Freezering the War Wagon?

[DrakkenBlut]

The useless Winter troll has an useful animus. If one casts said animus on a model with a base as big as possible... and War Wagon has such a base, Mountain Kings should join it soon... you could make a nearly impenetrable wall that tramples, knocks down and shoots. Even better with two wagons. Sounds too good to be true, or am I missing something?

[wargrim]

You still got to take the winter troll, your "impenetrable wall" gets no benefits against shooting, can't hide, has a base that lets nearly a whole unit engage it and has a worse survive-ability than the axer.

There are worse things than to try this, but "impenetrable" is a rough overestimate.

[omerplata]

Doesn't work against ranged attacks. If you leave the WW that far in front he will be shot up before he can really be of use. The MK will have more durability, but his speed will be too slow to throw out in front. He will slow the rest of the army down if you wish to use that tactic. Also, he will be shot up a bit so once engaged in melee it will be slightly easier to take him down.

[Beckman]

It seems like it has some uses on the War Wagon but there are some problems with it.
1. You have a 5" AOE that is PERFECT for killing HIGH DEF, low ARM models. So you don't have as much trouble dealing with them with the War Wagon to begin with. You can just fire while engaged at those Iron Fleshed Assassins and explode them all.
2. Some of the highest DEF troops in the game (Nyss Hunters + Iron Flesh, Winterguard + Iron Flesh) are ranged units, and therefore will not be affected by the Winter Troll's animus.
3. You still lose to enemy shooting, or models powerful enough to melee you to death.
4. Anything low DEF, you could hit anyways.

The Mountain King, if they let it be affected by animi, will need constant Elemental Communion and Janissa wall for +2 ARM. But they really shouldn't let Collossals or Gargantuans be affected by buffs or armor debuffs.

[Drzombieface]

The War Wagon was not designed to be used as a wall. It's an artillery piece that has abilities that let it move up the board and position itself to where it needs to be. If it's just sitting there, it's going to be susceptible to charges, shooting, etc, while your 9 points are wasted. Not to mention, as pointed out above, Axers are more durable than the Wagon.

Still bring your Winter Troll along, but don't use it just to turn your hefty investment into a giant refrigerator that just sits there waiting to get charged and ripped apart.

[DrakkenBlut]

Ranged? WarWagons are high ARM, high health things that shoot back! Also, a perfect target for Grim's return fire spell, I don't see ranged as a threat at all. Main use for this setup would be to neutralize heavies that have a chance to rip the WW apart. (And weapon masters etc.)

So again, a couple of WW with freezer on them, picking out targets and vulnerable only to magic, shooting and the rare immune to cold things, practically immune to melee. Able to ignore opposing heavies. I still don't see a downside, Freezer looks like Bump on steroids in this setup.

Really guys, thanks for the effort, but:

- I don't see shooting as a meaningful countermeasure to WW. WW shoots first, shoots hard, knocks down, has high enough armor to shrug off anything other than boosted DMG high POW/ AP shots.
- Freezer does not expire after it effects. Entire units must go around a Freezered WW, or become stationary. Maybe you've all overlooked this point.
- Beckman, you seem to take that the main use of Freezer would be to lower DEF. I was looking at it as a means to ignore any CC threats to the Wagon and to the entire army behind the Wagon.
- Drzombieface, WW would become a wall in the sense that nothing would get past it, I would still play WW as a very mobile piece.
- Axers are more durable than the Wagon, yes. But Freezered Axers do not block that much space as a Freezered WW. The comparison makes no sense in this case.

Any more arguments?

[DrakkenBlut]

Stupid double post

[Beckman]

Beckman, you seem to take that the main use of Freezer would be to lower DEF. I was looking at it as a means to ignore any CC threats to the Wagon and to the entire army behind the Wagon.

See, but that's what Freezer doesn't do. It freezes the unit AFTER it's done trying to wreck you. If it fails at wrecking you, it gets made stationary. If it succeeds, the animus doesn't trigger.

Also, a beast/warjack or warlock/warcaster can "Shake Off" the stationary condition at the cost of 1 FURY during the maintenence phase. Granted, this costs 1 FURY, but the turn after you will take significant damage also from a model that shakes off.

If the War Wagon is ARM18, which I think it is (my cards aren't on me). You're looking at ARM20 under KSB. A heavy Jack will likely be able to toast it in a round, especially if it has a damage buff. Infantry, like Doom Reavers could spell the end of it with Weaponmaster POW13s (~27 average damage roll).

If the War Wagon gets killed, you don't get to freeze the enemy.. which could be a bad thing.

A buff like Superiority on a 'Jack with high P+S would pretty much ensure that the War Wagon died before Freezer kicked in.

Which is why I think the best use of it is on Iron Fleshed Infantry.. But that's not something that the War Wagon really has a problem with to begin with (as mentioned above).

[wargrim]

Sorry to sound harsh, but did you read Freezer?

Models become stationary only after they finished their activation. That means that the models are able to charge it, make their attacks and only if the WW survives they become stationary. If a unit charges and the last model kills the WW, no model of the unit will become stationary.

And shooting isn't the solution to it, it makes it just easier. The whole enemy army is able to see it, shoots at DEF10 and only need to damage it, so the CC-troops are able to kill it in one go.



Edit: Soooooooo slow. But one thing to the things Beckman wrote, Catsers/jacks etc. don't need to shake it. The Models become stationary for one round, but since they become stationary during their own turn the round is done the time their next turn begins, so stationary ends before they have to shake.

[DrakkenBlut]

Oh, God, I feel stupid now.

Somehow I read it as after movement...

Back to the drawing board. Thx for help, everyone!

[Beckman]

Edit: Soooooooo slow. But one thing to the things Beckman wrote, Catsers/jacks etc. don't need to shake it. The Models become stationary for one round, but since they become stationary during their own turn the round is done the time their next turn begins, so stationary ends before they have to shake.

I knew this, I was having a stupid moment. One of many

[Beckman]

Oh, God, I feel stupid now.

Somehow I read it as after movement...

Back to the drawing board. Thx for help, everyone!

Yeah... There is a tendancy to want to have Freezer be good. It LOOKS like it should be abusable, but I think the DEV team took every single loophole out of it....

And then gave the Winter Troll RAT4. *Shakes Fist*

[tjohnfranklin]

In a Grim list I'd still like to give it a try. I wouldn't want to base a strategy around a Freezerwagon, but against the right match-up I think you could surprise your opponent by gumming up models he thought were clear. Feat grim, Return Fire the wagon, trample it over part of the infantry lines in an orgy of guaranteed hitting and drop the pounder shell wherever it needs be. Then freezer the wagon with the Ice troll. It's hard to charge the wagon, nothing wants to shoot the wagon, and enemy models next to it (ideally) don't krump it because you haven't decided to charge doomreavers. Then next round activate ice troll first to disintegrate the frozen infantry and clear the wagon out of trouble so it can move again - or just have it trample again (I believe you can choose facing before you trample?)

I mean that relies upon a string of assumptions as long as my arm. But hey, I can borrow or proxy most of the models, so let's try it.

[SOUPlex]

Guys, look at the wagon again. It doesnt have any melee weapons, therefore no melee range, so freezer would not trigger ever.

The only time it has a melee range is DURING IT'S OWN ACTIVATION, thanks to the flashing hooves special rule.

This means that it can't make free strikes either...

[DrakkenBlut]

Now, I messed up the Freezer once, but:


Freezer works when a model ends their activation within 2in of the model that has Freezer on it. Nowhere does it say melee range.

And you're correct about War Wagon.

[PG_joedj]

Models become stationary only after they finished their activation. That means that the models are able to charge it, make their attacks and only if the WW survives they become stationary. If a unit charges and the last model kills the WW, no model of the unit will become stationary.

Are you sure this is true?
Does each model in the unit finish it's activation after their individual charge is complete? Or does the 'activation completed' trigger only after the entire unit has completed all of the charge attacks/run moves?

I would contend that all models in a unit that ended activation within 2" but that did not destroy the Freezer-Wagon would be stationary (unless immune to stationary). Only the final model that destroyed the Freezer-Wagon would not be stationary.

[SOUPlex]

Are you sure this is true?
Does each model in the unit finish it's activation after their individual charge is complete? Or does the 'activation completed' trigger only after the entire unit has completed all of the charge attacks/run moves?

I would contend that all models in a unit that ended activation within 2" but that did not destroy the Freezer-Wagon would be stationary (unless immune to stationary). Only the final model that destroyed the Freezer-Wagon would not be stationary.

You are right about the two inches...that's what I get for never playing the model and trting to work from memory.

You're right here, to. After reading the dang card, it definitely says enemy model, not model/unit. So all models in a unit would move, and then any mosel that attacks it and fails to kill it would become stationary (if they aren't immune to cold, that is)

[The Happy Anarchist]

I tried this on a pMadrak list.

Didn't work like I had hoped, because the enemy just didn't melee with high defense items unless it was a kill turn. Moreover, we can buff Mat so high we really don't need the help hitting from stationary. Add that to the fact that it already has a sweet Quake Gun and autoknockdown melee attacks, and freezer + battleengine is a no go.

We'll see how it works on the Mountain King.

[wargrim]

You're right here, to. After reading the dang card, it definitely says enemy model, not model/unit. So all models in a unit would move, and then any mosel that attacks it and fails to kill it would become stationary (if they aren't immune to cold, that is)

Well, I could be wrong, but to my understanding a unit activates as a whole, each model makes it movement on its own, makes its combat action on its own, then the unit as a whole ends its activation.