Menoth counter?

[Talus Amaranth]

Hey Legion, I've got a problem. One of the players in my crew is really frickin good, and he's got a Renzick list that I just can't seem to beat. (I'm 0-10 against him). Anyone been in or know of a list that might be helpful? My usual casters are Saeryn or Abby. Thanks!

[Obeisance]

You probably need to be more specific. Lists, scenarios, what you're doing, what goes wrong, etc.

[Talus Amaranth]

Usual Scenerio is just caster kill. Medium terrain, usually some buildings and forests. 35 Points his list usually includes:
Reznik
Vigilant
Reckoner
Templar
Min Choir
Min Cinerators
Min Flameguard Cleansers w/Officer
Hierophant
Vassal Mechanik
Vassal

My 35 point list usually is
Saeryn
Angelius
Ravagore
Nephilim Soldier
Min Legionaires
Shredder x2
Shepherd x2
Blackfrost Shard
Spell Martyr

He normally runs first turn, casting either passage or whichever the other spell is that negates shots at his jacks. I try to keep my beasts out of range of his shots at long as possible, not running, but trying to use my greater spd to my advantage trying to get off a charge attack. I haven't been able to get one off successfully yet, with his cleansers tossing AoE's around the field and trying to stay far enough away from his caster that he doesn't cast Engine of Destruction, and wreck my heavies since they may or may not have an upkeep on them. My Legionaries are a decent tar pit against his cinerators, but only for a turn or two. Any ideas or possible changes to the list that I should look into? I've also got Abby, pLylyth, and Kallus as Casters.

[Obeisance]

The primary thing here is you're not playing Steamroller. For the love of god, play scenario. It adds SO much to the game it's insane. Plus it's a gigantic force for balancing the game.

http://privateerpress.com/files/SR2012_Rules_V1.3.pdf

Seriously. The only time I ever play without a scenario is when I'm teaching newbies. Even then after the first few games, add basic scenarios.

Your list isn't what I'd run for Saeyrn. She's a warlock who loves lots of heavy beasts. Melee ones. She feats, they eat face, opponent can't fight back and they eat more face. Two turns of combat. The core of my own 35pt list contains a pair of Scytheans, an Angel, one Shredder for Tenacity and a second to sacrifice for Blight Bringer. Plus a couple Deathstalkers, Martyr and pair of Forsaken.

I think if you simply change your list, you'll do much better against him.

... and play scenario.

[tort]

stupid internet

[tort]

What Obeisance said.

Also don't be afraid of him casting engine of destruction and charging your heavies. If he brings his caster forward he opens up the assassination and casting engine of destruction and using enough focus to kill a heavy reduces the amount he can camp.

[Lachlan the Mad]

How to kill menoth:

STEP 1: Kill the Choir.

STEP 2: What step 2?

[-Sentinel-]

STEP 2: Kill Vassals with their stupid enliven.

Had almost same problem - menoth is the hardest faction for me. Playing pThag, Vayl 1-2, Saeryn - all of them have problems facing menoth.

The problem is who can kill menoth support fast? So our beasts could deal with their heavies without being charged first.

And question to everyone: who is your anti-menoth caster? And how he deal with them?

[jonny p]

Ive had lots of luck with kallus vs menoth. I just keep hitting them in the face until they crack, and use death stalkers and/or the totem hunter to get in behind and kill their (desperately) needed support.

[regleant]

Advantages on both sides. Advantages you have that Menoth can't counter:

- Ravagore launching Continuous Fire AOE's from 15" away (makes for dead Choir / Vassal)
- Rampant use of Pathfinder and Eyeless Sight. Menoth hates terrain, and his list has no chance of granting Pathfinder
- Threat range. Jacks are slow. Cinerators are slow.
- Feat + Flight + Assassination. Are you going for assassination or trying to grind it out?

Saeryn also has a large Control area, so your beasts can spread out and force him to un-brick, or give you the alpha strike. To stop Enliven, use your Legionnaires to surround the jack so it can't run away.

I do question the use of Black Frost Shard, but given Menoth Defense is stupidly low, you get to use them at their best.

What you are missing is high-POW attacks. Ravagore and Angelius cannot destroy 2 heavy Menoth jacks. The Angelius is good for one strong hit. The Ravagore with POW 16's is unhelpful. Bring in a Carnivean / Scythean, and watch the game swing into your favor.

Also hilarious - make rampant use of Slams. The jack will crush the Choir / Vassal / etc. as it falls backwards.

Good luck!

[Talus Amaranth]

What would be a good replacement for the Blackfrost? I've been reading up on them, and not a lot of people think they're worth the points. So for 5 points, what's a good addition?

[Episkopos]

A pair of Strider Deathstalkers or Anyssa Ryvaal.

[regleant]

A pair of Strider Deathstalkers or Anyssa Ryvaal.

Or drop something else and run another Heavy beast.

[PG_Saturated Phat]

this may be a heaps noob question, but why isnt the objective evenly spaced between the two players?

[PG_viggo3000]

To make it harder for the first player tog get to the objective early.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

Main job of the DeathStalkers in my Searyn list is to kill Choir. I alway run them in pairs on a flank.

[vvp]

one of my friends plays legion and has issues with me (i am menoth). i run a 35 point tier Harbinger list and in objective play he just has issues. i tend to spell ward my jacks, keep my choir 3" behind my heavy warjacks (so no aoe in the front to kill them in the back).

my only "unit" is my choir and several paladin solos, otherwise just heavy warjacks (crusader, templar, castigator, avatar)

most of this advice in the thread doesn't apply to our situation but i figure i should ask.

[regleant]

my only "unit" is my choir and several paladin solos, otherwise just heavy warjacks (crusader, templar, castigator, avatar)

most of this advice in the thread doesn't apply to our situation but i figure i should ask.

Actually, my advice above is now even better. The Legion list looked too soft, and given you run all jacks, shows it's even moreso than expected.

Also given it's a Menoth jack-heavy list, Legion should be able to run circles around you and open up all kinds of assassination angles.

[Tanglethorn]

I have to agree with an earlier poser. You dont have enough hitting power in your beasts. Where is the melee?

You need a Scythean. Actually you need 2...

[PG_BloodRath]

The primary thing here is you're not playing Steamroller. For the love of god, play scenario. It adds SO much to the game it's insane. Plus it's a gigantic force for balancing the game.

http://privateerpress.com/files/SR2012_Rules_V1.3.pdf

Seriously. The only time I ever play without a scenario is when I'm teaching newbies. Even then after the first few games, add basic scenarios.

Your list isn't what I'd run for Saeyrn. She's a warlock who loves lots of heavy beasts. Melee ones. She feats, they eat face, opponent can't fight back and they eat more face. Two turns of combat. The core of my own 35pt list contains a pair of Scytheans, an Angel, one Shredder for Tenacity and a second to sacrifice for Blight Bringer. Plus a couple Deathstalkers, Martyr and pair of Forsaken.

I think if you simply change your list, you'll do much better against him.

... and play scenario.

I want to echo this. Obei really hit the nail on the head here. legion has lots of power hitting list that can grind with menoth for fun caster kill. but your not really playing the whole game if your not playing sceanairo. legion really becomes a much better faction when you take sceaniro into account. we have a deep tool box of ways to play, adapt, overcome, and down right win sceaniro victories. i think its one of the biggest definers for this game from any other. when i play caster kill i feel like im playing a just to baby seal club my opponet. in sceaniros im playing the game as much as my opponet. last night we played the restoration sceaniro (one of my new favorits) the game was like a football match of plawing through lines and out manuvering. the game only went to the bottom of turn two but in that time we drew a cheering croud of gamers. it adds life to a game that is already very rich.

[Talus Amaranth]

Alright, so for a noob like myself, using the SR2012 list that was linked above, what would be good scenarios to start with? I don't want to jump too far in with my inexperienced club too fast, you know? We've got a gathering this saturday (Friday for those of you in the US, as I'm currently in Japan), so hopefully I'll be able to post a battle report or two, complete with pics afterwards.

[Tommmmm]

Incursion and Close Quarters (Bit of a non scenario but has Killbox) are simple starters. Diversion is a mix of the two and a good follow on from that.

[Talus Amaranth]

Awesome, thanks. I'll look into those.

[PG_BloodRath]

Step 1
Print the scenario booklet out.

Step 2
flipping through the pages you will notice that the scenario uses diffrent zoned and markers to creat a battle field condition. Because you are taking this responsiblity into your own hands your going to want to build a Steam Roller Kit.

Step 3
For this step you are going to need something to make zones with. Card stock, construction paper or felt are all great choices. You will also need a ruler, protractor, scissors, a pencil a clean work table and about an hour of free time.

Step 4
Using the diminsions your booklet gives you, cut zones, flags, and objective markers to the dimensions required for each sceaniro. This is the most important part, Take your time and accurately measure and cut each peice. Many of the zones and markers repeat them self so this step should be quick but the more time you take the better each zone will look.

Step 4
Now that you have every thing you need to play your ready for a scenairo. In the front of the booklet there is a chart where you can roll your scenario randomly. I feel this is the best approch because its fair and adds a level of mystery and excitement to the game if you roll the sceaniro you just played roll again until you have tried all the scenarios.

Step 5
place your sceaniro on a 4 by 4 table. Follow your own method for trerrain placement taking care to be non biast and even. I like about six peices of verious sizes of terrain however a good random way to determine this number would be 1D3 + 3. Its ok if a little terrain over laps the zone but be careful not to let your terrain block or deny any one the chance to play sceaniro. ( I.e if your playing gators dont put yours or your buddies objective in deep water.)

Step 6
This is the most important step...
Have fun, be a good sportsmen, and play like you got a pair!

Notes: In the future you may want to consider adding digital egg timers, a chess clock, or 3d flags and obj markers. The clocks will help you play faster and give you a competive edge in stream roller 2012. Right now privateer press has an objective marker box on sale made for steamroller. They look nice and are very durable.
I hope this helps you get started. If you have any questions feel free to PM me or message me here.

[Talus Amaranth]

That's for the info. Once I get back to my place I'll be working on the SR kit. Fortunately, I can get all those materials for pretty cheap, so I should be able to make everything in a hurry. Anyone have any other recommendations? I'm open for anything at the moment.