Are mercenary solo's/units shunned in your local gaming area ?

[Tyr852]

As they sure are in mine , if you aren't running a pure faction people just give you that look of disdain or comment with "wow , why don't you just play mercs" . Is it just some sort of pride thing that people have to not be using all the tools available to them ?

I'm of course not referring to mercenaries as a faction just the solos that other ones can use , ie Eiryss w/ Khador since we have very little in the way of upkeep removal.

[RidetheLightning]

It's sad that your local crew looks upon those that hire out with disdain! I consider myself a "purist" player but I never fault my opponent for wanting to play models they either like or know work!

[Vicomte Athos]

I'm one of 'those guys'. I really dislike it when a player only fields a caster and a jack or two of his faction and then loads out on merc character units and solo's. I get that they are undercosted and strong but still. There should be a maximum number of points you can spend on mercs.

[MagnustheJust]

I'm one of 'those guys'. I really dislike it when a player only fields a caster and a jack or two of his faction and then loads out on merc character units and solo's. I get that they are undercosted and strong but still. There should be a maximum number of points you can spend on mercs.

I challenge you to claw-claw!!!

[sleet01]

Trial by stone!!

[darisus]

I don't get the whole faction purity thing.... It's like saying you only eat vanilla icecream, but i like to add toppings to mine (mmmm, thinking of a vanilla sunday with choclate and peanuts right now), and anyone who doesn't eat it plain is dumb, because that is its purist form.

Play with what you like and if you happen to want to spice up your faction with all the things you are allowed to take wether merc or not, why not do it?

I happen to really enjoy my Protectorate casters, but if i want to throw in Sam and the DD in my thyra list for some fun and to add a different element, what is wrong with that? Having a marshalled bucaneer KD thrya's assasination target means i won't have to worry about hitting and can save that carnage focus for more atacks and damage boosts or KD los blockers so i can have my reckoners pop off support pieces in the backfield or any number of other options i like but don't really have an (in faction) way to get easy.

I thought the whole point of mercs was to provide options that weren't as easy to do or get in faction an d add some more flavor to your lists. But hey, if you only want to eat your vanilla icecream plain, don't knock me for wanting to spruce it up with some toppings!!!

[John of Arc]

I'm one of 'those guys'. I really dislike it when a player only fields a caster and a jack or two of his faction and then loads out on merc character units and solo's. I get that they are undercosted and strong but still. There should be a maximum number of points you can spend on mercs.

That's why Mercs sweep every con, and most major lists are comprised entirely of mercenary units instead of Kayazy Assassins, Winterguard, Bane Thralls, Mechanithralls, Satyxis Raiders, Exemplars Errants, Gun Mages, and Stormblades.

Seriously though, faction purity is a personal choice. What do they play? Does NO ONE use mercs? Do they understand that in their original incarnation, mercenaries literally weren't capable of fielding an army on their own? They have been designed from the ground up to be used with other factions. That's half the point of including mercenaries in the game- instead of having four different pathfinder granting solos, they create Saxon and Rupert. It helps keep factions from being homogenized, and it's one helluva convenience for when you're starting out or carrying armies around when a couple of your pieces can be used by every single army you have. I understand people wanting to stay faction pure, but they need to know that it's a construction of their own mind. Privateer Press has designed and balanced their game around the fact that Mercenaries exist. Story wise, mercenaries are used extensively by Cygnar and Khador, which just happen to be the two factions with access to the greatest number of mercenaries. Mercenaries are NOT overpowered. If they were, they would dominate the competitive scene of this game, and they do not. If your opponents think that mercenaries are overpowered, then you really need to bust out some of those power combos like eSorscha + Winterguard + Beast 09 and watch their jaw drop.

Next time your opponent asks why you don't just go and play mercs, ask him why he doesn't just shut his god damn mouth. Or, if you're a cool guy and not a sociopath, you can ask what exactly it is about using mercenaries that gives them the moral high ground. Because whether its for story, game design, or balance reasons, mercenaries are a cornerstone of the game. Refusing to use them is a personal choice, and enforcing that on someone else is like being a vegetarian and ragging on your buddy every time he eats a piece of meat. It's obnoxious, and it's bad form.

And hey. If all else fails, you can tell him to take a good look at page 5. And then while he's looking, close the book on his face. NOTE: That last sentence may or may not technically be a form of assault, and I do not officially endorse it.

[PG_Alviaran]

The fluff of the Iron Kingdoms has built in that mercenaries, both companies and individuals, are widespread and often utilized in various manners by the governments. There is no fluff or rules justification for being completely "faction pure". If one wants to play that way, they can. If they want others to (mostly) play that way, they can go to a theme list tournament.

The idea is that the tools exist. If you wish to shun them, do so at your own peril. Do not expect too many alternate options to pop up in faction because with the merc already existing, they don't want to overlap it. One instance of X ability via a merc is safe. Two instances might be pushing it. And with the advent of character restrictions, not being able to take a certain merc in every list for an event means you have to think about your choices and design the list accordingly. But if you have the merc and the in faction character, there is no sacrifice. You just toss it into both.

And the idea that someone is in someway shunned for using the options PP has given them, balanced choices, is just ludicrous.

[Vicomte Athos]

That's why Mercs sweep every con, and most major lists are comprised entirely of mercenary units instead of Kayazy Assassins, Winterguard, Bane Thralls, Mechanithralls, Satyxis Raiders, Exemplars Errants, Gun Mages, and Stormblades.

Obviously because the con meta is the only one that matters. Not everyone treats every game as a steam roller event.

I'd reply to the rest of your post but you are just rage flaming and not worth the ban I'd get from replying to you.

[Azuresun]

Obviously because the con meta is the only one that matters. Not everyone treats every game as a steam roller event.

So you're saying that mercenary units are fine compared to the best of in-faction stuff at conventions, but overpowered in a casual game, somehow? Given the statement John was replying to, I'm not sure which other way to read that, or what point you're trying to make.

I'd reply to the rest of your post but you are just rage flaming and not worth the ban I'd get from replying to you.

This is not really helping the tone of discussion. If I find a post so objectionable I can't think of a civil reply, then I'll just report if a rule's being broken and then read something I find more pleasant & productive.

[Vicomte Athos]

So you're saying that mercenary units are fine compared to the best of in-faction stuff at conventions, but overpowered in a casual game, somehow? Given the statement John was replying to, I'm not sure which other way to read that, or what point you're trying to make.

What I'm saying is that there are restrictions in con based events (character restrictions, time, etc.) that are not present in the non-tournament environment despite it also being competitive. So using Alexia + Risen, Nyss, Aiyanna and Holt, Rhupert, Saxon, Eiryss, Reinholt, Harlan, Gorman, etc. in every single list where all you do is swap your caster and one jack is not only perfectly legal but actively encouraged ("use your tools"). So what I'm saying is that there should have been a baseline in the book restriction on the amount of points or number of entries in your list that are not of your faction. Because what is the point in playing a faction if the only model in your list that IS your faction is your caster.

[John of Arc]

Local meta matters more to you than con meta. Not to you specifically, I mean that as a general you- you can't bring a balanced take-all-comers list designed to take on popular forum choices if your local meta runs mostly troll bricks and khador armor lists. So yes, not only does the local meta matter more, it's the only one that matters for the majority of players out there, including myself. However, if we're going to talk about the overall balance of a group of units, then the con meta absolutely matters. It's the meta which has the largest sampling of players and the highest average skill rating between said players, not to mention that's where major tournaments take place. It's also the only common ground we can use to talk about things in a competitive setting. If mercenary units were undercosted- and I don't mean strong, I mean undercosted to the point of being very noticable- then they would see more play, especially now that ranking officers make them more viable with a wider range of casters. I'm no tournament player by any means, but in my experience non-nyss mercenary units are well balanced and appropriately costed. Their general lack of presence in high-level play games is circumstantial evidence in support of that opinion, or at least evidence against the idea that they are overpowered. I'd also point to the general lack of threads crying about Devil Dogs and Steelheads compared to the anti-bane and anti-high def infantry threads out there.

Sorry if I snipped at you, but I was just feeling a little heated over the fact that the OP's game mates are disrespecting him based on his army composition. The game is overall fairly well balanced, with nothing being so blatantly overpowered that it becomes okay to make derisive comments at someone playing it. I just don't like the idea of someone's enjoyment in this hobby being diminished because their game mates have a prejudice against a set of options which were designed to be an integral part of the game since the inception of Mk. II.

[Col_Festus]

As a Khador player I'm often at a huge disadvantage if I don't use mercs to sure up my list. Certain match ups can literally be a forgone conclusion if I decided to not include mercs. Factions are designed and balanced with their existence in mind. I feel like a lot of the hate mercs get usually come from new players or ex GW players. When our community was young and just starting out a lot of people had a problem with mercs. They held them in the same vein as Dogs of War or inquisitorial allies. In the end there is nothing wrong with mercs.

[psichotykwyrm]

This seems to crop up in every game to various degrees. A certain other game had (and may still have) many instances of "composition" scores being imposed to penalize players for taking options others may not like. Not to mention threads upon threads upon threads in various forums devoted to negative attitudes regarding what others play with.

I chalk it up to human nature, an impulse to seek out enemies where there are none. The solution is simple, yet up to the individual: Knock it off.

[Tiran]

Eiryss is shunned in my local gaming area, not so much any other mercs - I guess playing only Mercs I haven't got too much of a handle on this though.

[leo_neil316]

While I'll never accept 'your faction is balanced around its merc access' as a reason for in faction stuff being underpowered that's because my issue is that people should be able to play what they want to play, with a reasonable chance of it working.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

No one should make you feel bad for playing what you want to play within the scope of the rules.

[PG_Wold]

My store has some faction purists, but I don't think ive ever seen them berate someone for using mercs. It's a legal choice in the game.

[HeadHunter]

This is already handled in the rules on PAGE 5.
'nuff said.

[MagnustheJust]

This is already handled in the rules on PAGE 5.
'nuff said.

Page 5 is not part of the rules section, so...

[HeadHunter]

Couldn't you at least have chosen a more impressive or humorous meme? Seriously, is that the best one you had?

[MagnustheJust]

Seriously though... A lot of players forget that Mercenaries were originally intend to fill those gaps in the mamby-pamby cake eater faction lists.

But along came players like myself who saw the Magnus battlebox and started to play just that as a warcaster choice. Then Eiryss1, Reinholdt, Herne & Jonne, and Boomhowler & Co. were added to that to make a full Mercenary list.Thus a sizable headache for PP was started...


The rest is history - awesome, epic history.


If folks want to go faction pure, and in all honesty handicap themselves, let them!!

But at the same time, those individuals need to acknowledge other players desire to add Mercenaries, fill a void or two in their doom list, and help themselves to a piping hot cup of shut it!!

[MagnustheJust]

Couldn't you at least have chosen a more impressive or humorous meme? Seriously, is that the best one you had?

That is MY bed, and one of MY ferrets there chicken lips!!

My honor, and that of my ferret is besmirched...

Slapping fish duel at brunch I say!!

[Raktra]

The main reason I don't use Mercs in my Khador and Legion is because I don't like the aesthetic mismatches. My Skorne and Menoth, I'm okay with. The Menoth stuff is converted anyway, so there's no real issue there, and Skorne encourages their use.

[HeadHunter]

If folks want to go faction pure, and in all honesty handicap themselves, let them!

Now, now... we already know that the purists are handicapped. But we are required under the ADA to make the game accessible to them as well.
You could always lend them that "crutch" that they're talking about.

[HeadHunter]

Bloody double post.

[MagnustheJust]

The main reason I don't use Mercs in my Khador and Legion is because I don't like the aesthetic mismatches. My Skorne and Menoth, I'm okay with. The Menoth stuff is converted anyway, so there's no real issue there, and Skorne encourages their use.

This here is a valid reason.

[HeadHunter]

Indeed - aesthetics are ALWAYS a valid reason for me. Though I believe that form should follow function, I also believe that anything worth doing is worth looking good while doing.
And honestly, it's more enjoyable to face a good-looking, well coordinated army across the table. It aids in the immersion.

[Carrington]

As they sure are in mine , if you aren't running a pure faction people just give you that look of disdain or comment with "wow , why don't you just play mercs" .

"Gold may not buy you good soldiers, but good soldiers can always buy you gold."

The question seems valid -- there are some nice Merc army lists out there. The look of disdain, not so much.

But then, think of it as 'fluffy:' e.g. Vladimir Tszpeci would get very similar questions from his 'compatriots' were he to start fielding large mercenary armies.

All of the factions in the IK soap opera are themselves riven by internal strife and outright civil conflict, to the point that I find it quite easy to confuse the milieu with that of Westeros.

[Jinxies]

I've had people ask me why I don't just play Minions (I generally just take Warbeasts and maybe a Taskmaster from faction) and the reasons for that is I like the Skorne Warlocks and there is currently no pact that let me mix my piggies and gators (not brigands and gatormen anyways, I believe you can have bonegrinders in Calaban's list). So Rasheth, Morghul and Naresh get to run my minions for now :3 Zaal still gets to play faction :P

[Lich_Lord_X]

How many people at your LGS are Cryx players? That should answer your question.

[J. Beatnik]

I love seeing mercs because I get to see neat new model and rules interactions, and mercs have some great looking models. That said, I had a guy who played pirates who just beat me like a dusty rug during our Olgunholt league. He gave me a lot of advice about how to play against them (kill the good solos: Hawk, Rockbottom, Doc, etc)

I'm a Cygnar player and I love my faction. I don't really play mercs because:
1. I don't own any yet. (I'm still collecting in faction models)
2. I was playing in Olgunholt and was still trying to figure out which mercs would be around the ord/llael area to be hired on.

I guess I'm a faction purist, but only because I like to follow the story with my lists. In Olgunholt, I was using a pStryker list built right out of the battlebox.

[ReaverQueen]

Some mercs are of course a tired sight after awhile.


But I generally find that theme forces help even out the odds. If you don't play a theme force ( typically faction purist and very fluffy ) then you aren't in much of a position to argue about the use of mercs anyway.

[nicholas_342]

With the exception of Jinxies How many people out there actually run a full army of mercs with a faction caster? I don't usually run more than 2-5 points of mercs with my Menoth. Most of my lists are pure, and yet I run more mercs than anyone else at my store. In my group we have a cygnar player that runs Reinholdt with Sloan but that's about it. I get flack for running Nyss and ATGM with Durgen, but that's just the anti dwarf sentiment

edit: And I almost never run Eiyress

[Weaselcreature]

I think John of Arc addressed the situation the best, and while the first post was...passionate...I don't think it was ragey at all. I can understand ones dislike of a faction warcaster an everything else merc force, but it's not only legal it is very much fitting in the Iron Kingdoms (say a 'Caster gets cut off or is out on a solo mission, but Skorne are coming! Better hire some mercs and take it to them!).

Personally, I play faction-only with Cygnar (I really don't know why...I just do), but I don't care if someone has Mercs in their force. My Cryx uses Mercs, and I'm building a Merc force now, so...

[PG_LunarSol]

This seems to crop up in every game to various degrees.

In most games, Mercs, or any wild card options are almost always bad design space. They either wind up being globally superior and thus, greatly homogenizing the game or at the very least, they wind up negating a lot of faction uniqueness. As much as people don't realize this, Warmachine's faction restrictions on its Mercenary models greatly alleviate this issue and generally make it so few Mercenary choices are truly ubiquitous across the entire game. Even if a model is in every list for a certain faction, its in a much smaller percentage of total lists than it would be if it was like most games where Mercenary meant "can be taken by anyone".

There are certainly some problem Mercs. Generally I'm of the belief that more than 3 per game or 4 across both systems is probably the point where a Merc threatens faction variety. Minions are actually way more of a problem than Mercs, IMO, as they almost universally work for every Hordes faction. Boomhowler may be the best tarpit in Cygnar, but that's not nearly as much of an issue as the Gatormen being the best multi-wound infantry for EVERY Hordes faction in the game.

[PG_LunarSol]

But then, think of it as 'fluffy:' e.g. Vladimir Tszpeci would get very similar questions from his 'compatriots' were he to start fielding large mercenary armies.

I always envision Vlad using his wealth to hire out bands of Mercenaries for secret missions given to him by the Old Witch.

[ReaverQueen]

...What.

Champions > Gatormen every time.

[Darguth]

They have been designed from the ground up to be used with other factions. That's half the point of including mercenaries in the game- instead of having four different pathfinder granting solos, they create Saxon and Rupert. It helps keep factions from being homogenized, and it's one helluva convenience for when you're starting out or carrying armies around when a couple of your pieces can be used by every single army you have.

This tends to be the general reason for my dislike of Mercenaries as an out-of-faction inclusion. Seeing so many lists bringing the same "power" solos or units breaks the aesthetic for me, and is just kinda bland.

But that's just my choice. Though, I do give my buddies grief that they're "that guy" when they bring power solos/units, but that's just because they're my buddies and I like to give them grief. It really doesn't start to bother me until the number of Mercenaries in your list begins to be about equal the number of non-Mercenaries in your list though.

[PG_LunarSol]

This tends to be the general reason for my dislike of Mercenaries as an out-of-faction inclusion. Seeing so many lists bringing the same "power" solos or units breaks the aesthetic for me, and is just kinda bland.

But that's just my choice. Though, I do give my buddies grief that they're "that guy" when they bring power solos/units, but that's just because they're my buddies and I like to give them grief. It really doesn't start to bother me until the number of Mercenaries in your list begins to be about equal the number of non-Mercenaries in your list though.

Is this really any different though than every list being WGDS or Banes? Avatar and Choir, Ravagores, etc? I rarely see Mercenaries breaking down variety across factions, and even the ones that do are generally a solo or two that might make up a very small percent of the models on the table.