The Torch Tactica

[Revamp]

The Torch Tactica

“Well, someone has to do it!”
~Famous last words of many a man




Preface

First off, a word to those of you who hate or dislike Torch. If you don't like him, don't complain here about why you don't like him. Every jack has something to bring to the table, and every way to play him can be done nearly the same by another jack. Sorry for that if you're here because you like him. If that's the case, please read on and I hope this will prove helpful to you because Torch is, for lack of a better word, unique. Even for a character jack. He is the sum parts of a question that no one seems to have asked, according to most of the forum. He is much maligned and, don't let it fool you, he does have times when he seems just... not up to snuff. That does not, however, mean he's bad. In fact, he's one of our best jacks. Certainly no Beast 09 or Extremoth, but certainly better in some aspects than most jacks. He's like a combination of several different jacks, and a wonderful tool box. In fact, i'd say he's at least twice as useful most days as a Spriggan, but then again the Spriggan has reach so we won't go into that. Instead, we'll dive into the odds and ends that is Torch.

The Stats

His stats are, suffice it to say, great. High Mat, Better Rat than we're used to, and the standard stats elsewhere. He suffers no weird draw backs to his stats and has 34 Health boxes. On the whole, he's got better total stats than any of our other jacks.

The Weapons

Torch has three weapons: A short range spray, an open fist on par with a Kodiak, and the Decimator's Rip saw. These three weapons are great, and have a lot of uses. First off, since he has an open fist, he has access to all power attacks but two handed throw. The rip saw, just like on his cousin the decimator, has high pow and insane power. If it makes contact with something, your opponent won't be likely to have that something next turn. Instead they'll have bloody pulp or a wreck marker. The flamethrower, as you might expect, causes the continuous fire effect. You might ask “Why the hell did they give a flamethrower to a jack that had crappy rat like that?” To this i'd answer: “Cause burning stuff is fun.” But really, it is a great weapon. Situational, but every attack counts and 3 initial attacks, one of which can cause a continuous effect guaranteed if it hits, is something we don't have elsewhere in Khador. Not only that, but we have no other Jacks that can bring a spray to the table. Aoe's we got, Dozer's we got, but sprays we don't have but him to bring. It makes him quite adept at eating both infantry and jacks.

The Abilities

Torch has a strong subset of options to bring to the table. First off, the solids: he has Gunfighter and Virtuoso. Now I know some of you are knew to the game and don't know what that means, so i'll spell it out. The first says you can shoot your gun at people while engaged in melee. The second says you can use your weapons and guns in the same activation. This basically means that Torch can eat everything around him with his saw, then turn and burn the guys behind them. Next is something you'll only use trying to get up the field, usually. Speaking of fire, he's immute to it. And corrosion. Nothing doing those damage types can hurt him, so throw him at Cryx or Menoth and watch them cringe. He also has Relentless Charge, which means when he charges he has pathfinder, so run him through a forest and surprise the hell out of whatever is on the other side.

Now then, Torch has a * Action called Smoke Bombs. This basically says that he gets to put a cloud up within an inch of him. Its pretty useless on paper, but in practice it has a few uses. While in the cloud you get a bonus to defense against ranged attacks, and it also blocks line of sight to things behind it. Its pretty good for hiding solos and what not, such as a Koldun Lord or even your caster in a pinch. Its usually used to help him get up the field without taking too much incoming fire: remember, with superiority on him that brings him up to 14 defense at ranged!

Speaking os Superiority, he's gonna get that sometimes cause of another ability he has: Special Issue Strakhov. That means he's basically owned by Kommander Strakhov, so he's good to field with him. He can be brought in any special tier lists he gets, and if he ever gets a epic or your playing him in a campaign, he can be bonded to you. Lastly, we come to the ability that makes the Ripsaw such a devastating weapon: sustained attack.

Now then, I want you to think about it. Its a big freaking rotary saw, so whatever you cut with it it doesn't get chopped with like an ax. You shove it in and keep it in till you've cut whatever it is in half. Thats basically what sustained attack is. It says that if you hit with the rip saw, then you hit automatically with all later attacks against that model while using the ripsaw. Your guaranteed to hit. So load Torch up with 3 focus and watch him cut things in half.

[Revamp]

The Casters and Synergies


Strakov:

Obviously they have some synergy. Like the man himself and his komandos, Torch is immune to fire and corrosion. You can camp him and the caster next to bloat thralls and they can't do a damn thing to him. He benefits a lot from the feat, although he already has pathfinder on charges. He's a good target for overrun, so that he can dig himself further into the enemy lines and always have something to saw at. He's also good with sentry, so that you can burn things getting too close to you (though there are quite a few better targets, if he's still alive and they aren't he's at least better than Strakov himself.) Also, you can use occultation to get him up the field mostly unharmed since Torch is a big target for ranged fire. An interesting interaction you can do is to use Sentry to give Torch a form of retaliation. With Sentry up you can wait for people to try to charge Torch and kill him, and as they do, before they get to attack, you get to shoot them with flamethrower point blank in the face. Scary stuff!

Also a tip by ReaverQueen: "I suppose you could Cinderbomb Torch, then walk over and pop a smoke cloud, in order to pair up 3" AOE clouds to try and block LOS. I'd bring along a Kodiak to add to it. 9" wide wall of smoke isn't too bad."

Rating: 7/10

Karchev the Terrible:

Probably my favorite guy to take Torch with. He helps him in all sorts of ways. First off, the Smoke bombs effect can help with the vulnerablility of the Karchev Powerslide by blocking line of sight to the big guy. The Kodiak can do this just as well, but it does a damage roll to your caster for doing so, no reason to do that. Second, he's absolutely evil under Unearthly Rage. Boosted damage and Attack rolls on all melee attacks? That's like saysing “Just make that ripsaw eat two jacks instead of one.” Put a focus or two on him to buy attacks and you'll never have to worry about that enemy again. Finally, and this is a tricky thing that most people won't expect: The turn after a powerslide, throw Torch deep into your enemy. Like right in his infantry. Then, cast eruption at torch from behind. He's almost always hit, and can't take damage from it since its fire based. However, it puts an aura around him that says “Come get me and burn in hell.” All models entering the aoe left around Torch will take pow 14 damage rolls. Its one of those things people don't expect, but can do a lot of damage, especially in mangled metal games where both Torch and Karchev can really shine.

Rating: 10/10

pSorcha:

Feat says you autohit, plus the fog raises your defense. Also, boundless charge delivers your friend Torch to your enemy with targeted precision. Not a lot of other synergies here, but she doesn't do a lot for anyone really.

Rating 5/10

eSorcha:

Now we're talking. First off... you'll be killing a lot of things here. I suggest him as a good target for Shatterstorm. Why? Nothing kills enemies like Torch. You'll quickly find he's annihilated an entire unit with Shatterstorm on him. Feat turn should go like this.”Clear a path toward the caster or whatever it is you really, really want to die. Cast Boundless Charge on Torch, feat, and watch that something turn into a bloody mist.

Rating: 8/10

pIrusk:

Not much. Irusk does have superiority, so thats a good target for him. Also, cause of inhospitable ground, Torch is suddenly a very fast jack compared to your opponents. Still, Irusk is a troop guy. If you take Torch, take him as his only Jack usually.

Rating 4/10

eIrusk:

Slightly better prospects for Torch, but at the same time not so. Irusk has a bond, so you should be taking a non-character jack before taking Torch to make use of it. He also has energizer, so he can reposition Torch outside his his smoke cloud, blocking line of sight to him rather than just raising his defense. It also helps him get up the field a bit better. He also has Tactical supremacy, and if you want to use it on Torch, you can put him pretty damn far up field first turn. The only problem is that it'll be a pretty expensive turn so you might want to wait to use it till second turn. Anyway, you'd simply have to Use energizer to move Torch and Irusk up 3 inches for 3 focus, then cast Tactical Supremacy on him if he doesn't already have it. Charge Torch up field at whatever his target is, let him eat it, and then at the end of the turn he'll back up 3 inches giving him breathing room. However, this can also cause you to take freestrikes or get counter charged, so be careful with it. Under FFE, as I've stated in other threads, torch is really amazing. He gets the equivalent of Powerful Shot on his spray, making it quite a devastating force in melee or close quarters. Might be better used on other models, but if you're hotswapping FFE he's a good choice later in the game.

And now, a tip by Gladius: "Unless you're planning on Energizing yourself out of the smoke bomb, place it to one side of Torch. He's still within the cloud effect, granting him the +2 defense against ranged attacks, and between his large base and the cloud, you've got a 4.5" block to line of sight. If you place the cloud in front of Torch, then you're only going to get the benefit of the 3" cloud."

Rating 7/10

pVlad:

Signs and portents, Boundless Charge, and that Feat... what can be said that hasn't been already said? Vlad makes everything better. He's awesome with Vlad.

Rating 8/10

eVlad:

This one's a bit different. If you really wanna take him with eVlad over Drago, or alongside Drago, you have to realize two things: Vlad offers him basically nothing, and Vlad doesn't have a lot of focus to send his way. Evlad is about the infantry, and really, he should be. However, under Assail, he'll shine spectacularly. Its like having him under a permanent Boundless Charge. He'll charge for free, every turn, at +2 Movement, and he naturally has pathfinder. That means that if you can spare the focus he needs to kill things, you can basically turn him into a big deadly pinball that ricochets between targets every turn. As for Hand of Fate, its an upkeep Signs and Portents. It's awesome, but better served on a unit or Drago.

Rating 7/10

LVlad

There's a couple of things here I like. First off, his feat with Torch is pretty great. You get to charge someone with the fist, move 2 inches and saw them to pieces, move two more inches, and then you get to choose: do you want to move further in, or move back? If you move further in, you can buy more attacks and such against the next thing down the line. You don't get to use the flamethrower to sidestep, but its quite good if you decide to retreat 2" instead to give you a greater range on the spray. After all this, you get to run back either 4 or 6 inches, depending on your sidestep choices, assuming on whether you killed anyone. So Torch is among the best jacks we have for this feat.

Feat aside, there are a few things that make Torch good with LVlad. 1, he has infernal machine. Now, there is a case to be made that this is legitamately better on reach due to the terror, but in the case of torch, terror is something to just count as help. The real meat is the speed and mat bonus, bringing him to speed 6, charge 9, and MAT 9. If you think thats not crazy good, you're definitely used to a different faction. You should never miss with Torch under Infernal Machine! And of course, once again, he has Hand of Fate... so put it on a unit, or hot swap it between a unit and Torch if someone else has infernal machine. Plus LVlad can keep Torch from getting shot, meaning he will get much further up the field without damage. All in all, great jack for LVlad!

8/10

Zerkova

Another odd case. Zerkova gives no direct help to her jacks, but she is a good candidate for Torch. Under Watcher, like a guard dog, he'll eat your opponent alive. Any unit, jack, or caster that gets near Zerkova will get burned or sawed. The real question is which one to do. Personally, I decide by how many models you can hit. If its only one model coming for the caster, I usually ripsaw its face off with full boosts. On the other hand, if its a unit, you can move near them, fire a fully boosted spray at them (effectively like having powerful shot) and eat that unit alive. Any stragglers get to burn to death and are ignored or hit by a force blast. Speaking of which Torch can use force blast to his advantage if you can spare the focus expenditure. Put a focus on Torch and charge him into the enemy lines. He'll eat at things your opponent will no doubt miss, and after words cast force blast. Now all the models that were left, however few they might be, are spread thin and leave a big whole in their army you can exploit to kill the enemy caster.

Rating: 6/10, but as a Watcher Candidate: 10/10

[Continued Farther Down]

[Nebo]

Energiser, Superiority and FFE have no use with Torch? Sure.

[swirly]

Just had an idea about torch with eIrusk.

Advance forward, pop smoke 1" in front, energizer 1" back out of the cloud to prevent LOS. Unless I'm mistaken, this should be ok.

[OrsusSmash]

Just had an idea about torch with eIrusk.

Advance forward, pop smoke 1" in front, energizer 1" back out of the cloud to prevent LOS. Unless I'm mistaken, this should be ok.

That would work just fine. I do something similar with Overrun every once in awhile with Strakov (combine it with Cinder Bombs for a really low tech smoke wall,) and I'd wager it'd be much more useful with an effect that didn't have a trigger (i.e. need to kill an enemy for it to go off.) Heck, you don't even need to spend the full 3 to get him behind the cloud. I think just 1 would do it, based on how you have to place the template.

Energizer in general would be nice for Torch, as his biggest problem is usually getting there; once he gets a hold of something, he usually does just fine (especially if it's a high DEF target for his saw.) Those extra 3" of movement would help a lot in allowing him to get the drop on his target.

[swirly]

I thought so. 1 extra inch should get him out of the cloud (2" outside the 1.5" radius). Torch out of LOS would be awesome for board denial. As long as he's outside of opponents walking threat range, he would make a large part of the board very dangerous to leave anything valuable, with the saw and a 10.5" threat range due to energizer.

[Revamp]

Sorry, didn't notice they got combined together. It was about 5 am when i wrote this so... yeah, let me go update for eIrusk. Edit: After adding the Irusk parts the post was too big, so Continuing from the above below this post.

[Revamp]

Casters and Synergies - Continued

pButcher:

Ah, the Butcher. The man who makes everything die a little bit faster and a whole lot messier. As you might have guessed, the Butcher is great with Torch. Though many say Full throttle is a trap, it accomplishes a very nice thing for you: it says you'll hit. Not just torch, but the whole battlegroup. And of course, our dear friend the free charge has a part in this as well. Field him alongside a Kodiak and a Berserker for hilarity. Also, I would recommend Fury be on Torch. It raises his fist to pow 19, on par with the Jugger's Axe, and the rip saw goes up to a whopping 21 with sustained attack. If your not drooling at the damage potential of that, you haven't been playing torch right. And of course, the feat gives you an extra dice of damage. All in all, Torch and Butcher are buddies. He brings out the damage potential to extravagant levels.

Rating: 8/10

eButcher:

Now this one is a tough call. You can alternately say that Torch is either awesome or terrible with eButcher, and it will really depend on one thing: how do you play eButcher? Do you play him with all his insanity, up the field, killing things himself like a chainsaw of rapacious destruction? Or do you hang him back a bit, let the dice dictate your focus, and play him with some tactics? If you play him the first way, you'll always have the focus to make Torch the second most evil thing in your party. (Right behind the Butcher himself) If you don't, you probably would be better of with a different jack. Maybe Drago or something like that. If you play him like the embodiment of page 5, then you will find Torch will be your best friend. Torch can do the one thing Butcher doesn't do: be in two places at once. Now, I will say this. You can do the following better with any jack with reach, but you may not do it as well. It depends on your tastes here. Now then, to make Torch be Butcher Mk II, you simply have to cast Ravager, Fury, and Boundless Charge on him. He will charge up the field as scary as he was under pButcher... but will be under berserk, which means he'll kill and kill and kill till he runs out of focus. And kill he will. In fact, second to Beast 09, he's probably your best target to make sure the feat turn will be a guaranteed assassination by removal of the opponents entire army.

Rating: 8/10

The Old Witch

The only thing the old witch has that makes her useful for Torch is Augury. It lets you always have line of sight for Torch to charge, and that means a lot. Other than that though, she doesn't do a lot for him. There are better jacks for the Witch.

4/10

Harkevich

And at last we come to the end. Ol' Hark has a lot to give any jack with a ranged weapon and the will to kill, but there are things about him that make Torch great. First off, he gives Torch pathfinder all the time, instead of just when charging. That means that when you don't have the focus to get him there, he can still get there himself. On top of that he has Escort, which makes all your jacks faster by +2 movement. That puts him at an effective speed 6, and nets him the coveted 9 inch charge our jacks live for. On top of that, he has broadsides. That might not seem like much, but it means you'll get to fire that tastely spray an extra time a turn, giving more chances at setting things on fire. He also has jump start, which, while usually used to pick up your jacks after a bad Kreoss feat turn, can also mean you get to make Torch come in from surprising places to charge your opponent. Its rarely cast, so people forget about it, but it lets you change your jacks facing for just 1 focus. A nice one if an important solo or the opponents caster is behind you. Turn and charge that thing with joy as it realizes it wasn't safe after all!
Also, under Hark, you get the full use of the feat: you get to spray attack, then charge. This means that, unlike most times the spray is fired, you might hit more than one model. Plus, armor 23 is pretty damn hard to eat for your opponent the following turn. Lastly, you have Fortune. This is an upkeep that lets you reroll missed attack rolls. Might seem better cast on another guy, but it makes you eeriely accurate, even on your spray attacks. You'll get better use out of it on a unit, but if theirs no one else he's not a bad choice.

Rating: 8/10

Summary

Torch is someone that you take when you want your enemy to hate you. If he's in melee, you can make sure something is dead. If he's just out of melee, he can set your opponent aflame. He's hard to kill, makes a ton of attacks, and very reliable. He might not always get his 10 points back, but he'll certainly do a damn close job of it as long as he got in range of the enemy. He is a cannonball waiting to leave the cannon and reek havoc upon your opponents army. He might be a bit focus hungry, but you can be sure that every focus will be used to its greatest effectiveness. Loose the Torch upon your enemy, and see his face as his army his ripped to shreds!

[Joasht]

pIrusk:

Not much. Irusk does have superiority, so thats a good target for him. He also has energizer,

Energiser, Superiority and FFE have no use with Torch? Sure.

Eh, pIrusk doesn't have Energizer to begin with.....

I've always wondered about the Torch, frankly when I first read its stats I had a far more positive feeling about him than the forums, but till this day I've not tried it (since I don't have the model and don't like to proxy). My only concern is that it will be my new "Strakov"; namely something I really loved on paper, absolutely wanted to play, but then when I did, realized why people were complaining he was boring.

[microdave]

Torch has a 6 inch spray, no reach, and will very, very rarely make up for his 10 points.

My Torch tactica: Find out why you wanted Torch in a list in the first place, then take the better Khador jack that does that job.

95% of the things you listed in your tactica apply to any jack in the faction. Stay away from this really overpriced Menoth jack.

[Revamp]

Torch has a 6 inch spray, no reach, and will very, very rarely make up for his 10 points.

My Torch tactica: Find out why you wanted Torch in a list in the first place, then take the better Khador jack that does that job.

95% of the things you listed in your tactica apply to any jack in the faction. Stay away from this really overpriced Menoth jack.

Be that as it may, these are all things Torch does. It wasn't written for people who hate torch, it was written for people who might want to run torch or people that like torch (what a thought! people like torch!?) so if you don't like it, that's fine. Stick to Beast 09 and Behemoth. However, for those of us who like the jack some tips are always appreciated, thus a Tactica needed writing. Write one for the guys you like if you wish, and I'll come read that.

[ReaverQueen]

I suppose you could Cinderbomb Torch, then walk over and pop a smoke cloud, in order to pair up 3" AOE clouds to try and block LOS. I'd bring along a Kodiak to add to it. 9" wide wall of smoke isn't too bad.

[Tyr852]

Nice write up , with good points and break down of uses and caster selection. If we could sticky this I would certainly recommend it.

[Wisible]

Speaking os Superiority, he's gonna get that sometimes cause of another ability he has: Special Issue Strakhov. That means he's basically owned by Kommander Strakhov, so he's good to field with him. He can be brought in any special theme forces he gets, and if he ever gets a epic or your playing him in a campaign, he can be bonded to you

Can't he be bonded to Strak anyway? I thought that was the point: load him up with 4 focus, upkeep superiority, pop feat, watch your opponent cry. Old Witch is bonded to scrappy and she doesn't have an epic version.

Anyway, fantastic write up! I've always loved Torch and your points about he and pButcher are dead on!

[Joasht]

Can't he be bonded to Strak anyway? I thought that was the point: load him up with 4 focus, upkeep superiority, pop feat, watch your opponent cry. Old Witch is bonded to scrappy and she doesn't have an epic version.

Anyway, fantastic write up! I've always loved Torch and your points about he and pButcher are dead on!

Special issue doesn't give you a bond in normal games. So no 4 focus Torch....

[DoktorVivi]

I really like the Karchev interaction with Eruption. That's pretty damn cool, like an upgraded Vent Steam.

Also, Harkevich! That does look like a fun combination... I'm going to have to try that out.

[swirly]

I think you've done an awesome job of this thread. It's really made me want to give him a shot.

Of course there are better jacks, but that's not what this is about. (the less common jacks need some love in the tactics department too )
I applaud you for tackling one of the tricky ones.

+1 to this for a sticky

[Althrion]

Something i would like to add, for the Strakhov part. A neat trick to get good chargerange with torch, without the feat, is to cast overrun on him. Together with superiority he moves 6". Then he uses his flamer, kills something and moves additional 6". Thanks to virtuoso he can still do his initials in melee and wreck havoc.

[PG_PlagueZombie]

Nice articel with some valid points

The Kodiak can do this just as well, but it does a damage roll to your battle group for doing so, no reason to do that

Doesn't Vent Steam only damage living models?

[PG_Draxos]

adding to the stickie.

[NChomsky3d]

Torch has a 6 inch spray, no reach, and will very, very rarely make up for his 10 points.

My Torch tactica: Find out why you wanted Torch in a list in the first place, then take the better Khador jack that does that job.

95% of the things you listed in your tactica apply to any jack in the faction. Stay away from this really overpriced Menoth jack.

I completely disagree. I played against a 3Gaspy list that had a full unit of banethralls and tartarus, mechanithralls, bile thralls and necro surgeon, plus the character unit (withershadow combine?). Torch killed Tartarus, took out several banethralls over a couple turns with the spray, and finally killed 3Gaspy. Pathfinder was a huge help, the high MAT (up to 9 with Superiority) helped hit things, and the high POW of his weapons wrecked face. I could probably have done something similar with another 10pt jack (Spriggan or Ivan), but I'd be hard pressed to do it with a cheaper one.

[Gladius]

You didn't specifically mention this, but unless you're planning on Energizing yourself out of the smoke bomb, place it to one side of Torch. He's still within the cloud effect, granting him the +2 defense against ranged attacks, and between his large base and the cloud, you've got a 4.5" block to line of sight. If you place the cloud in front of Torch, then you're only going to get the benefit of the 3" cloud.

[Revamp]

Nice articel with some valid points



Doesn't Vent Steam only damage living models?

Good Question! Yes, vent steam only hurts living models. However, when your doing it with karchev in the side arms brick, people tend to forget that karchev is living... which means if you make a mistake and vent right next to karchev you hit your own caster with it. Thats why Torch's cloud is nice for this, because he doesn't do a damage roll.

Also, aiming to update this for LVlad soon!

[Wulfenstein]

Very nice tactica. Maybe this will motivate me to finally put the model together instead of letting it sit in the game closet haha.

Seriously though, excellent job on it.

[Revamp]

Thanks a ton! I'm going to work on updating everyones tips and ideas into it today while i'm working on the LVlad synergies. As for torch himself, just try proxying him a few times. I'm sure you'll find he's as good as it sounds.

[Sinsation]

The Virtuoso that is Torch!

One of the great abilities about Torch that doesn't get sold enough, and which has been more beneficial in play is virtuoso. On paper this ability doesn't merit much attention. You get to make ranged and melee attacks in the same activation, and can make both initials. Combined with gunfighter, this lets you spray in melee, but with a RAT 5 pow 12 flamethrower. While this gives you a free initial attack, a more tricksy use of this ability is that it allows you to buy a ranged attack, if you lose your initials or sacrifice them for a power attack. This gives us the ability to do tricks that before only the behemoth was capable of.

The trampling gun!
A simple tactic. After trampling, you can spend one focus to buy an additional ranged attack since you have ROF 1 but have sacrificed all of your initial attacks. This requires at least two focus in many cases: One to trample, and one to buy a ranged attack. The behemoth does a similar ability, but since it moves and shoots, drops from rat 4 on the shot to rat 2. With Torch we have a shorter ranged gun, but we do get RAT 5 and a spray on the ability, taking us from +3 rat compared to the behemoth to +8 rat, if we're spraying down an enemy target in melee and cover.

The charge shot!
If you're able to get off the charge on an enemy and still line up a good flamethrower shot, you can do the charge shot. Since your initials aren't sacrificed, this requires only the focus or free charge to use. When ending your charge though, you'll want to line yourself up properly to hit the enemy and your spray target, or to be sure you can kill the enemy in melee. If you have to buy attacks to free yourself from melee before shooting, you'll have to buy that additional ranged attack, so be ready with the focus!
Note that if you charge a friendly model, you don't have to target them with a spray, so you can aim as you please; With MAT 7 however, be ready to kiss that charge target goodbye. Doing this gives you an additional 3" of movement on your spray.

The slamshot!
The slamshot is like the charge shot. Either target a friendly or enemy model, and slam them. If you end your slam in base to base, your spray will hit regardless of slam distance. If you're able to slam your spray target, or slam something over your spray target, then the KD will make your spray nearly guaranteed to hit. The slam will eat all of your initial attacks however, so you'll have to spend a focus to buy the flamethrower attack. With three focus and a slam into your target of a friendly or enemy model, you can 1) slam 2) buy ranged attack and 3) boost damage, also setting them on fire.

Doesn't the Behemoth already do something like this, but better?
All three of those tactics work similar to the behemoth's subcortex, but with a difference. You trade off distance compared to bombards as well as 2 power in exchange for a bonus to hit your target, although you'll have to spend focus to buy the ranged attacks too. As a result it is more situational, but does give you a trick your opponent won't always expect. It does require torch to be closer to the enemy than the behemoth, but the ability to shoot at RAT 5 without a penalty for moving or being in melee encourages you to be up close.

Synergies!
How does this work with our casters? With our common speed buffs of boundless charge and superiority, you'll be able to hit targets 15" away (9" charge, slam, or trample, and 6" spray), hidden behind enemy lines, or otherwise protected from ranged attacks with stealth or cover/concealment/melee. Strakhov provides a very large possible range for this, over two feet away with superiority, overrun, and his feat if you pull that off. Most of the synergies are pretty straightforward, but the only other thing that sticks out is that if you have fire for effect on him from Irusk 2, it will affect these sprays, as even though they aren't initial attacks, they are the first ranged attack of the activation.

His flamethrower will sometimes do the job by itself, but usually you'll want other models to attack your target as well. Just don't forget that RAT 5 pow 12 spray on your jack. Boosted pow 12 shots? They kill casters.

[Havock]

So, just to raise a point you can expand upon -and for completeness sake-, how does he stack up to the Spriggan and Black Ivan?

Because they are his direct 'competitors' in points level. And the Decimator of course, almost forgot that one.

I personally feel that not having reach and still being pricey hurts Torch a lot. That and having no decent ranged weapon, which would have compensated things a bit. Say, if he had a bigger spray rather than a 'token' minispray.

[Wisible]

So, just to raise a point you can expand upon -and for completeness sake-, how does he stack up to the Spriggan and Black Ivan?

It's not a great comparison, IMO. All jacks are better or worse depending upon the caster and player trying to utilize them. What I will say is Torch stacks up well against the numerous jacks I've used it to destroy.

[Matthaeus]

Thought I may as well give some feedback as a non-partisan reader...

Be that as it may, these are all things Torch does. It wasn't written for people who hate torch, it was written for people who might want to run torch or people that like torch (what a thought! people like torch!?) so if you don't like it, that's fine. Stick to Beast 09 and Behemoth. However, for those of us who like the jack some tips are always appreciated, thus a Tactica needed writing. Write one for the guys you like if you wish, and I'll come read that.

You said something to that effect in your introduction. Honestly, it was a turnoff.

I am not a Khador player, and I clicked on this thread because I was genuinely curious about the model concerned. I didn't come to read because I "like" that model, and I didn't come to decide whether I loved it or hated it. I don't hate or love a toy steambot, I wonder what it does and what purpose it can serve to me, the kind of things tactical analyses adress.

In that regard, your introduction sounds polarised and not very objective. So apparently, some people don't like Torch for some reason, but those reasons are glossed over and you threaten to report those people should they intrude in this thread. A thread basically written "by and for those who like Torch". That sounds more like the manifesto of a fan club than like the factual analysis I expect from a tactica. The impression given is that you intend to sell me a glass half full while insisting it's (half) FULL and not-half-empty-at-all. Sadly, after reading everything I can't shake that impression.

It's a pity to be partisan about something you like.

[Revamp]

I know how you feel Mattheus, but unfortunately its sort of necessary. There are a fair amount of kitbashers who'd just post "torchsucks 10chars" and that'd be it. Its the sort of thing that i don't want to see in here. Sure, i like the model but my main point is to get people to give it a chance. They often don't on these forums based on the fact that it gets so much bad press, often from people who've only read it and never fielded it. If a man won't give it a chance cause because other people who've never played it hate it, then it'll never get any chances!

[Havock]

I think Torch's biggest asset and drawbacksare his ****y things. I can see him work in a multi-list format where you go like 'well, cryx, legion or protectorate are going to hate this thing', I think that despite his utility, he offers not enough for his 10 points.
Sure he will wreck face when he gets the jump on something, but practically all of our jacks do that. A juggernaut with 3 focus is very good at making problems it can touch go away.

[Pablofactor]

There is nothing wrong with Torch, he just happens to cost a few points more than what people want to pay for him. He happens to offer me what I want in a faction where taking one jack is often the norm, which is plenty of utility.

With 5 or 6 free jack points you have to take a jack in your list. I rarely see people just taking a Berserker because they aren't willing to spend more points. What I want from my Khador heavy is utility and reliability. All Khador jacks are giant can openers, so I'd rather take a jack that performs well under the toughest conditions. The increased MAT and RAT, the immunity to Corrosion and Fire, the three initial attacks (plus multiple potential spray targets), the ability to cause Continuous Fire, Pathfinder when Charging plus the 15" threat range (Boundless Charge or Superiority) with the spray after a Charge, and his ability to provide concealment or block line of sight to others.

Paying an extra point or two, or even three for a jack that is simply more reliable seems fine to me.

[mcdermott]

on the subject of old witch + torch. Weald secrets + his cloud effect make for a nasty warjack vs shooting lists.

[Havock]

There is nothing wrong with Torch, he just happens to cost a few points more than what people want to pay for him. He happens to offer me what I want in a faction where taking one jack is often the norm, which is plenty of utility.

With 5 or 6 free jack points you have to take a jack in your list. I rarely see people just taking a Berserker because they aren't willing to spend more points. What I want from my Khador heavy is utility and reliability. All Khador jacks are giant can openers, so I'd rather take a jack that performs well under the toughest conditions. The increased MAT and RAT, the immunity to Corrosion and Fire, the three initial attacks (plus multiple potential spray targets), the ability to cause Continuous Fire, Pathfinder when Charging plus the 15" threat range (Boundless Charge or Superiority) with the spray after a Charge, and his ability to provide concealment or block line of sight to others.

Paying an extra point or two, or even three for a jack that is simply more reliable seems fine to me.

One, actually. At 9 pooints he would be great, right now he competes with
1- Beast 09 who is only one point more
2- Black Ivan, who is a nice warjack for pIrusk (DEF14 'jack. Yes. With Dodge. Yes.)
3- Spriggan, offering reach and flares.

I personally do not consider a tiny weenie spray to be actually worth it for taking his 'threat range' into account. Sure it is nice when you can toast a crucial solo with it but more often than not it is going to miss anyway.

I don't think he is -bad-, and I might just try him.
Funnily enough he might do nicely under Zerkova: He already doesn't give a flying crap about purges, strafes and whatever fiery doom the protectorate is shooting at you, and now they also can't throw spells at him.

[Beest]

I haven't yet put torch on the table as it is hard to go past beast. But i have a strak list i'm going to give him a crack in someday soon.

that said, good write up!

[HRM]

I haven't tried Torch, but he looks great on paper to me. I like versatility.

[Pablofactor]

I personally do not consider a tiny weenie spray to be actually worth it for taking his 'threat range' into account. Sure it is nice when you can toast a crucial solo with it but more often than not it is going to miss anyway.

Continuous Fire damage rolls happen before Warcasters get all their focus back. Which means if you keep one on fire for a few turns, especially a low armored one, you can do a significant amount of damage or even kill it.

Trust me, nobody is expecting Torch to light them on fire from 15" away, also it's not measly, those POW 12's that can be boosted can really hurt things, regardless of your opinion of the range.

There are a number of ways to increase the chances the spray hits, and with some casters it becomes easy.

[ShockwaveIIC]

The Virtuoso that is Torch!
Combined with gunfighter, this lets you spray in melee, but with a RAT 5 pow 12 flamethrower. While this gives you a free initial attack, a more tricksy use of this ability is that it allows you to buy a ranged attack, if you lose your initials or sacrifice them for a power attack. This gives us the ability to do tricks that before only the behemoth was capable of.

The trampling gun!

The charge shot!

The slamshot!

Are you sure this is legal? I'm guessing it is because of Zerkova's Feat allows buying, but I'm not convinced. Is there a Infernal link for it?

[Sinsation]

Are you sure this is legal? I'm guessing it is because of Zerkova's Feat allows buying, but I'm not convinced. Is there a Infernal link for it?

It's been answered many times in the rules forum, almost always because of Blitzer and Torch. Most don't have an infernal commenting, but here ya go
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?60414-BLitzer-question&highlight=blitzer

A model with a Rate of Fire greater than 1 may make 1 initial attack and would have to be forced or spend a focus/fury to make the additional attacks up to the munber listed for Rate of Fire. Since the Blitzer has not yet made a ranged attack during it's activation, and it made a power attack, it can still make a ranged attack but because the Power Attack means the model does not have any initial attacks, it has to be forced to make the ranged attack because it is an additional attack.

You can also use your open fist to throw a model into another and then spray them both, or throw your target into something to knock him down. You have to be more careful with throws though, since if you miss your scatter could leave the model out of range for shooting. That's why I stuck with the other three for the list.

[Juggernautie]

Personally, for me:

List 1, OW with Scrapjack / Behemoth / Spriggan.
*For this list, I feel the Spriggan is better than Torch. This is due to reach, and to help other units target (Nyss/Widowmakers/Behemoth).

List2, Karchev with Torch / Juggernaut / Juggernaut.
*For this list, I feel Torch is better. No Behemoth due to character restrictions. No real shooting, so Spriggan is a waste. With Karchev/Tow being so fast, Torch in front to spray fire is great. Nothing like Torch / Karchev both spraying.

So for me, with character restrictions and if you don't have a shooting army to benefit from the Spriggan's Target help, I like the Torch. With Karchev, you are in deep with small bases on turn 2, so the flames are great.

I've not found my list 3 yet. But I do like Torch.