Are mercenary solo's/units shunned in your local gaming area ?

[HandsomeDan]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in my area complain about the use of mercs or minions. I resisted adding Eiryss to my Protectorate for awhile when I first started playing. But I got over it. I'm surprised it's such an issue.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

...What.

Champions > Gatormen every time.

Why is that? Slower(when charging living models), without reach, roughly equivalent damage output, similar built in arm buffs, but gators get their choice of other self buffs. Gators kick champs right in the teeth 9 times out of 10.

[A8mew]

Only one that makes anyone I know groan is Eiryss. Not because she's a merc, but because she's good and turns every plan into a FF7 reference by existing.

[jandrese]

Because the Champs get the Krielstone aura and Fell Caller buffs mostly. Alone they aren't all that special, but buffed up they are amazing. Gatormen just don't get as many options for external buffs, which is why their self buffing is so much better.

[PG_LunarSol]

...What.

Champions > Gatormen every time.

Champions can be better than Gators, but they require a ton of points invested in them to do so. It's pretty hard to get the same kind of mileage out of 9-10 points of champs that you do out of gators.

[A8mew]

EDIT: Winning at double posting.

[ReaverQueen]

Better sculpt. Better UA. Better theme force/army synergy ( in trolls imo ).


It's not often a fair comparison though to take infaction and compare to things that don't benefit from Faction Friendly though. Overall in any case, I don't think that Gatormen really throw HORDES out of swing too much.



But that's Minions though. Some cool solos, but nothing as crazy as Merc solos/units. At least, again, not in my opinion.

[TheLoki]

On the warmachine side of things I own a battlegroup and some casters for the big 4 factions (ret dont allow most mercs) and plug in my full steelhead list. It works A LOT better then it should.

On the hordes side of things I'm working on the same thing. I consider myself a minion player even tho i own a battlegroup for every hordes faction minus trolls.

I guess in a sense I'm a faction purist as well. Pure Minions .

That will all change once minions get fleshed out a bit and i will be truly pure.

[MeniteTom]

Where are you guys even encountering these crazy all Merc/non-Merc caster lists? Other than that weird pDenny pirate list, its rare to see more than a unit and a couple of solos in any given list.

[Defenstrator]

That's why Mercs sweep every con, and most major lists are comprised entirely of mercenary units instead of Kayazy Assassins, Winterguard, Bane Thralls, Mechanithralls, Satyxis Raiders, Exemplars Errants, Gun Mages, and Stormblades.

And Stormblades? I mean I like Stormblades but I look at the list and can't help but feel I'm missing something.

[ReaverQueen]

I'm sure more than one competitive merc list includes Kayazy.

[Jota]

I do think its boring to go to a tournament and meet several different fractions and realizing there is Nyss hunters in almost every opponents list. Same thing with Gorman, Eiryss and some others. I was also unpleasantly surprised to meet the Eliminators in such an abundance in the last tournament I participated in (eVald+Eliminators*2 is harsh but in faction at least I guess, Diamano+Eliminators*2 is less harsh but still no fun).

I have nothing against mercenaries/minions units/models per se, but when some of them are so blatantly undercosted that they take a spot in such a large part of tournament lists they do it take away something from the game - they make otherwise specific lists generic.

[Maou_Mint]

Variety is the spice of life. Let people have their spices as they like. If one doesn't want to use something themselves that's fine, but I think trying to force others not to use toys they like is, well... not very mature.

Shooting yourself in the foot is usually act of foolishness, but a personal choice. Shooting someone else in the foot is a crime.

[joelker41]

I'm one of 'those guys'. I really dislike it when a player only fields a caster and a jack or two of his faction and then loads out on merc character units and solo's. I get that they are undercosted and strong but still. There should be a maximum number of points you can spend on mercs.

Well your thinking is predicated on false information.

You don't go to the family reunion to meet women.

Not everything you need is always in your faction!

[ReaverQueen]

You don't go to the family reunion to meet women.

So I've been doing this wrong then.

[joelker41]

I think it should be mandatory if you are anti mercenary/minion you should have to tell us all what your factions are.

[ProtoClone]

Well, like the saying goes: There is more then one way to skin a cat.

If you want to be a pure faction player, that's fine. Just don't get on people for their opinions on what they want in their forces. Maybe talk to them and encourage them to try the faction in its pure form and give them pointers as to how to bring the best out of that force. But don't just sit there and fart higher then your butt, it only works against you when you do.

[John of Arc]

And Stormblades? I mean I like Stormblades but I look at the list and can't help but feel I'm missing something.

Hey! They used to be popular, I swear! :P

@Raktra: converted Menoth? Are you doing an army of the old faith list, like from that one insider?

[sleet01]

Storm Blades have been winning tournaments, they've just been following Strakhov's lead and going dressed as WGI.

[Tyr852]

Really wish the forums had a like feature for some of these responses , and glad to see that it's not just my area that it happens in. It's just frustrating on many levels because it's some sort of barrier that people don't seem to want to get by when they also want to improve on their game and I'm trying to help them with suggestions on units to use. I tend to think the mercs actually help diversify the meta by allowing you to get something you may not have access to unless you use a particular caster (in my case unless I play Zerkova I have no access to upkeep removal and you know how much crippling grasp sucks on a speed 4 warjack , oh look 9-13 pts down the tube from a single spell ).

And John of Arc some days it's a thin line between asking them why they have such issues , and just dropping Behemoth in a sock.

[PG_Nemlock]

No. Thankfully we don't have anyone in our local meta who thinks this way. We all recognize Gorman is awesome and Eiryss is great to kill turn 2. I constantly run gators in many of my Legion armies. Why? Because Ogrun are poop. If I went up against someone that somehow thought I "cheated" by using gators I'd be extremely tempted to run gators in every single solitary one of my games against that person and start to point out that these crocs aren't invincible, they can be killed like anything else. Silly geese should get over themselves.

[Vicomte Athos]

Well your thinking is predicated on false information.

Actually it's not, but nice assumption.

You don't go to the family reunion to meet women.

You're assuming I'm not adopted, or from the south.

Not everything you need is always in your faction!

That's a flaw in logic. You place the burden of blame on the faction for having the gaps that need to be filled by undercosted character mercs. The burden is on design for engineering the fault in the first place.

And Fluff=! Rules so please stop using the "it's in the fluff" excuse. If it were the case you could play Haley and her +4 Plot Armor would keep you from losing.

[Ysthrall]

Merc/minion units (beyond Aiyanna and Holt, or a couple of solos) are uncommon in my area, except in the Merc/minion factions.

But when I looked down a gaming area and saw A+H in 3/4 armies... It's the damnable ubiquity of some that annoy me. Except Eiryiss. I like Eiryiss. She dies easily...

[The Sentinel]

Build your own list however you want, but don't tell other people how to build theirs.

[Mad_Zerker]

Nyss hunters strong? Yeah, I can agree to that. Undercosted? o.O

[joelker41]

That was probably my favorite comment was that people don't like fighting Mercs because they are undercosted.

Really?

I'm pretty most factions have an element that every other faction would call undercost. Warwitch siren, Kovnik Joe, Knight Errants, Black 13th, etc.

Complaining about someone playing an option in there faction is like playing menoth Jack heavy with no choir. Why do it?

[darisus]

I am getting quite a few chuckles out of people saying merc units are undercosted...! IF that was true, merc contracts would have a better showing locally and nationally then they do. Merc models are not undercosted, and if some of them buck the curve for there points so do alot of in faction models. Many times people say "such and such a unit in blank faction is undercosted", but rarely if ever have i heard anyone say that mercs in generl are undercosted for what they do. In fact, i often here the exact opposite. I often here how someone likes a merc unit but they don't play them because they can get a similar unit in faction that is the same price or cheaper and can get all there in faction buffs.

This blanket assumption that merc choice are somehow this cheaper alternative to in faction choices so they should be taken over them seems silly. Like myself and many others have stated mercs are simply "alternate" options to take to fill certain gaps in lists that may or may not be done infaction or just because they are fun and characterfull.

[Trygle]

I honestly think they are costed weirdly.

It's like they knew how powerful they were in a 6 man unit so they costed them at 7...
..but then they decided it's not so bad if there are MORE OF THEM and made the full unit 10. Is there another unit with that much of a discount for going in a full unit?

Because a Min unit brings the cost of each grunt to 1.16 each, but a full unit brings it down to 1pt per grunt. Had they had the usual discount for similarly priced units it would have been 11 points for the max unit.

I can't honestly say how they perform, I have never played them nor do I want to buy them.... but from what I hear they seem to do a lot of damage for their pt cost and I am left wondering exactly how they decided to cost them from Min to Max.

Oh and also, Merc units are not undercosted within the faction, it's usually outside the Merc/Minion faction that people begin to groan.

[Hammerdrake]

From dictionary.com:

mer·ce·nar·y   /ˈmɜrsəˌnɛri/ Show Spelled [mur-suh-ner-ee] adjective, noun, plural mer·ce·nar·ies.
noun
3. a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army

min·ion   /ˈmɪnyən/ Show Spelled[min-yuhn]
noun
1. a servile follower or subordinate of a person in power

Using them in other factions is kind of the point, right?

[sleet01]

I dunno about other factions, but Mercs are generally the better price per model *and* better ROI than Cygnar faction options. Nyss, for example, are a better unit than the Long Gunners at the same cost. Forge Guard are a slightly longer melee threat range and better armor than Storm Blades for a discount on the full unit. Sword Knights tie the Steelhead Halberdiers for point cost, but the latter unit is generally more useful. Etc.

[HeadHunter]

We can't examine each Mercenary character or unit in a vacuum, either. In order to get the best return on their points, the player must use them in a way that synergizes with the rest of their army. An "undercosted" merc may make an "overpriced" or "weak" unit finally effective for its cost. The sum total is balanced. Rarely does a "cheap" merc make an already "undercosted" unit even more "broken" (Gods, how I loathe the misuse of that term).

In more than thirty years of gaming experience, I've come to see that "broken" is whatever unit causes an ineffective player to reap the results of their poor play and "cheesy" is whatever a lazy player can't figure out how to overcome. The victorious player, on the other hand, does his best to play at his peak and use everything he's got to maximum effectiveness.

Do you think Leonidas whined about Xerxes' army list? Or do you think he held Thermopylae when he was outnumbered more than 10-1 because he was dedicated and skilled? The Persians didn't get that far by being scrubs themselves, you know. But the Spartans buckled on their jocks and beat them anyways.

[Drzombieface]

I use quite a few mercs in my Cygnar lists, but not in my Cryx (only merc I regularly use in Cryx is Gorman).

Our gaming area doesn't really bother with mercs being put into a faction because alot of us have mercs as a seperate faction. Some Rhulic players, some generic mercs, pirates, etc. I myself have had 2 different all- merc lists (tier 4 Damiano and a 35 point Fiona list)

[Trygle]

We can't examine each Mercenary character or unit in a vacuum, either. In order to get the best return on their points, the player must use them in a way that synergizes with the rest of their army. An "undercosted" merc may make an "overpriced" or "weak" unit finally effective for its cost. The sum total is balanced. Rarely does a "cheap" merc make an already "undercosted" unit even more "broken" (Gods, how I loathe the misuse of that term).

Rarely?

Whatever mercs bring to the table doesn't discriminate against units. Your example assumes that the mercs options aren't undercosted/overpowered because they lend their power to weaker/underpowered units.

Who uses them like that? The mercs don't care what you use them on, so you will use them on units that ARE powerful to make them EVEN MORE powerful.

Honestly if things were the way you painted them we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?

[ReaverQueen]

Well, with Nyss, it's like this:

Imagine every faction gets one super rad character unit. Like, Khador gets the Great Bears who should cost 6 pts and are quite awesome.

Now imagine every faction that can use the super awesome merc character unit now has 2 of those slightly undercosted, super awesome character units. Now there's something of a slight imbalance going on, really.


Like I said though... I think theme forces even it out. And really if you aren't playing a theme force... don't complain. You aren't going to run a Sorscha border guard list and then stuff it full of Assault Kommandos or something, because that's not her thing. That's why the theme forces have in-faction restrictions that keep them bound to the style, theme, and tactics of the army they represent - and reward you with bonuses.

If you want to make an indiscriminate overarching faction army you might as well include mercs, generic or otherwise, because its essentially the same to add them as it is to mash together things that don't traditionally operate together, sub-faction wise. If you know what I mean.

[HeadHunter]

Honestly if things were the way you painted them we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?

People will always complain about the other guy, regardless of balance. Want proof? If one's opinion of balance were absolute, rather than subjective, everyone would agree on it. The fact that we're having the discussion means that "balance" is all about opinion. QED.

Again, I will reiterate that you cannot evaluate any unit's cost in a vacuum. A points cost is meaningless unless we consider how it "pays for itself". Put the same merc in an army that doesn't make best use of its abilities, and play it against one that does. You can't expect both armies to have the same chance of victory - but the loser will say the winner's unit is "undercosted". How can that be?

Used properly, a good merc will make a decent unit better - of that there's no doubt. But the point I was trying to make is that it makes the other unit worth its points - that the collective cost becomes worthwhile. We're not playing an all-solo army, are we?

[jandrese]

I honestly think they are costed weirdly.

It's like they knew how powerful they were in a 6 man unit so they costed them at 7...
..but then they decided it's not so bad if there are MORE OF THEM and made the full unit 10. Is there another unit with that much of a discount for going in a full unit?

Because a Min unit brings the cost of each grunt to 1.16 each, but a full unit brings it down to 1pt per grunt. Had they had the usual discount for similarly priced units it would have been 11 points for the max unit.

I can't honestly say how they perform, I have never played them nor do I want to buy them.... but from what I hear they seem to do a lot of damage for their pt cost and I am left wondering exactly how they decided to cost them from Min to Max.

Oh and also, Merc units are not undercosted within the faction, it's usually outside the Merc/Minion faction that people begin to groan.

It's because the leader is an officer and vital for the unit to function properly. Take her out and they are far less dangerous. They're basically a 5/8 unit but the leader has a 2 point premium.

[Trygle]

If one's opinion of balance were absolute, rather than subjective, everyone would agree on it. The fact that we're having the discussion means that "balance" is all about opinion. QED

That is a fallacy. Your argument is a self-refuting idea.

Moving on.

A unit/model that can work for multiple factions has to be costed carefully, because if the model is versatile beyond it's cost then it will take it's place in a disproportional amount of lists compared to similar models.

If it brings about benefit greater than it's cost then don't you think we have a problem?

Isn't the whole point of the point-cost system to promote equality amongst different lists? If something is wrong with the point system or something pulls more weight than it's cost in the point system, then it can be considered under-costed or inaccurately costed.

It's because the leader is an officer and vital for the unit to function properly. Take her out and they are far less dangerous. They're basically a 5/8 unit but the leader has a 2 point premium.

Now that makes sense. Thanks.

[HeadHunter]

My argument is neither a fallacy, nor a self-refuting idea.

Let us begin with your premise: That unbalance exists. If so, then which characters, units, or factions are unbalanced? If what you say is true, you should receive universal agreement. We won't have one group saying they're overpowered, another saying that they are underpowered, and yet a third claiming the opposite side is the unbalanced one.

But you're still considering the "undercosted" model's price in a vacuum, and as long as you do, you won't understand my entire point. So there's no point in discussing it with you further.

[PG_LunarSol]

It's like they knew how powerful they were in a 6 man unit so they costed them at 7...
..but then they decided it's not so bad if there are MORE OF THEM and made the full unit 10. Is there another unit with that much of a discount for going in a full unit?

Croe's are the same 7/10. Sam and the Devil Dogs are also a slightly non standard 5/7 and I don't think there's many 10 man units with Boomhowler's 6/9 breakdown. My assumption is that it has to do with the character officer that leads these units. PP charged a little more for these figures, which is a cost that goes entirely into the min unit, as that's all you'd need to take that figure.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Because the Champs get the Krielstone aura and Fell Caller buffs mostly. Alone they aren't all that special, but buffed up they are amazing. Gatormen just don't get as many options for external buffs, which is why their self buffing is so much better.

Oh I'm aware. I play trolls and minions, and in the context of a trollblood list, I'd still rather have unbuffed gators than buffed champs