Circle and the Deathclock

[Dragonowar]

Fellow druids,
I have the privilege of being able to attend Origins ( http://originsgamefair.com/ ) on jun 1-2 and I plan to attend the two steamroller events listed for saturday (35 pt and 50pt steamrollers).

However, I have not played in awhile and I have never played with deathclock rules so I was hoping I could get a bit of info from the forumites to help me prepare a bit. Given my long absence I dont' figure on winning the events but I should have lots of fun

My questions are pretty simple,

What are some of the current pain in the rear opponents/lists that I am likely to see in deathclock?

as an example, I have heard of the winterguard deathstar being used to simply run you out of time trying to kill them all. What other ones are out there that circle might have particular trouble with?

Are there any scenarios that really hose circle in general? I have looked over them and I didn't see any that stood out. Defending various objectives will probably be a little harder on us but I don't think thats insurmountable.

Any new units/models that are just plain a pain in the butt? I picked up both battle engine books but didn't see anything truly horrible. Have I missed anything?

Any tactics that I should watch out for? for example they ask lots of questions on my clock to run the time down.

Hopefully a little knowledge will help light the way.

D-

[djinni]

What are some of the current pain in the rear opponents/lists that I am likely to see in deathclock?

That all depends upon the tournament and the atmosphere of the event you are attending, you won't really know how good or bad the individuals are until you actually show up.

as an example, I have heard of the winterguard deathstar being used to simply run you out of time trying to kill them all. What other ones are out there that circle might have particular trouble with?

it is no more difficult to deal with then any other timing event, the unsportsmanlike strategy you are probably overhearing is that opponents will take droves of super cheap infantry issue the run order cross the board beyond your scoring area into their own and then make you run out your clock by making attack and damage rolls on the plethora of targets early in the game, while they keep a large reserve of time not attacking and only running.

Are there any scenarios that really hose circle in general? I have looked over them and I didn't see any that stood out. Defending various objectives will probably be a little harder on us but I don't think thats insurmountable.

Defending areas in a deathclock style format is not any more difficult than standard, and is more dependant upon your army composition than faction choice. circle as a faction are well suited in general due to the plethora of multiple movement variables within the faction.

Any new units/models that are just plain a pain in the butt? I picked up both battle engine books but didn't see anything truly horrible. Have I missed anything?

Any tactics that I should watch out for? for example they ask lots of questions on my clock to run the time down.

Hopefully a little knowledge will help light the way.

D-

in most situations any time you are waiting on your opponent you can stop the clock.
if they ask a question you can't as it is written pause your clock do nothing on the table to handle the question. however most players will simply continue playing and give short answers to any questions the opponent has, you can simply ignore them as on your turn they should not have any questions impacting the current game, unless they have to make a decision at which point you are once again waiting on them.
all large tournament events deal with the less than enjoyable players who's sole reason for being at the tournament is to win, and attempt tp operate outside the parameters of the game in order to force a defeat. the method of timing is not important to run out your clock.
for example some opponents will keep track of your time with you and argue about how much time you have left.

[ringsnake]

Fellow druids,
I have the privilege of being able to attend Origins ( http://originsgamefair.com/ ) on jun 1-2 and I plan to attend the two steamroller events listed for saturday (35 pt and 50pt steamrollers).

However, I have not played in awhile and I have never played with deathclock rules so I was hoping I could get a bit of info from the forumites to help me prepare a bit. Given my long absence I dont' figure on winning the events but I should have lots of fun

My questions are pretty simple,

What are some of the current pain in the rear opponents/lists that I am likely to see in deathclock?

as an example, I have heard of the winterguard deathstar being used to simply run you out of time trying to kill them all. What other ones are out there that circle might have particular trouble with?

Are there any scenarios that really hose circle in general? I have looked over them and I didn't see any that stood out. Defending various objectives will probably be a little harder on us but I don't think thats insurmountable.

Any new units/models that are just plain a pain in the butt? I picked up both battle engine books but didn't see anything truly horrible. Have I missed anything?

Any tactics that I should watch out for? for example they ask lots of questions on my clock to run the time down.

Hopefully a little knowledge will help light the way.

D-

1. You need to play, and you need to play a lot, and you need to play against people better at the game than you. One week is not enough time. Accept that you're going to not do well. I am willing to bet you'll be in the bottom 50%. Lie back and think of England. Just concentrate on having a good time.

2. Any opponent more experienced with deathclock is going to put the hurt on you. They're going to have experience with getting their stuff done under the allotted time. What armies you or they play won't enter into it all that much. It's possible to take down masses of warriors quickly if you know what you're doing.

3. Most of our units and beasts are fragile and cost a lot of points relative to most other factions. Any scenario that involves standing on objectives and taking massed attacks from the enemy is tough. There is eBaldur in theory for that, but I don't have the practice to say if he can brick it. For tough scenarios like that my goto has always been eKrueger for reasons that should be obvious.

4. Menoth is all kinds of nasty to deal with for Circle, and Cryx is all kinds of nasty for everyone. Menoth's battle engine is very good, but all the rest are not hardcore competitive.

[Dragonowar]

I appreciate the responses so far, quite a bit of useful info in there.

for djinni
My choice of words was poor. I am not looking for specific players as i am specific faction list related problems. that was my fault for not being very clear.

The topic of droves of infantry did come up as one way to "take advantage" of the system. Tough troll bricks also came up. There are solutions for each I just need to be thinking about them a little more.

your last paragraph in particular was of great use to me.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

for ringsnake

1. thats ok if i don't finish in the top 50%, I tried to make it clear I understand my odds.

2. Do you think past hardcore experience might help with that (no sarcasm intended)? its a timed environment I have played in before and I know how to build for that. I know of several ways in circle to clear infantry of various sorts, but I would like to know what types of infantry are more prevalent right now. Reading the lists in their forums is no substitute for the experience a fellow circle player has.

I suppose my question really should be what type of infantry should I be thinking about clearing? Are the Man of War teams still popular? has it all moved on to jacks/beasts? I have seen alot of buzz about the Terminus' tough army. As near as I can tell, infantrymachine isn't as prevalent but is still somewhat popular.

3. I am worried about the points exchange rate for holding a position/objective. E baldur is out for me as I don't have enough time to learn about him. Just Ekreuger's feat (properly timed) can win you games. Particulary those games where your opponent is only just inside the scoring zones. Alas, I feel too dirty when I play him. I have some ideas but they aren't terribly important to this conversation.

4. I used to play menoth too so I have some idea of what to look for there. I will give the menoth battle engine a 2nd look though thanks for that heads up. Cryx I am not as familiar with (there weren't many cryx players here when we were playing a lot.) and surveying their forums is on my to do list. Anything stand out? Mage blight from goreshade was always a pain, but (online at least) it doesn't seem like he is still that popular. Venethrax looks like someoneI will need to keep my distance from too.

Again I appreciate the info, any other scraps of experience someone wants to share will be appreciated.

[taffyjoe]

Know your list, and know the 1st turn of that list. I sounds simple, but actually if you havn't practiced you can spend twice as long on your first turn than if you had practiced. Know your primary targets for upkeeps, bearing in mind terrain/opponents etc and know what want to run. You can save yourself a store of time to use turn 2/3/4 if your first turn is less than 5 mins. Hell, i've done a 50 point tier 4 EKaya list in under 2.5 mins if your really pushing it and your opponent is experienced and knows what is going on. It relieves a bit of pressure from you.

Also try to plan your turns in your opponents turn, obvious maybe, but it can help.

Do essential activations first.

Finally, don't get hung up on the time, have a laugh and treat it as an experiment/learning experience.

[Delrogue]

Remember with deathclock that there are no secondary win conditions... This sometimes needs you to rethink traditional strats of getting a control point advantage and just trading pieces to dice down..

[Dragonowar]

Many thanks to both of you for such good solid advice.

[ShoX]

Know your list, and know the 1st turn of that list. I sounds simple, but actually if you havn't practiced you can spend twice as long on your first turn than if you had practiced. Know your primary targets for upkeeps, bearing in mind terrain/opponents etc and know what want to run. You can save yourself a store of time to use turn 2/3/4 if your first turn is less than 5 mins. Hell, i've done a 50 point tier 4 EKaya list in under 2.5 mins if your really pushing it and your opponent is experienced and knows what is going on. It relieves a bit of pressure from you.

Also try to plan your turns in your opponents turn, obvious maybe, but it can help.

Do essential activations first.

Finally, don't get hung up on the time, have a laugh and treat it as an experiment/learning experience.

About that, is taking notes allowed during games?

I'd totally read stuff for my turn off a script/reminders that I write during my opponent's turn.

[taffyjoe]

About that, is taking notes allowed during games?

I'd totally read stuff for my turn off a script/reminders that I write during my opponent's turn.

I plan in my head, I've never seen somebody taking notes but wouldn't have a problem as long as it doesn't eat into my time for some reason.

[ShoX]

Yeah, sure, I mean if there was an action or answer required on my part, I wouldn't say "Hang on, gotta write the third chapter of my book first."

[Bloodwind]

Hello
3 Techniques tips

1: Make notes on the character making the attacks.

Ok, so you're attacking a unit that has 13 def and 15 arm. If you want to take notes, write them directly on the card of the unit they are most likely to effect. So for the unit, I would put 13 under my mat, and 15 under the pow of my weapon

2: Roll all your dice at once.

It saves your time, most noticeably with units that don't have the option to boost; besides, it's way more satisfying to throw big handfuls of dice (just don't hit anyone's models), There is nothing like throwing 7 or 8 dice for a boosted charge attack. Not only that, I believe it actually increases the randomness of rolling; because, all the dice hit at once so you have a better bell curve. Not sure if you want to boost? just throw your damage after (but make sure you include your column die).

3: KNOW YOUR LIST/ARMY! (this is only last because everyone else has already said it)

Ok, so you know circle pretty well. Now you need to be able to respond to any question about your models as if you were looking at the card. Without looking at the card. Do you know what everyone's job is? Do you know your rough activation order? These things are going to be pretty much the same every time in a format like this. Also, don't be afraid to make them read your cards if you're in the middle of activating (I do this a lot, especially if they have complicated questions)

Bonus! Take lots of easy activations

Taking complicated power pieces is tempting, especially if you've seen them do nasty things to whole armies. Restrain yourself, use the complicated stuff sparingly in the midst of the straightforward stuff. You're trying to build an all comers list that can take on lots of different armies, and play fast. So don't take Morvahnna, a unit of Bloodtrackers with UA, and Druids with UA. It's a great combo, but the complexity of your turn is going to be crazy, and if you can't do it exhausted in round 4 you shouldn't have taken it.

[Dragonowar]

Well,
Origins is over and it was a blast. I want to say thanks again for all the help
that I received removing some of my rust. I took 3rd (of 12) in the 50 pt
tourney. I was near the bottom for the 35 7th(of 8 I think).


I am going to put a few notes here specific to my experiences with death clock.
I won't be able to do full battle reports because this was 14 hours or so of
warmachine/hordes things and things run together a bit.


Let?s see, where to start.

stuff that was useful from here:


from taffyjoe

Know your list, and know the 1st turn of that list. I sounds simple, but
actually if you haven?t practiced you can spend twice as long on your first
turn than if you had practiced. Know your primary targets for upkeeps, bearing
in mind terrain/opponents etc and know what want to run. You can save yourself
a store of time to use turn 2/3/4 if your first turn is less than 5 mins. Hell,
i've done a 50 point tier 4 EKaya list in under 2.5 mins if your really pushing
it and your opponent is experienced and knows what is going on. It relieves a
bit of pressure from you.


Also try to plan your turns in your opponents turn, obvious maybe, but it can
help.

Do essential activations first.


Finally, don't get hung up on the time, have a laugh and treat it as an
experiment/learning experience.

This was extremely handy info. The little bit of time it took me to spread out
my forces and try a turn with them showed a couple of flaws in my planned
activation order and placement. I took it a step further and actually placed
objectives and kill zones down to see how close I would be after 1 turn of
movement.


Planning in your opponents turn is handy but there were a couple of times that
they still threw me for a loop. Still, part of a plan on their turn is better
than all of a plan on mine.


I made the mistake of fighting/worrying about the clock in the 35 pt tourney,
rather than spending time planning the demise of my enemy. It did cost me and
your advice is sound about not getting hung up on it, laughing and treating it
as a learning experience. Once I loosened up some things went a lot better.


From djinni

in most situations any time you are waiting on your opponent you can
stop the clock.

if they ask a question you can't as it is written pause your clock do nothing
on the table to handle the question. however most players will simply continue
playing and give short answers to any questions the opponent has, you can
simply ignore them as on your turn they should not have any questions impacting
the current game, unless they have to make a decision at which point you are
once again waiting on them.

all large tournament events deal with the less than enjoyable players who's
sole reason for being at the tournament is to win, and attempt tp operate
outside the parameters of the game in order to force a defeat. the method of
timing is not important to run out your clock.

for example some opponents will keep track of your time with you and argue
about how much time you have left.

All good info. I had a lot of questions about models I had never seen before
and usually they would let me see the cards as we were setting up and in one
case the fella just paused the clock for me so I could read. All of the people
I played against were easy to deal with thankfully. But the information you
provided was still important. If there is a question that comes up during my
turn that couldn't be answered quickly and easily, pause the clock and get a
TO. They solved things quickly in general and when paused I was not losing by
running out of time.


from Delrogue

Remember with deathclock that there are no secondary win conditions...
This sometimes needs you to rethink traditional strats of getting a control
point advantage and just trading pieces to dice down..

This is exceedingly important. You absolutely must know what the scenario wants
before you try to win it. I printed out the list of steamroller scenarios and
studied them. It made a huge difference in knowing what to do. For example,
some scenarios require you to contest a zone while controlling your own. others
want you to control a different zone only while defending your own, others yet
still require you to control a zone or destroy an objective.


I lost a game by scenario where I had destroyed most of his army and was in
place to destroy the rest. It was entirely preventable I just lost track of
what was needed.


Make an effort to understand whats needed in the scenario is something I
learned well.


From Bloodwind

Hello

3 Techniques tips


1: Make notes on the character making the attacks.


Ok, so you're attacking a unit that has 13 def and 15 arm. If you want to take
notes, write them directly on the card of the unit they are most likely to
effect. So for the unit, I would put 13 under my mat, and 15 under the pow of
my weapon


2: Roll all your dice at once.


It saves your time, most noticeably with units that don't have the option to
boost; besides, it's way more satisfying to throw big handfuls of dice (just
don't hit anyone's models), There is nothing like throwing 7 or 8 dice for a
boosted charge attack. Not only that, I believe it actually increases the
randomness of rolling; because, all the dice hit at once so you have a better
bell curve. Not sure if you want to boost? just throw your damage after (but
make sure you include your column die).


3: KNOW YOUR LIST/ARMY! (this is only last because everyone else has already
said it)


Ok, so you know circle pretty well. Now you need to be able to respond to any
question about your models as if you were looking at the card. Without looking
at the card. Do you know what everyone's job is? Do you know your rough
activation order? These things are going to be pretty much the same every time
in a format like this. Also, don't be afraid to make them read your cards if
you're in the middle of activating (I do this a lot, especially if they have
complicated questions)

Bonus! Take lots of easy activations


Taking complicated power pieces is tempting, especially if you've seen them do
nasty things to whole armies. Restrain yourself, use the complicated stuff
sparingly in the midst of the straightforward stuff. You're trying to build an
all comers list that can take on lots of different armies, and play fast. So
don't take Morvahnna, a unit of Bloodtrackers with UA, and Druids with UA. It's
a great combo, but the complexity of your turn is going to be crazy, and if you
can't do it exhausted in round 4 you shouldn't have taken it.

The column die was most useful, I didn't use it alot but when I needed it the
extra time saved was handy. One problem I ran into was other folks were using
column dice that were very similiar to their regular dice. Mine was yellow with
red numbers with the old green circle dice. I really, really, recommend that if
you use column dice make them another easy to identify color so your opponent
doesn't have to ask which is which.


I did hand my cards off a number of times to various people who weren't
familiar with exactly what I was doing. I did take the extra time out to make
sure they understood though. Perhaps bad for me but I thought it was proper.


Your bonus was very helpful to me. I took relatively uncomplicated forces and
this helped speed things along. Your point about " if you can't do it
exhausted in round 4 you shouldn't have taken it" holds extremely true.


From Shox

I took a notebook but I found that I was either answering too many questions on
my opponents turn (arm, def, etc) to really plan out what I was going to do in
the early rounds. The later rounds I would have had more time to do so but
mostly I just kept it in my head. So, I think (for me anyway) that the notebook
just wasn't going to work. perhaps something smaller with shorthand notes? If
you find something that works pretty well let us know, I know I am interested
in it.

From ringsnake

1. You need to play, and you need to play a lot, and you need to play
against people better at the game than you. One week is not enough time. Accept
that you're going to not do well. I am willing to bet you'll be in the bottom
50%. Lie back and think of England. Just concentrate on having a good time.

2. Any opponent more experienced with deathclock is going to put the hurt on
you. They're going to have experience with getting their stuff done under the
allotted time. What armies you or they play won't enter into it all that much.
It's possible to take down masses of warriors quickly if you know what you're
doing.

3. Most of our units and beasts are fragile and cost a lot of points relative
to most other factions. Any scenario that involves standing on objectives and
taking massed attacks from the enemy is tough. There is eBaldur in theory for
that, but I don't have the practice to say if he can brick it. For tough
scenarios like that my goto has always been eKrueger for reasons that should be
obvious.

4. Menoth is all kinds of nasty to deal with for Circle, and Cryx is all kinds
of nasty for everyone. Menoth's battle engine is very good, but all the rest
are not hardcore competitive.

I agree that playing alot would certainly have helped my chances a good bit,
and where possible I encourage anyone else who plans on attending such events
to do so. Concentrating on having a good time I do agree with a good bit, its
what makes the experience more enjoyable I think.

My one loss in the 50 pt tourney was to a tier 4 eKreoss list doing kill box. I
simply couldn't hold the ground from all the autohitting weaponmasters. Had I
used my alternate list I think would have done better, but I didn't.

So, don't forget to use your alternate list.

[Dragonowar]

Stuff I found useful
Sorting out tokens apparently takes a lot of time. I really recommend putting the tokens you need for each of your lists in a seperate bag of some sort. I was constantly scrambling to make sure I had everything together. Bring enough tokens for corpses, fury, vortexes for druids etc and keep a seperate bag for each army list. Once I cut back to just a small bag of tokens I had a couple of moments where I could really survey the board and my opponents army in detail and try to see what their trick was. Believe me it will save you some headache.

Get something to carry your entire army to the next table. Putting them in and then out of their case is tiring and time consuming. Several of the folks I played against had these nifty boards that had the appropiate sized holes to put their bases in. They just picked it up and went. I really, really liked that. Luckily my list was small enough I could carry it on a book. Carrying my other models around though was a pain. Take only what you truly need.

Not all of your opponents are just win happy monsters rolling dice. In fact I found that all of my opponents turned out to be decent human beings that I had a lot of fun playing against. Sure they were playing to win, but we had some laughs too. We even formed a warpwolf band, though the troll was rejected as lead singer.

Ask your opponents for advice after you play. Sometimes they will have some surprising insights that can help you.

If you finish a match early wander about and take a look at the other lists being played. It can teach you something about your next opponent sometimes. Sometimes you can just learn a better way to things. Sometimes you can get to see a phenomenal game. I witnessed a game come down to a single tough roll between everblight and trolls. It was a hard fought game and time ran out just as the critical tough roll was being made. He failed it.

If you are going with friends have them come by and check on you and bring snacks/drinks. Full blown meals would probably be frowned upon but starburst can help you make friends it?s really handy in longer tourneys.

Read, I mean really read (for content several times) the steamroller rules. The differences in how control points are scored can really make a difference for you.

Fighting the clock is definitely bad. I wasted a fair amount of time in the 35 pt event worrying about the clock. Once I stopped, things improved a good bit.

I think that?s all my notes for now but if there is interest will put out a short trip report in a separate thread about armies played/specifics.

Also, having played it now, I don't think deathclock is the bad bogeyman several people have told me it was. It was just different than regular steam roller. thats my 2 cents.