Menoth... how I hate them

[Tossy]

Hi Guys,

I have never posted a thread about a specific faction before but they are the only ones that consistently give me trouble.

How the hell do we beat them. They have no damage buffs, lots of fire AoE's and jacks that crush ours. I have never come up against a more frustrating faction before (to play against that is)

I rarely get to play against them, so I only really see them in tournaments. They are always the 1 fight I lose too...

How do we do it?

[Marth]

For kickstarters: flanking works quite well. Especially Widowmakers & Co. have earned their value again and again. Eliminators and Kossites can be used, too. I found that the thing Menoth hates the most is rough terrain, so Irusk or a Gun Carriage will be beneficial too. Against certain lists, Assault Kommandos can be a regal PITA. If you really want to, Greylords and their sprays can be a real trouble to support clinging to their jacks, but then you should bring a mortar so they can't just sing "Ward".

[OrsusSmash]

Hi Guys,

I have never posted a thread about a specific faction before but they are the only ones that consistently give me trouble.

How the hell do we beat them. They have no damage buffs, lots of fire AoE's and jacks that crush ours. I have never come up against a more frustrating faction before (to play against that is)

I rarely get to play against them, so I only really see them in tournaments. They are always the 1 fight I lose too...

How do we do it?

Is there anything specific that is giving you trouble, or is it just general unfamiliarity with Menoth? I've fought against Menoth a ton, so I can give some insights at a general level:

1) Menoth lives and dies by their warjacks. Menite infantry aren't terrible by any stretch of the imagination, but they're largely defined by their strong defensive abilities. This is because their infantry are usually there to distract you from the real threat: those big, buffed up warjacks. Almost all of Menoth's support infrastructure is there to make their warjacks better, and it does a damn fine job. When fighting against Menoth, top priority should be given to mitigating their warjacks; those are very likely going to be the models that close out the game and/or make the big plays.

2) Menoth is fairly support oriented. Largely due to the need to buff their warjacks, but they also sometimes bring along stuff to buff up their infantry. Menoth's war engine runs on it's support, so if you can get to those support models, it takes a huge bite out of their ability to conduct business on their terms. Choir and Vassals take top priority, as they directly support the warjacks and protect them from damage; any reasonable effort you can put towards killing off these models is almost always worth it.

3) Menoth doesn't like rough terrain. Across the entire faction, I believe they have 3 in-faction ways to mitigate terrain, all wacaster based. What that means is if you can leverage difficult terrain (either on the table, or via Inhospitable Ground/Rift/Gun Carriage,) they have a helluva time getting through it efficiently. This is especially true of their warjacks; I think the only way they can gain Pathfinder is via Amon's Mobility or Testament's feat.

4) Menoth's warcasters are usually (relatively) squishy. Feora is probably the standout of durability, with DEF 15/ARM 17 as her base stats, but everyone else in the faction has a worse set of starting stats. Moreover, almost all Menite warcasters burn through a fair amount of focus to keep their offense going (either via spellcasting, upkeeps, or allocating to the battlegroup,) so they're not as likely to be camping themselves up to ultra-durable levels. With how far Khador can project threat, and how hard they can hit, it can sometimes be a lot easier to circumvent the nasty Menite battlegroup and go for the chewy center.

5) Denial, denial, denial! If you're planning on doing something, and you're not sure what special abilities that Menoth model has, the safe bet is that they have some ability that will make it harder/impossible for you to do what you're planning. Always ask about a model's abilities if you're not 100% sure what it does. A huge part of dealing with Menoth is unraveling their layers of protection, defense, and mitigation to actually get to the point where you're hitting/doing damage to them. Don't let the denial aspects of their faction frustrate you into making hasty choices; once you start building up momentum against Menoth, they crumble just like anyone else in the face of our offensive power.

That's the high level stuff; if you want more in-depth info/tips, I can add them later!

[Tyr852]

Widowmakers (Choir/vassal duty), Aiyana and Holt (Helps to negate passage and do more damage) either Eiryss and Harlan Versh (Upkeep hate/removal). My main opponents are Menoth so I feel the burn often , so much like Orsus it depends on what you are having issues with. The list that gives me the most issues is Amon + many dervish , so fast and cranks out silly damage even on a non feat turn.

[jandrese]

The only caveat I would add is that Rough Terrain isn't nearly as big of a deal as it used to be for Protectorate players. The Errant UA gives out pathfinder, Idrians (which you won't see much) are native pathfinder, Rhupert can give it out to any unit, Saxon Orrik can give it out to any unit or solo, any Mercenary unit with the Attendant Priest has Pathfinder when they need it, and Vindictus can give it out as a spell. Battle engines are also naturally pathfinders.

On the jack side this is still true though. Only Amon gives pathfinder to the jacks, and he's not a popular caster.

That said, there is more than one way to skin the cat. If you are planning on using Inhospitable Ground as your primary defense, don't be surprised if the big book of Menoth comes up and puts down a no-spell aura.

For a Protectorate player's perspective on this, Widowmakers don't frighten me most times. I have AoEs that will keep them from becoming too big of a threat. The Winterguard Deathstar is another issue. While they're susceptible to AoEs, there are just too many to kill before their boosted sprays are tearing apart my backfield. Kayazi are also a concern, but they are a little easier to manage outside of their minifeat turn. The Mortar Crew still terrifies me, although I can manage their target options by singing no-shooting on the jacks and abusing the fact they can't move and shoot to hide my support behind the jacks. Destroyers theoretically are as or more dangerous, but honestly that one shot is so expensive I'm always kind of glad when you take it. AoE3s are much easier to defend against than AoE4s. The Battle Engine should be pretty nasty too, but all of my local Khador players gave up on it when they discovered how fragile it is. One surprise is probably the Greylords. Magic ability 7 sprays are ridiculously good, and they can deliver themselves behind clouds if you do it right.

Jack wise I think Khador gets a bit of a short stick. Way too much SPD 4 without Reach in the faction, which is why it is good that so many casters have ways of buffing up the speed of your jacks. I'm still going to try to jam them up with infantry to keep you away from my jacks though. If I can force Beast09 or the Behemoth to trample to get at the Avatar, I've already won. I am going to try to use higher DEF infantry though, to capitalize on the general scarcity of MAT buffs for Khador jacks.

Things that don't scare me at all include Assault Kommandos--theoretically they are ideal against Protectorate with their fire immunity, but their laughably terrible damage output ruins them. Also single units of MoWST--they're just too slow and they have pretty disappointing damage output. Large numbers of MoW are terrifying though, because you can't bypass them if they're all of the army. Kossites also seem to have a damage output problem, especially beyond their ambush turn. Doomreavers aren't usually a major problem either, since I have tools for mitigating Berserk and those guys are really really squishy.

[Havock]

AK's are fine defensively. However, they also won't do a damn thing against the protectorate player, so they are just a speedbump.
They can't really hurt Exemplars and their MAT/RAT sucks too much to be able to take on higher DEF dudes.

Taking eSorscha against an Exemplar brick wall tends to end in tears though

[Tossy]

Ok I am resurrecting this because I am still a little afraid of them... leigon and Menoth are the only 2 armies that give me heaps of trouble. Everything I have tried has failed. I have the same problem with both armies good menoth/leigon players outshoot me with their Fire AoE's or in menoths case say i can't damage them and I die a little inside.

My tournament results skew quite a lot when I go against Menoth particularly. I have about a 50% win ratio against leigon but about a 25% against menoth... and those 25% are assassination.

Is there any more help out there in the forums?

[Auracco]

2) Menoth is fairly support oriented. Largely due to the need to buff their warjacks, but they also sometimes bring along stuff to buff up their infantry. Menoth's war engine runs on it's support, so if you can get to those support models, it takes a huge bite out of their ability to conduct business on their terms. Choir and Vassals take top priority, as they directly support the warjacks and protect them from damage; any reasonable effort you can put towards killing off these models is almost always worth it.

^This. The key to defeat Menoth is getting their support. Their jacks with choir buff and vassal support are just better than ours, without that support however they are not so scary. Their jack hit hard and are accurate, but they tend to be slow, some of their casters have ways to boost their speed but it's a minority. Menoth as an army tend to be slow and resilient, much more than khador. Play on our mobility to move around them and kill their support, don't be scared to trade model to kill some of their tools.

[ToAzT]

Just to reiterate everyone else, kill the support. Menoth is like a church. Kill all the people, the buildings, the income, and you've got the Pope and the priests standing there, without their support, making them much less powerful.

[Tyr852]

With out knowing what you like to play it's hard to say what is the weak point in the list , all the advice above is solid and with out making a hate list it's hard to say what to tweak .

[Iron Will]

AK's are fine defensively. However, they also won't do a damn thing against the protectorate player, so they are just a speedbump.
They can't really hurt Exemplars and their MAT/RAT sucks too much to be able to take on higher DEF dudes.

I disagree AKs are good at taking out high DEF as long as they have protection, and no MAT/RAT is needed to take out Exemplars.

The best way to deal with Menoth I have found is a T4 Strakhov list so that you can get the AK into the Menoth lines early, I would imagine pIrusk would work with the same list without the AD advantage from the T1 bonus. The other thing is Menoth likes handing out continuous fire but aren't that keen on recieving it........

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I have the same problem with both armies good menoth/leigon players outshoot me with their Fire AoE's or in menoths case say i can't damage them and I die a little inside.

Strakov..? He's a good 2nd or 3rd tourney caster anyway. I also found a gun carriage is effective with him, so you can also slow his jacks down with 3 (Sentry) rough terrain templates. Though AKs will be immune to a lot of the shooting, Strakov doesn't really do much for them, so depending on what infantry you like to take on your other casters I would probably go with something else rather than AKs. Doom reavers work well for freaking folk out until Strakovs jacks get in

Cheers,
Dave

[Joasht]

IFPs for their jacks and/or Kayazy for their support/caster and/or WG for almost everything except their jacks. Then cover the table with enough bodies to hope that even with all that automatic Fire, you still have enough bodies to be a threat. PoM armies tend to have a lower model count if they go Jack-heavy, so use that to your advantage. Run them at their shooty jacks if you have to, that eFeora-bonded Redeemer is a whole lot scarier when its stuck in melee.

The only main problem would be the Avatar, as you'd probably require some sort of damage buff to crack it reliably and it can't always be ignored since Gaze is fairly irritating. Thankfully, Khador has a lot of damage buffs...

[hoya4life3381]

Beating Menoth is more of a positional/tactical thing rather than a unit selection problem. Basically our infantry generally outclasses theirs, whereas their jacks outclass ours with the addition of Choir and Enliven (super pain!). In essence, it’s a pretty even fight and really puts your generalship to the test. It’s actually own of my favorite matchups.

The below advice assumes that the Menoth player is good at protecting his caster. If he isn't, then obviously that's the easiest way to take apart the Menoth chain.

I usually separate scenarios into two categories. The first category involves scenarios that are easily captured, define the flow of the game, and holding the objectives will either win you the game or force your opponent’s hand entirely. For these games, it still comes down to who goes first a lot particularly against Menoth. Menoth armies generally (granted there are exceptions!) are not designed to dislodge a dug-in opponent from an objective. So if you get first turn in these games, blitz the objective and force your Menoth opponent to do something that they are less comfortable with. While you may take some casualties from being in a bad position tactically, you’ve controlled the strategic pace of the game and dictated the course of action.

The second category of scenarios that are difficult to complete and assassination games I generally lump into one. In these situations, the Menoth player generally (again exceptions) does not have the impetus to push forward and will play the more conservative and careful style. In this case, I feel a lot of players fall into the trap of trying to rush and being overly aggressive and basically crash headfirst into the prepared Menoth wall.

Menoth, like I've stated before, is similar to a chainmail armor which is a set of tightly interwoven links. When the links are tight and compact, a sharp object cannot penetrate. However, if the links are spread out even a bit, then the sharp object has a free pass through the armor. How does this apply to Menoth?

Menoth basically stacks sets of short-ranged buffs on each of its models. Think Choir, Vassals, Reclaimers, etc. However, to apply the short-range buff, the source model must generally be in 5 to 6 inch range of the target model. Because most target models often “need/require” the buffs to be effective (not always the case), a lot of the Menoth player’s movement is predetermined and rather inflexible to maintain the required buff spacing. Menoth jacks are also very linked together because they are generally slow and not capable of alphastrike. Thus, most of the time Menoth has to pair 2 heavies in support of each other and also be within 5/6 inches of each other; one jack being the counter-striker that inflicts huge amount of pain with Choir/Enliven combos. This is especially true against Khador since most of their infantry even with weaponmaster is not credible at trashing our jacks so they must pair their heavies. Due to this, the Menoth army forms a predictable “block” of linked units aka chainmail.

So how do you as Khador take advantage of this? Basically, you have to “stretch” the chainmail. We are able to do this because our infantry and jacks are more autonomous than theirs and actually have a slight speed advantage when factoring in buffs. Either way, our army is more maneuverable and flexible since we don’t have to maintain the tight chain that they do. Thus, I generally have the most success when I adopt the classic Khadoran Hammer and Anvil and split my army accordingly. One half of my army (usually WG or IFP) advance pretty much deploys opposite the main Menoth castle. The other half fans out mildly on a flank, but careful not to spread too far out. If you spread too far out, then you won’t be able to still affect the center of the action. Also, YOUR ARMY still has to maintain integrity and support of each other. Remember how Menoth basically has to chain units 5-6 inches? I’d say that our units have to basically be around 7-9 inches from each other to support each other. It may not sound like much of a difference, but when you stretch this out over an entire army, it’s a huge difference. These games of inches goes a long way to determining who has the local advantage.

So now that you’re well-positioned and have stretched out your Menoth opponent across a broader front. As stated above, your army has the ability to perform more radical formation changes and movements than the Menoth one. When combined with a properly weighted and distanced flank, the opponent cannot be sure where along the front you will attack since you can more rapidly redeploy your assets. The Menoth player cannot usually make radical reforms due to the above buff chaining or need to maintain counter-strike support. Hence, you have a “local advantage” when you decide to attack. However, it’s generally better to take “small and safe” bites (like eating an elephant!) in these situations. Each “bite” you take out without losing too many resources increases your advantage from a positioning perspective (again local advantage) and strategically since you’re forcing the Menoth player to be more and more aggressive to “catchup”. Eventually, you will be able to hold the scenario or go for the assassination against you’re weakened opponent. This game involves such a matter of perception on both sides. Even if you are only a few key models down, it really forces your hand to do something.

I just want to mention solo-hunting for a second. If the opportunity presents itself to take out a juicy one WITHOUT diverting significant resources or will change the entire flow of the game, definitely go for it. However, simply solo-hunting against Menoth usually will not win you the game because they are much harder to take out on paper than in real life. Most Menoth players I know protect their support solos more carefully than the bread-and-butter units themselves! Thus, if you’re only goal is to hunt solos, you’re going to get pounded by the mainline units themselves. However, if you can control the action and pace of the game, you can beat them regardless of whether you go for the solos.

As I’ve often heard strategy described, it’s about applying your strengths to your opponent’s weakness and preventing the opposite. In scenario games that are highly defined by capture-able objectives, apply your strength of being slightly faster and more aggressive to force your opponent to need to be more aggressive and dislodge you which they are less comfortable with. In more open-ended games in terms of time, don’t crash into the Menoth wall, but rather win the skirmishes and then again force you’re opponent to take drastic action. It really does come down to a game of inches, perception, calculation, and strategy which is why I love this game so much.

[Gaston]

@hoya4life: That's one of the best analyses that I've ever read about Protectorate.

My tournament results skew quite a lot when I go against Menoth particularly. I have about a 50% win ratio against leigon but about a 25% against menoth... and those 25% are assassination.

The assassination comment you made is very key here--Protectorate has some of the squishiest casters in the game, and a good player will generally do what they can to keep them out of threat range, as it will generally only take a couple of good hits to kill one.

Menoth basically stacks sets of short-ranged buffs on each of its models. Think Choir, Vassals, Reclaimers, etc. However, to apply the short-range buff, the source model must generally be in 5 to 6 inch range of the target model. Because most target models often “need/require” the buffs to be effective (not always the case), a lot of the Menoth player’s movement is predetermined and rather inflexible to maintain the required buff spacing. Menoth jacks are also very linked together because they are generally slow and not capable of alphastrike. Thus, most of the time Menoth has to pair 2 heavies in support of each other and also be within 5/6 inches of each other; one jack being the counter-striker that inflicts huge amount of pain with Choir/Enliven combos. This is especially true against Khador since most of their infantry even with weaponmaster is not credible at trashing our jacks so they must pair their heavies. Due to this, the Menoth army forms a predictable “block” of linked units aka chainmail.

I did want to grab this section out--that we use short ranged buffs is completely true and I like the chainmail analogy; but I think we do have a lot more flexibility with support models/units than is indicated here. Choir range is 3", Vassal and Reclaimer are both 5". The catch to it is that you can move the unit then chant the buff, 9" and 10" respectively, then move the jacks away from them while still maintaining your support's distance from the enemy army. Obviously if one is going for ancillary attack, things change a bit; and casters like Vindictus can significantly improve this range. But as a result of this, you'll see more of a caterpillar style movement in the army, where the support moves up, uses their abilities, and then the bruisers move out and away from them (preventing some methods such as chain lightning).

Naturally this does leave the support open to arcing fire, and I will say that I'm very disappointed to see more and more of my Khador opponents bringing that to the table .

[medward]

For me, the vassal giving a jack enliven is one of the most frustrating things out there. Sure, I can work hard and get one jack into melee with a PoM jack, but one attack isn't going to kill it, and the next turn he will paste my jack with his.

So one trick worth considering is boxing in the enemy jacks with your infantry before charging them with your jack. If they can't move, then enliven doesn't matter anymore! If you position your guys right, you only need two infantry guys plus the jack to completely prevent the PoM jack from moving at all. The kayazy are best at this, what with having acrobatics when needed and having parry all the time, but unless your opponent's army has a lot of reach or is bunched together well, just about any infantry you can run will work for it. Also, you'll get some awesomely confused looks from your opponent when your widowmakers start running right at his jack.

[Digilante]

You can also force him to pop enliven early with a sniper shot. He may dance away, but then you can adjust your plan accordingly. Also they can't enliven if they're knocked down or stationary (though beware of that stupid book).

[hoya4life3381]

@hoya4life: That's one of the best analyses that I've ever read about Protectorate.

I did want to grab this section out--that we use short ranged buffs is completely true and I like the chainmail analogy; but I think we do have a lot more flexibility with support models/units than is indicated here. Choir range is 3", Vassal and Reclaimer are both 5". The catch to it is that you can move the unit then chant the buff, 9" and 10" respectively, then move the jacks away from them while still maintaining your support's distance from the enemy army. Obviously if one is going for ancillary attack, things change a bit; and casters like Vindictus can significantly improve this range. But as a result of this, you'll see more of a caterpillar style movement in the army, where the support moves up, uses their abilities, and then the bruisers move out and away from them (preventing some methods such as chain lightning).

Naturally this does leave the support open to arcing fire, and I will say that I'm very disappointed to see more and more of my Khador opponents bringing that to the table .

Yeah I was just trying to give a general distance and keep it pretty-high level. My calculation of distances between units was based on end location aka Choir will end up 3" or Vassal 5" away from said jacks. I wasn't calculating "effect range" which is same as "threat range" because I'm the Khador player and not the Menoth player like you. What I mean is that I just care about the end location of units/solos during my turn so I can move/attack. U have to worry about the actual casting of buffs!

Arcing fire is easily avoidable by simply keeping your important model within 1" of another model. While you can still take scatter damage, the important model at least can not be targetted. Arcing fire to me is kind of situational and sometimes helps you take out that solo if critical, but it usually isn't worth it going for the support solo in the first place. The main time Arcing Fire/Bombards come into play for solo hunting is for Paladin/Vilmon/Seneschal killing. These melee solo models tend to be more out and front in an aggresive position and therefore can't be screened.

[currentlyunknown]

Yeah I was just trying to give a general distance and keep it pretty-high level. My calculation of distances between units was based on end location aka Choir will end up 3" or Vassal 5" away from said jacks. I wasn't calculating "effect range" which is same as "threat range" because I'm the Khador player and not the Menoth player like you. What I mean is that I just care about the end location of units/solos during my turn so I can move/attack. U have to worry about the actual casting of buffs

I think what he was saying that your calculation could be off, because of "effect range". For example, if I advance the jack first turn, then move the choir in base to base contact and sing, the models could end up in base to base. The following turn, where threats are more likely, I sing first, then advance the jacks. If I ran, I just need to be sure that the back edge of the jacks is 9" or less from the choir. Then on my following turn, I can advance the choir, sing, then do what I want with the jacks. Make sense?

[hoya4life3381]

Yeah I'm with ya. I was just simply trying to express the linked, "caterpillar", and staggered movement that Menoth engages in. It's like the a long and somewhat unwieldy chain at times. Because it's unwieldy, the actions are somewhat restricted and often predictable (granted you still have to deal with it!).

Khador basically uses units to support units and create the overlapping threats. This gives us a few more inches of flexibility over the Menoth deployment. How you use or fail to use these few inches basically decides the game on a very even matchup.

I think what he was saying that your calculation could be off, because of "effect range". For example, if I advance the jack first turn, then move the choir in base to base contact and sing, the models could end up in base to base. The following turn, where threats are more likely, I sing first, then advance the jacks. If I ran, I just need to be sure that the back edge of the jacks is 9" or less from the choir. Then on my following turn, I can advance the choir, sing, then do what I want with the jacks. Make sense?

[Havock]

Charge an enlivened target with a Drakhun

[Shyndaar]

I tried playing against an eSevy list with a tier 4 Harkvich list. Works really well for a lot of Feat Denial and things like that. The Menoth brick really does not like mortars, but i found they were never reliable enough to actually HIT something. Still a POW 8 blast against poorly placed Choir wrecks face unless you roll awful (as is the general rule to anything involving dice.) 20 inch threat, however innaccurate is fairly mean to those deliciously squishable support units in the back.

Though you can only ignore the brick for so long before it charges up to you and destroys you.

[Raff]

*starts scribbling notes to use in his next game against Khador*
Don't mind me, gentlemen. Carry on, pretend I'm not here!

[Raff]

Curses, noobish double post has given me away!

*abandons thread*

[Revengineer]

Shoot the wracks if you can get them in range, watch them explode and if you're lucky you will catch some infantry (killed Nicia once) in the blast. AOEs are your friend, lob them at jacks (mortars, destroyers, behemoth, black ivan) direct hits will most likely catch the support, misses might well get them too.