WMH is relatively new in my LGS and I'm really enjoying it for so many reasons but my question is why do you guys play WMH over 40k?
WMH is relatively new in my LGS and I'm really enjoying it for so many reasons but my question is why do you guys play WMH over 40k?
less dice, more strategy, and you don't lose the game before you start playing.
You'll never have someone scream "WAAAAAGH" during a game of WMH.
It was a cheaper barrier to entry for me. I had never played a table top wargame before. I was very interested in the 40K Lore. However, I learned most starting armies were quite a bit more money than I was prepared to spend on a hobby that I had never even seen played. Then PP had their 10th Anniversary Sale and it seemed like a steal in comparison. I painted up the starter box models, found out I enjoy the painting/assembling aspect and then waited 6 months before I found someone to play a game with. I was hooked.
To be completely honest, if I had someone to play 40K with (No FLGS) I would play that also. I do not feel beholden to any one game system/play style.
I'm going to try to reply to this without getting a mod edit. =p
Let me preface this with the fact I played WHFB/40k on and off for 10 years. When Cryx MK2 came out, I sold everything I own and WMH became my only system. I've dabbled in Malifaux and Infinity in the 2 years since I started WMH, but I've found this to be the best system I've played. It is presently the only system I play.
I live in Australia. GW has done nothing but treat Australian customers with contempt. We pay nearly 50% more for the same product on the shelf and can no longer order from UK retailers. Without a doubt, I am an unashamed GW hater.
Price - While not quite a skirmish game, it's still cheaper than 40k to play competitively. But of course, the more lists required the more it raises the price.
People - Due to the fact so many WMH players are disenfranchised WHFB players who left in the 8th edition exodus, coupled with the fact PP doesn't have stores, the player base is more mature and tends to approach the game with competitive and professional attitutde. Love it.
Balance - GW openly states that it's a miniatures company and doesn't give two squirts about game balance. Look at their release schedule. Every army is more ridiculous than the next. PP does everything they can to provide us with a balanced, fair product. Coupled with Steamroller, the power disparity between factions is maybe like 5%, but matchups can skew games either way. There is no flavor of the month army. All the Warmachine, then the Hordes factions all get new toys at once so there's no power creep. Which leads me into..
Builds - Every 40k codex has what, 1-2 competitive builds? Each WMH book has like 7-13 casters/locks and about 90% of them are competitive. Every time you change your caster/lock it very much changes the way your army works. Which changes your matchups. And then you need a strategy against everyone you play against. The diversity of the system keeps me coming back.
Strategy - The game is infinitely more complex than 40k. In 40k, you can just pick up the latest release and smash face. Whereas, in WMH, you can netdeck the latest tourney winner's list and just die and die and die. This game is about your skill and less about the power of the list you bring. This game is won and lost by mm.
Scenario and Assassination - You can be two control points up, grinding the total crap out of your opponent's army.. get complacent and lose. With Assassination always a constant threat option, the game can rapidly swing and you can lose. It really keeps it interesting. Protect the king.
Game Formats - There's a heap of good game formats, too. Highlander, Deathclock, Hardcore, etc.
Ruleset - The rules for WMH are written with accuracy and precision. There is no RAW vs. RAI or endless stream of idiots trying to bend the rules in their favor. When I started playing, it was SUCH a breath of fresh air. The rules are very well written and rarely open to abuse. Plus you have the Infernals who will give proper rulings when requires.
Transport Spam - There are no transports, so there is no transport spam. This was a major selling point to me, because I HATED the fact everything in 40k had to be mechanized to be competitive.
Gunlines - Steamroller scenarios provides a major balancing factor. Steamroller 2012 heavily favors aggressive play, which punishes the crap out of gunlines. This means that most lists have mid range to no shooting. I hate playing against gunlines and I'm happy to see they suck in this system.
Prizes - In all the time I played 40k/WHFB, there was never any kind of prize apart from trophies. Every WMH tournament ran in my city has been backed by several gaming stores. We've often had more prizes to give out than we've had people.. or everyone has gotten something just for coming. Over the two years I've played, I've probably won about $500-600 worth of stock and vouchers. And some shiny trophies. =D
Dice - Oh god. You don't roll buckets of dice. I hated that about 40k/WHFB. In any game, I use a total of 5D6. 4 if I have weapon masters charging (etc), and an extra D6 of a different color to roll location.
So yeah. I'm a 10+ year gaming veteran and WMH is literally the best system I have ever played. The infinite complexity, competitive and fair nature of the game, coupled with an incredibly supportive worldwide community- makes this game awesome.
Last edited by Obeisance; 05-18-2012 at 05:50 PM.
I'm glad I am not the only one that feels like WMH is a better system and I really feel like PP is more about their players with so much support IE bits direct from the company, keeping the cost of the game from going to ludicrous levels. I have only been playing since march but already am hooked and can't wait till warmachine weekend! Even though we have no invite tournies down here I'm going to go for all the other ones I can play in! But thanks for all the responses and this is yet another reason I like WMH because I can post a question like this and people aren't raging "elitest" jerks.
I got tired of Yahtzee and wanted to start playing chess.
Shred the Gnar(ls)!
In no particular order:
- Cheaper (to be precise, the models cost about the same, but you can run much smaller armies and have the game be fun -- I love my three-model 15pt army)
- Consistent support: No obsolete seven-year-old codexes (righteous necron rage)
- Better balance: No f*cking Blood Angels
- 2d6: The probability falls on a bell curve, which is cooler, and I love the additional die system
- All of the armies fit into the metagame (I'm sorry, but the Dark Eldar just don't work)
- More interesting strategy/magic system
- More consistent ruleset
- Cards instead of codexes; no flipping through books every three seconds
- Company's business model is not based on screwing over the customers
- Probably more, but I'm too lazy to think of them
Actually, that's another thing.
I actually feel like PP respects it's customer base.
At Adepticon, last year I think. PP gave away 200 battle boxes to get new players interested. They cost about 50$AU each. I can't imagine GW giving away $2000 worth of stock ever.
i have played 40k for about 13-14 years, and the rules for the game just get worse and worse. but the rules for warmachine are so well done that it actually makes me feel sad for people who play 40k, because they don't realize how good the world of miniature gaming can be. in 40k, every new codex will make all your old good models bad, and all your old bad models good and thus force you to buy a completely new army every book(which is just utterly annoying). warmachine never does that from book to book. if you have a favorite unit, you can easily continue using them without fear after a new book has come out. in fact, there's so much wrong with the 40k game system that i can't even go into it without becoming rude or making myself angry.
also, warmachine actually has an interesting ongoing story. in 40k, the story doesn't matter. in 40k you have battles that have hundreds of years between them and thousands of light years worth of space between planets where the different story lines take place. so it gets to a point where literally nothing that happens in the plot actually matters towards the universe. in the almost 15 years' worth of following 40k, the story hasn't changed(other than retcons). everything just stays the same and nothing ever happens. even the introduction of new playable races (the tau) has no impact on the universe since they're just a drop in the infinitely large ocean of the 40k universe.
Last edited by Madhiggins; 05-18-2012 at 07:27 PM.
Think about it. Andy Chambers, Rick Priestley, Tuomas Pirinen and Alessio Cavatore among many others have left GW.
Rick Priestley? The man who INVENTED 40K and WHFB has left GW? I think that speaks for itself.
I still own 2000 points worth of Plague Marines but I have no intention or desire to field them in a looong time.
Two things I personally consider huge pluses are an increased emphasis on positioning your models intelligently and smaller threat ranges. Both of these things work hand in hand to make board position one of the most important parts of the game. Without 48" range on your guns you have to care about where your models are, which makes the 180 degree arcs and actually moving a unit or your beatsticks into places where they can threaten now or in the future a huge bonus. I hated watching a model move somewhat centrally and just sit there and be able to tag any part of the board when I played 40k. Now I can lose just by moving poorly. It's not just all about how well I roll my dice.
I have both gotten into and out of 40k in the last 2 years... and have played mkI (then gotten out) and mkII I greatly prefer my trolls for many of the reasons listed above
40k is to Warmachine, as Yahtzee is to Chess.
I'd totally sig that on my local forum, but it'd make a lot of fanboys mad. I already have a reputation as a GW hater / PP promoter. Badmouthing someone's game isn't generally a great way to get people to give your game a chance.
Probably why I'm not a Press Ganger (that and we have 3).
I played 40k for 20 some years as well. First edition of it.
I always knew they redid rules only to sell models that were not selling. Before wmh what other game would still be around in a year to invest in?
Frankly wmh is a better game. But the most important difference is that its a game company that sells models, not a model company that sells a game.
Also my local game store was sent replacement cards for their WMH stuff when mark ii came out, they sold a cheap deck to replace your old cards, that alone shows massive concern for the players over the bottom line.
Last edited by nerdkingdan; 05-19-2012 at 06:45 AM.
Hah, I remember referencing dice buckets. While I never actually saw full-fledged buckets we usually used the term when Orks were shooting those d6 shots per gun dudes or Guard was doing that First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! thing.
To the OP's question, 40k is pretty much ProbabilityHammer. You may need 5s to hit, and 5s to wound, and he saves on 3s, but if you're throwing out several dozen dice at him he's going to die. You simply roll so many dice that regardless of the individual odds of success you'll succeed based on sheer numbers. It'd be like if Luke Skywalker had 50 other X-Wings all fire their proton torpedoes together with him at the Death Star's thermal exhaust port; he doesn't really need the Force at that point.
Originally Posted by Klebert L. Hall
Well. Probability Hammer doesn't really work. We use basic probability all the time. Like when you're calculating hits/average damage. 1D6=3.5.
Buckethammer is more appropriate.
This 120 D6 need 4+ which should result in 60 hits.
This 60 hits need 4+ to wound, resulting in 30 wounds.
Any of the 3.6 billion space marines save 3+, resulting in an average of 10 wounds.
... which you will then apply, wherever you like, due to terrible wound allocation rules.
Originally Posted by PPS_ Will about Woldwrath
I was really looking forward to dropping some lightning storm AOEs at range and enjoying the look on my opponent's face when I placed a AOE 4 template on his model after hitting it in melee and telling him everything under that template is now knocked down!
Obeisance pretty much summed up my feelings on this topic. I came from WHFB, and found myself frustrated that GW treats their customers like so many piles of potential cash. Once I got my hands on the WM/H battle system, it was all over. I always enjoyed the fluff and miniatures for WHFB, but PP has the best system I have ever played in a tabletop game.
Quite the thread I started lol GW is headed down they slippery slope known as greed price hikes every six months to pay for their garbage fine cast models me thinks not good sirs. It costs about the same for an hg and battle box that it has to get myself to a fully competative 35pt list. Its sad really because the models GW makes are really well done just not justifiable. And with saying that games like this one will drive into first place.
I'll wanted to join in on the GW hate, but Obeisance said everything that I was going to. So, what Obeisance said in post #6.
To preface, I only started playing Warhammer 40k in Dec 2010 and the lack of consistent rules annoyed the crap out of me. It seems that the game changed depending on who I was facing in that given day. I can even point to current FAQ releases that contradict each other!!
So if GW isn't willing to support their own game, then I'm not willing to support them. Simple enough.
Menoth: 215 pts.
Legion: 185 pts.
Mercs: 16 pts.
Minions: 65 pts.
Models I've actually painted myself: 7
My main reason for playing warmachine over warhammer is that all my friends switched
I really like warmachine and hordes rules, more than I ever did the warhammer ones BUT, and its a big but, I prefer the lore of warhammer and I much prefer gw models over pp models. Chaos was the faction with the best lore in any setting ever (especially the older versions of chaos, not so much the new and clean version). Now if they had the old chaos feel + gw models but with pp rules I would be one happy nurgling!
Changing edition is not in itself a bad thing. WM/H obviously looked at 40k & designed away issues with that game system. But Mk1 became very unwieldy & MK2 is a much better game. I am not sure 40k shows the same qualitative improvements as I only really played 3rd ed.
I know the game looks dumb to me though with rows of tanks parked wheel hub to wheel hub glaring at one another. If I wanted that much armour I would play 6mm ( I loved epic in the early 90s).
Anyway WM/H has the best set of rules of any miniatures game I have played in the last 30 years. As gamer first that is what drives me.
I have no idea of PP's edition policy yet. But GW changes edition in quick succession without me as a gamer seeing any need for it. The games are complicated (as opposed to complex, which would be a good thing), unbalanced and have unclear rules. If the new editions changed that and cleared stuff up, I'd not mind them. But they never do. They continue to work with codex books from the earlier edition or even that before, which immediately creates the same problems again. And I have played 40k for 20 years, WHFB for 14. No edition was ever an improvement, it was always just a change to a different set of rules with the exact same problems.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both games, else I wouldn't have played them for so long. But new editions from GW have always been an obvious money-making move and little else. I'd happily still play 40K second edition today. I'm actually ganging up with a few friends to try and track down the few books from 2nd that I don't own anymore so we can go back to that edition instead of spending tons of cash on the new 3000-point standard game size armies we expect to need in 6th.
One thing that makes it feel as though GW changed especially quickly is that I play both of their main games and the interval between new editions is 2 years that way. It may be 4 years between two editions of the same game, but roughly every 2 years for the last 12 or 14 years I bought a new Big Red or Black Book. Don't quote me on it, I haven't checked the facts. It just feels that way, and I find it very annoying. That is one of the two main reasons I went looking for something new and wound up here. The other reason is codex creep. I was firmly in the "You can beat every army, it just looks as though the new one was extra hard because we don't know its weaknesses yet!" camp since the 90ies, telling people not to overreact. I even held to that when the Blood Angels were released. But the Grey Knight codex is just ridiculous. A troops unit that has more than double the amount of both fire power and close combat effectiveness for the same points than the already good tactical squad from C:SM? And for anyone not familiar with these units or rules, that isn't an interpretation: tac squads have bolters, which can fire once at long range, or twice at short and forego close combat, Grey Knight strike squads have storm bolters which can always fire twice and assault into close combat thereafter. The latter also have weapons that always ignore armour of any kind, the former haven't. The latter cost almost the same points (170 to 200)
So much for game balance. And in 40k, there are not nearly as many synergies to be had as in WMH. So it isn't a matter of the seemingly worse off guys having better buffs somewhere else in the army. They haven't.
GW games, currently, are getting worse rather than better. I started collecting WM because it will probably still be a long time before PP make the same mistake GW has been making for at least a decade.
The reasons I play WMH over GW stuff is as follows:
- GW have changed too much from what they were like in the early 90s.
- It seems GW have yearly price increases of 10%
- GW power creep to a scale that an army you have invested many hours in and several hundred pounds is obsolete when a new release comes out.
- You can lose a game before it has even started
- Rules which are not structured. PP rules are like a lawyer has gone through them, GWs are like they were wrote by ten different people and they don?t link up. Dealing with contracts every day the wording of PPs stuff is fantastic, they are very rarely open to interpretation.
- PP is more structured towards tournament play
"The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing"
2010 Cryx, 2011 Khador, 2012 Menoth, 2013 Legion of Everblight
Everything happens for a reason, but sometimes things happen because you're stupid and make bad decisions
GW's problem isn't edition cycling. Rules get updated. It happens.
The problem is the constant stream of re-releasing codexes/army books. The power creep cycle. With each book more blatantly powerful than it's previous incarnation to sell more models. Model company that just happens to have a game system. Sales first, game balance.. they don't care. Whatever sells. Well, that and they can't write a decent set of rules.
I'm curious to see how they'll handle the next version of 40k. Will they learn from the mistake that was WHFB 8th? Or will they continue to tread down the path that leads to a second exodus?
The best thing to happen to tabletop gaming ever, was WHFB 8th. GW had such a stranglehold on the market. All people ever played was 40k/WHFB. And then suddenly everyone was looking for a new fix. I've never seen such gaming diversity in my local scene as we have today. Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, you name it. Due to the exodus, Warmahordes got the kick it needed to become super popular worldwide.
I'm sorta hoping GW screw up again so we can assimilate the 40k community.
My biggest problem with 40k is the release cycle. Out of all the armies, only 3-4 get updated a year. When you have as many army factions as you do in 40k that leaves a lot of armies with out dated rules and mechanics.
Also, the rules are very poorly written, but if you get along with your player base and play just for fun I wouldnt let this bother me too much.
What does bother me is GW's behavior. Obnoxious to hell I say. They are extremely guarded, out of touch with their player base, failure to update FAQs in a timely manner and no access to Rules Forums. The price increases are out of line with the rest of the industry and they tend to treat 3rd party retailers with disdain since they came out with their own stores.
They are losing their spot as the Top Guns of the gaming industry and Im glad I bailed on their system.
If GW 6th ed 40k doesn't significantly shake up the game mechanics and make it more interactive and precise, I think Dust:Warfare is really setting up to take over as the large-scale gunline skirmish game.
I played 40k since the beginning and refused to try anything else. A good friend of mine opened a LGS and asked me to try Warmachine so he could practice a demo game (game seemed cool but I was a 40k player).
That weekend I played in a 1500pt turney (first one since the latest set of rules) I brought my fluffy drop list and my first gave was against a space Orc player who brought a 179 boyz. I got to play my second turn no reserves came on and time ran out. I lost to a pt denial army because of time. Just stupid. I wiped out over half and lost because of a reserves roll.
Bought the starter Menoth box that day and haven't looked back. Sold off 25years of painted 40k armies.
Forget Caster Assassination. Grind Them Out and Make Them Quit.
to put it in the simpliest way
-the game is balanced
-costs way less than any gw game (except maybe for mordheim and the other skirmish ones but no one plays them anyways)
-the models are better (this can be subjective but generally speaking i find them sculpted in a better quality)
-the rules are fair and not intricate to the point to need a lawyer at tournies
-gw has decided to kill whfb, soon we'll discover if the same will happend to 40k but i assume they want the standard army to cost 700+euros
-needs less space (48"x48" is easier to fit than 72"x48")
-here even if you have your army chosen at random you can smash the face of a less skilled player (ok there are the extremes but usually this stands)
-i don't need a truck to take my army around
-gw hates his customers so why i shouldn't hate them as an ex customer?
-the fact that if you don't have one of the newest 3 armies you don't stand a chance against one who has
these are my opinions, the only thing i save of gw are their paints, those work as intended
I still have all the eldar codices since the second edition one and my army of eldars in their case
I'm quite frankly amazed that no one has mentioned Finetrash yet. Oh, yeah, by the way, due to the mounting cost of pewter, we're gonna start making our blister pack minis in a much cheaper to produce, much lower-quality material.
Players: "So it's gonna be cheaper, right?"
GW: "@%$# No! They're gonna increase in price by at least 15%, maybe more!"
One thing I can say about the 40K rules; they're poorly-written and full of ambiguities, and it's hellishly easy to find exploits with certain armies, but this doesn't matter because the f*cking Spess Marehns always pound you into the ground anyway.