Why WMH over WH40k?

[jackbnimble218]

And to think that these are the posts just from the Legion community and anyone else who wandered in here. Post in other faction communities for even more posts on how PP is better than GW. So Glad I started with WM/H and never spent a dime on WHFB/40K.

[Obeisance]

The one advantage I feel that GW has, is models. Better sculpts, better technique and overall model quality. But in comparison, PP has only been around a fraction of the time GW has. PP has already learned from GW's mistakes.

Given time, I'm sure the model quality will be the same.

Finecast, however, meh. I've not even handled a model by GW in 2 years.

[Skylifter]

While I do agree that model quality matters to me - for example, Doom Reavers: awesome rules, ugly models, so I probably won't use them - the actual design of the models is more important. So a cool model of a lesser casting quality is still better than a boring model of a higher casting quality. And lately, GW's model lines start becoming somehow boring. I cannot even explain why. The Dark Eldar, for example: incredible casting quality and model detail, but somehow... they don't cut it. Same again with the Necrons. Maybe it's a matter of taste, but even then that goes to show: casting quality isn't everything.

[CptDuene]

GW basic model-design is based on skulls, spikes and gems, maybe that's why you are so bored.

I don't like everything PP throws at us, but they have refreshing new ideas.

[Rampaging Elk]

The one advantage I feel that GW has, is models. Better sculpts, better technique and overall model quality. But in comparison, PP has only been around a fraction of the time GW has. PP has already learned from GW's mistakes.

Given time, I'm sure the model quality will be the same.

Finecast, however, meh. I've not even handled a model by GW in 2 years.

Actually, the models are one of the biggest reasons I never wanted to play a GW game. I don't like the way they look. They all look.... I don't know, waxy? Plasticy? Every single GW promo piece of art I've seen has been just ugly. And, as CptDuene said, too many skulls, spikes and gems. All the factions and models just look so unbelievably bland and cheap or silly and absurd. PP models do a much better job of looking cool without being ostentatious or ridiculous in how much crap is thrown on one model.

I never played 40k or WHFB, but I've never had the desire to. When I started looking at War Machine and Hordes, the story and models of the Legion pieces pulled me in instantly. When I found out the rules and company were so great, I was even more interested. I hated the color scheme, but it was easy to fix with my own models. When I was looking for a second faction to play, the Retribution jacks, Sentinels, casters and models like the Thane sucked me in. My army feels unique not just because of my paint job but because of the models themselves. Every 40k army looks the same to me except for the Tyrannids... but they look like cheap imitations of Xenomorphs. But my Legion and Retribution feel different and unique, and I LOVE showing them off.

[Anosse]

My army feels unique not just because of my paint job but because of the models themselves. Every 40k army looks the same to me except for the Tyrannids... but they look like cheap imitations of Xenomorphs. But my Legion and Retribution feel different and unique, and I LOVE showing them off.

Honestly Tyranids look rather like Everblight in a lot of places (compare the Zoanthropes head to a Raek)

[Hansel]

At Adepticon, last year I think. PP gave away 200 battle boxes to get new players interested. They cost about 50$AU each. I can't imagine GW giving away $2000 worth of stock ever.

Actually, it's $10,000! That's ridiculous!

[Hansel]

GW's problem isn't edition cycling. Rules get updated. It happens.

The problem is the constant stream of re-releasing codexes/army books. The power creep cycle. With each book more blatantly powerful than it's previous incarnation to sell more models. Model company that just happens to have a game system. Sales first, game balance.. they don't care. Whatever sells. Well, that and they can't write a decent set of rules.

It's also that bass-ackwards thing they do where they write a new edition, but don't update all of the armies for that edition. You know what that's called? I don't know either, but it's not called a new edition. They should actually write a NEW EDITION instead of this weird thing where they write new general rules and sometimes a new edition comes along before all of the codexes have been released.

Honestly Tyranids look rather like Everblight in a lot of places (compare the Zoanthropes head to a Raek)

Tyranids are definitely based on Xenomorphs, and Legion is definitely based on Tyranids. It's so obvious.

HOWEVER, that doesn't matter one whit to me. I think the Legion models blow the Tyranid ones out of the water. Same idea, different execution.

[S8istPup]

The biggest reason I joined WMH is that I was looking for a mini wargame to play and had seen this mentioned on Ctrlaltdel-online. And it seemed less popular than the GW games.

[Obeisance]

Actually, it's $10,000! That's ridiculous!

I even used a calculator to make sure I got that right and didn't look like an idiot!

Clearly I calculated it, did something else, then forgot. Like an idiot. =p

[Obeisance]

Tyranids are definitely based on Xenomorphs, and Legion is definitely based on Tyranids. It's so obvious.

They could have both been based on the work of Giger.

[MagnustheJust]

$40k was a fun game, and I still love the Orks. But after needing newer and more expensive rule and army books for the third time, it got old. That and having to redo nearly half my army each time just... well, it got tiresome. I even ran tournies for almost 5 years. But $40k was always lacking something for me... It's the same reason I dropped Magic the Gathering in favor of Vampire : The Eternal Struggle for ccg's.

I honestly wish I had started playing Warmachine earlier than I did...

You'll never have someone scream "WAAAAAGH" during a game of WMH.

Heh!! Obviously never played me...

Once a Greenskin, always a Greenskin.

[sterling319]

And apparently, sometime during the next two weeks, GW is going to post a price increase of approximately another 15% across the board.

[MagnustheJust]

And apparently, sometime during the next two weeks, GW is going to post a price increase of approximately another 15% across the board.

Another reason why I stopped playing $401k...

[Obeisance]

And apparently, sometime during the next two weeks, GW is going to post a price increase of approximately another 15% across the board.

Where did you hear this? I want to wave it in the face of local fanboys.

[MagnustheJust]

Where did you hear this? I want to wave it in the face of local fanboys.

Umm... Every June for the last decade Gouged Wallet has done a price increase.

[Obeisance]

Ah. Of course.

It's been so long since I've paid attention to whatever GW is doing I forgot.

[Talus Amaranth]

For me, it was a simple matter of Fluff. And Price....and rules. As pretty much everyone above has explained.

Going in reverse order (and forgive me if I **** any of this up, I'm still a bit of a noob), the rulesets are so vague for a game of 40K that I'm constantly asking the other players questions. It's like as soon as I found out my army (CSM, Noise Marines almost exclusively) couldn't do one specific thing (I don't remember exactly what it was) I was expecting no one to be able to do something like that.... of course, my local Blood Angels player did exactly what I wasn't expecting, and when I was like "*** bro?" he showed me that he had a weird rule that allowed him to do it. Then, the whole army outfitting thing, while simple enough, is massively expansive and it's hard to remember which guy has an extra close combat attack because of a bolt pistol, or who had extra attacks because of their ruleset. For someone like me who likes clear-cut rules, 40K is a fracking nightmare. WMH has clear cut rules (love the 'cannot' overrules the 'must' setup, ie, knockdown and serpentine), which means that there's no trying to remember which armies have which rules that other armies should be able to do, but can't for one reason or another.

As far as Price goes, OMFG. I'm not the worlds richest guy by a long shot. Working on a government paycheck (US Marine, Semper Fi!), and supporting a family, spending egregious amounts of money on an army I play mostly for fluff purposes poses almost no interest for me in tournament play. Especially with how unbalanced the game can be. And this is coming from someone who noticed how OP Space Marines can be. I like the idea that each army is not only balanced by Player ability *wishing I was as good as Neutralyze*, but the armies are all balanced almost equally, and that can get balanced out by the scenerio that you're playing. It's all about what you know about your army, your opponents army, and tactics. Not who's got the most cheezy army setup.

Fluff. I'm a huge nut for dragons, hence the reason that I'm playing Legion. The models look awesome, and they're a great deal of fun to field on looks alone. When I introduced them to the club (everyone else plays a WM faction), I got a lot of people saying 'Ouch, those look mean.' To which I replied "Yeah, they are!" I proceded to show them.... albeit without the same effect as a lot of the veteran legion players. Like I said, I'm still a noob. But the whole idea behind Everblight himself, and how his legion works.... the storywriting was simply amazing to me. While the 40K fluff can be interesting, it just doesn't grip my attention the same way that Hordes does. Then again, maybe I'm just to picky....

Or I really, really love dragons.

[Talus Amaranth]

Double post

[Episkopos]

I think the community in both cyberspace and meatspace were what convinced me to play Hordes.

Warhammer players seem to have Cygnar levels of "woe is me" but across all the factions and whenever I requested to be taught, the usual response was "can't be arsed" or "don't try to learn that faction, they're terrible".

Warmachine / Hordes players were much more willing to teach, discuss strategies, and in general have a good time.

[Bodiless]

I have to say, I've never understood the Either-Or, Us-and-Them attitude of the gaming community. I play both games. I like both games. I am prepping for a 2k tournament with my Tyranids, and finishing up a Journeyman League with the Cryx army I picked up a while back. Many of the people at our FLGS play both games (WHFB too), and we go through cycles where most people are coming in for one game or the other.

The systems are different, the worlds are different, I enjoy them both for different reasons and more or less as the mood strikes me.

Honestly threads like this tend to read "**** you Vanilla, CHOCOLATE FOR LIFE!!!" to me...

[aosol]

Because I hate doing homework in order to find out what I'm going play that day.

[Episkopos]

I'm guessing most people have the funds to play multiple minis games.

[Shogran]

I started to play GW games in about 1990 or there about's, played for a couple of years, then stopped for a year or so, then started to play again or so on. I liked the models, I liked the game, but as time went on I found it was not how you played, as much as how much you spent on it. The fluff was great but now it is just rewritten every time the want to do something new, every time they redo a army half the models you have can't be used or you have to get something new and add to units, it's become less about making a game and more about making money, yes I know every company needs to make money, but at least PP care about the products they produce.

Apocalypse killed 40k for me, designed to make you spend more, but the games lasted a turn, first person to go won, as the other player did not have enough models left to fight back with.

GW keeps redoing to rules of there games changing them to almost new games, PP really have just updated the rules so they run better and can't be abused by people who thinking winning is everything.

I will say GW plastics are better than the PP version, how every it has taken them a very long time to get them to where they are now, and given time PP will have a produce that will be a lot better than GW .

I have a number of friends who have worked for GW and in the end they hated it, they all now play WMH. I once went into my local store after going into another gaming store and was asked what I had been doing, I said I had been out got some models for another game system, at which time I was asked but the staff there what I had, so I showed the model I had got and I was told how grate the model looked. I had another local shop where if you even said the name Warmachine you would get banned from the store, the 2 shops where in Birmingham and Worcester in the UK.

They could have both been based on the work of Giger.

There first start box where they used nids got them in a lot of trouble as they looked almost the same as xenomorphs from aliens, they got redone quite quicky lol.

LOTR cost GW a lot of money, there was also a staff member got fired over a coveted model, for the fist 2 or 3 years you could not mix LOTR models with any of there other games, the staff member cut the head of Boromir and put it on a guards man to make Sharp.

PP is chess, GW is a colouring book.

[bodare]

I'm sorta hoping GW screw up again so we can assimilate the 40k community.

I played 40K before switching to WMH. Most my friends did too, some played both 40K and WHFB. I played Tau, one friend Necron, and another friend had Sisters of Battle.

Imagine the oh-so-fun time after the release of Blood Angels codex. We still hung in there for a while, then came the SoB 'codex' in White Dwarf. Bye-bye GW, thanks for the expensive although light entertainment...

[Mr-Furious]

I used to work for GW back in the late 90's. When I started with the company the game was in a decent state and none of the armies (talking WHFB here) really over powered others terribly. I found some of the rules were kind of screwy however. Like a ward save wasn't a special save, so you could technically have 2 unpreventable saves plus an armor save even though the rules stated you could not. Really quirky stuff like that showed up every now and then. Nowadays it's everywhere.

As few people have mentioned already, in 40k most space marine armies are ridiculous. This is because the higher ups in the company have a hard on for them. They even fashioned their staff training guide to read like you're being indoctridated into a marine chapter. It felt like joining a cult almost.

Everything that's being said in this thread about the cost of the the two games to new players, the rules system being much clearer for WM/H I have to agree with. I personally think that the PP pewter models are MUCH better sculpted than GW. The level of detail on most of the Cryx models is incredible. Even the plastic models are great. I was looking at some plastic beastmen models I have from my WHFB army and was shocked at how poor the detail is compared to my plastic Cryx jacks. The one thing I do prefer about the GW plastic models is the type of plastic used since I find with my PP plastic kits that it's a nightmare to clean them if I get a model with a lot of mold lines.

Anyway, after dealing with GW price hikes year after year, I'm done.. I'm having way more fun with Warmachine than I ever did playing 40k.

[Shogran]

Well the only thing I find that GW does well is scenery.

[Obeisance]

This is because the higher ups in the company have a hard on for them. They even fashioned their staff training guide to read like you're being indoctridated into a marine chapter. It felt like joining a cult almost.

There's a reason for that. 40k Space Marine sales (last I looked) made up over half their profit. We're talking more than the entire WHFB range put together.

[und_ed]

It's an interesting question, and I imagine many have very different reasons.

First let me state I'm applying the OP's question to both GW games, being a 10+ years WHFB veteran, but not playing WH40K at all.

Let's start off with my most contentious claim: I think WHFB is by far a superior game system to WM/H. The positional elements of the game make it a deeper and more tactical game, and for me more satisfying.

So why do I play WM/H then? (I play both still, loving both games)
- MUCH better customer support from PP. Like, so far apart it's almost criminal to compare them.
- Great game balance, and all that implies. This one is huge - because GW does an atrocious job of balancing their various army books, and their release schedule is such that armies become badly outdated, the community often takes it upon itself to try "correct" this problem. This "correcting" comes in the form of social bullying (Telling players that list they brought was "cheesy" or "beardy" - effectively accusing players of unsportsmanlike behaviour for playing their favourite toys), awful Tourney Composition rules, and other similar abominations. Being completely free of this was a breath of fresh air.
- Fun, very different playstyle.
- Cool minis (most of them. The eDeneghra model is still a crime that should be punishable by public flogging)

-und_ed

[Mrfantastical]

I had this talk with a friend who is a diehard GW fanboy, and he raised a few interesting points in favor of GW stuff:

1) Large scale battles - 40K can play large games with over a 100+ models on the board very easily. I know that WMH can play games of this size, but the game will slow down considerably. There are even rules for Apocalypse which will streamline the rules even more for even more models on the board. I personally don't care for Apocalypse because you have to have the right people playing or the game becomes hours and hours of teeth pulling misery. The point being WMH doesn't have a way to streamline rules when adding more models, so large games will take a long time.
2) Mechanized combat - it's both a good and bad thing. But if you like the idea of tanks/planes 40K can do it, while WMH can't (unless you count Battle engines).
3) Fluff - I'm not a fluff guy, but he was and I had no answer for 20 years worth of fluff via codex?s/novels. Sure WMH has an on going story in every faction book & new book. However no novels is hard to combat
4) Buckets of Dice - Say what you will, rolling buckets of dice can be exciting.
5) Price (if you play Space Marines or one of the equivalents) - To balance everything up I told him that a 35 point game in WMH is around 1500 points in 40K. I may be wrong, but both games to me feel as though they take the same amount of time, and have enough points to for players to have both tactics & synergy. If anyone disagrees please let me know. We both compared numbers on how much it'd cost for a standard take all comers list. I picked Khador (only because this is the faction I play), and he chose Space Marines. And when we compared cost, his cost to play was cheaper (only by about $30). Now keep this in mind, Khador is not a cheap army if you run infantry spam, and Space Marines is a low model count army that you can pick up models for pretty cheap through a number of sources. So the fact that I compared a rather high model count (which means more expensive), to a low model count (less expensive) army and the price difference was only $30 shows me at least that WMH is better in the long run.
6) More people play GW then WMH - I don't live in the same town that he does, so where he lives no one plays WMH in his local community. Also his argument was that he can go almost anywhere and find 40K players. To find WMH players you have to either go look for or develop them (which he didn't have the time for).
7) No generic Leaders - Like WMH, in 40K you can take named characters, but you can also take generic HQ to keep costs down. Well since he's a fluff nut, he likes the idea of creating his own Captain So-n-So and moding the model.

[Obeisance]

I think..

1) Size - If you want to spend 3 days playing a game, go ahead.
2) Mechanized Combat - It is the constant theme for competitive in 40k. There is little to no choice.
3) Fluff - They change it whenever they want to release new things.
4) Dice - Handling buckets of dice is shiny for a while, then it just gets tedious.
5) Price - One 40k army is sorta on par with a two list tournament force, depending on the factions/style involved. Models cost similar, we just need far less and don't have to fork out for transports.
6) More players - There's a lot of 40k and WMH in my area. I never have problems selling games and our tournaments always see good numbers. More players is irrelevant. The big thing here for me is that there is next to no children playing WMH. I like going to a tournament and not playing a 12yo and have to be super nice about crushing him.
7) No generic leaders - There's no such thing as "keeping the points down" on HQ in this system. Originally I hatehatehated the idea of the casters/locks being all characters, because I came from 40k/WHFB and I consequently hated special characters. Now charaters to me, just dictate play style of my opponent's army.

People who want to write their own army backgrounds and stories are welcome to play 40k. =p

[Slice]

I still play both.

Picked up WM/H with MK2 for a "quick game when there isn't much time" alternative and ended up playing 9 out of 10 games WM/H and only 1 40k.

Why i prefer it is simply said tactics. It does not come down to rolling the most dice (especially against spam armies).

Interestingly i nowadays only play 2000+ and up for 40k when before i started WM/H it were more like 1250 - 1500

[brilder]

Less models, no trays.

The table looks like it might actually be a snapshot of a battle, instead of some figure trays bumping eachother.

[Beckman]

I have but one point to make.

Privateer Press has yet to remake the rules and NERF ALL YOUR GOOD MODELS INTO USELESSNESS, then proceed to BUFF THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF YOUR USELESS STUFF. Just to make a buck. All in all, after MKII happened MOST models were MORE fair, not less fair.

That is the biggest difference to me. GW MAKES YOUR CURRENT ARMY USELESS when they put out new stuff. Requires you to REPRESENT WEAPONS ON YOUR MODELS, then makes your previous choices BAD OR ILLEGAL. Oh well, guess you need new models...

EDIT: Oh yeah, that and their game is all about buckets of dice and spamming troop choices in WH40k, and WHFB took all the skill out of the game with random charges, and irresistible force / miscast becoming more likely in the current edition with stupidly powerful spells. "Oh well, guess I'll try for miscast and shoot purple sun over your whole army. Because that's fair."

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

so... why is this in the legion forum?

[Episkopos]

'Cuz were the least doom and gloom.
Seriously, some of us have pink and purple models unironically.

[Hansel]

I had this talk with a friend who is a diehard GW fanboy, and he raised a few interesting points in favor of GW stuff:

1) Large scale battles - 40K can play large games with over a 100+ models on the board very easily. I know that WMH can play games of this size, but the game will slow down considerably. There are even rules for Apocalypse which will streamline the rules even more for even more models on the board. I personally don't care for Apocalypse because you have to have the right people playing or the game becomes hours and hours of teeth pulling misery. The point being WMH doesn't have a way to streamline rules when adding more models, so large games will take a long time.

This is really a matter of taste, and not a "point in favor" of any game. I, for one, don't WANT to play a game with 100+ models. Jesus! Think of all the painting!

[Obeisance]

I had a thought about the non-tactical nature of 40k/WHFB.

Games Workshop targets children. The ideal customer is a child, relying on the parent's income to make purchases. So the target marked is like, 10-14 year olds, or that sort of ball park.

Ergo, the rulesets are written for the target marked. They're games aimed at children.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

Sounds like a whole lot of haterade to me.

[Malorian]

Warmachine > Fantasy > 40k

Order of activation caster-kill race is more tactical then large blocks being pushed towards each other while 6 dicing spells which is more tactical than pew pew.

That's my opinion anyway, and I play all three systems.