponent off to the fact that you have them. For example, your cyclopes could be abused (+2spd) and rushed (+2move) to run a whopping 18 inches and engage an unsuspecting model 20 inches away. A good example of this sort of tactic paying would be engaging the Black 13th before they could even become a threat. So to keep it simple, don't break out your awesome tricks until you're ready to have them pay off. In the meantime, just run your models. Maybe rush a few of them if you feel jiggy. To clarify "keeping your tricks in hand", I mean don't run 18 inches on turn 1 just because you can. Use it when you're about to kill something awesome.

- Don't trade your Titan needlessly. Keep it at least a few inches behind your cylcops. Your gladiator is capable of tearing almost anything in the game to pieces. Treat it as such

- Admonition. Admonition. Admonition. Read it again, carefully. Make sure this spell is on your gladiator or Morghoul at all times. Its often the difference between crumping and getting crumped. If we go back to the aforementioned example of a cyclops missile engaging the B13, imagine the B13 moving to engage the cyclops (in order to gunfighter it to death) only to find out they wasted their activation as the cyclops moves out of their engagement while remaining engaged.

- Morghoul himself is actually great at busting up infantry. Cast future sight on him and watch the shenanigans ensue. Between overtake and sprint he can actually keep himself pretty safe.

- Speaking of staying safe, I feel your next purchase (for either Morghoul) should be the Brute. A stationary Morghoul is a dead Morghoul and right now the Brute is your best hedge against most shenanigans out there. In the case of Kreoss, camp your fury......which brings us to...

- Maltreat. Don't forget it. It'll allow you to sneak in another Abuse/Rush or maybe shuffle another Admonition into the mix if you find yourself in a bind.

-Play with terrain. Def17 is nice, but your entire battle group can benefit from the occasional cover/concealment.

[oatmeal1201]

Thanks again everyone. There is a lot here that I never thought about and can't wait to try in my next game!