Khador and the Nerf Hammer

[ReaverQueen]

Gotta be careful with UK vs NA metas though. I've seen radically different metas develop over two identical systems in UK and NA. Neither is better. It's just a matter of what's popular or dominant for your geographical area.

[Taslon]

Gotta be careful with UK vs NA metas though. I've seen radically different metas develop over two identical systems in UK and NA. Neither is better. It's just a matter of what's popular or dominant for your geographical area.

I thought "national" instead of International, would count. And besides, Jaimie P, who came from the UK, lists were pretty standard too. They were excellent though. Most fun game I watched was Will and Jaimie square off in that game.

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

Don't be a smart ***. You trying to say Warmachine isn't a reference to War Machines? Really?
And Warmachine existed before Hordes. The use of the word gave the perception of Warjack importance long before Hordes.

yup. Odd really isnt it. I refute your point about names implying what the game is about, and im a smartarse... fun argument. Dont get me wrong. Warjacks are important. they're a signature unit to the game. They're simply not "the game". And like i pointed out, if the name implies what the game is about, why isnt hordes about hordes? Hmm? its not called "Warbeast" for a reason, is it? It is about hordes, however, but to the extent that the factions represent the hordes of the wilderness, rather than hordes on the table top. And if thats the case, isnt it as true to say the same about warmachine, in that warmachine represents the actual nations of the Iron Kingdoms grinding into each other? Such as the khadoran warmachine lumbering through western immoren, and the cygnaran warmachine stepping up to defend its borders?

Im sorry, but to add to this, the fluff backs me up. In the actual world of the iron kingdoms, in terms of numbers, warjacks represent a tiny fraction of whats out there. Look at Irusks 4th Assault Legion. 7,500 iron fangs. 2,100 winter guard. almost a thousand men 'o' war. over 750 assault kommandos. 650 uhlans. ... And 80 warjacks. Warjacks are rare, costly, valued and treasured pieces of kit. saying the game is about them is a mistake. Another game is ruined by an overemphasis on a single type of unit with the lions share of the rules, rulebooks, background and models devoted to that unit, despite their actual numbers being incredibly miniscule. and the whole game suffers for the emphasis that is put on them. are you saying you want the Iron Kingdoms to go down the same road? If you want a game that is all about jacks, play grind. Warmachine, to be perfectly blunt, is about far more than warjacks.

And just for the record. the mechanics and the idea of Hordes came before warmachine. in the era when there was a plan for a D20 miniatures game. While you are correct that Warmachine was released first, Hordes was created beforehand.

[Jake the Dog]

yup. Odd really isnt it. I refute your point about names implying what the game is about, and im a smartarse... fun argument. Dont get me wrong. Warjacks are important. they're a signature unit to the game. They're simply not "the game". And like i pointed out, if the name implies what the game is about, why isnt hordes about hordes? Hmm? its not called "Warbeast" for a reason, is it? It is about hordes, however, but to the extent that the factions represent the hordes of the wilderness, rather than hordes on the table top. And if thats the case, isnt it as true to say the same about warmachine, in that warmachine represents the actual nations of the Iron Kingdoms grinding into each other? Such as the khadoran warmachine lumbering through western immoren, and the cygnaran warmachine stepping up to defend its borders?

Im sorry, but to add to this, the fluff backs me up. In the actual world of the iron kingdoms, in terms of numbers, warjacks represent a tiny fraction of whats out there. Look at Irusks 4th Assault Legion. 7,500 iron fangs. 2,100 winter guard. almost a thousand men 'o' war. over 750 assault kommandos. 650 uhlans. ... And 80 warjacks. Warjacks are rare, costly, valued and treasured pieces of kit. saying the game is about them is a mistake. Another game is ruined by an overemphasis on a single type of unit with the lions share of the rules, rulebooks, background and models devoted to that unit, despite their actual numbers being incredibly miniscule. and the whole game suffers for the emphasis that is put on them. are you saying you want the Iron Kingdoms to go down the same road? If you want a game that is all about jacks, play grind. Warmachine, to be perfectly blunt, is about far more than warjacks.

And just for the record. the mechanics and the idea of Hordes came before warmachine. in the era when there was a plan for a D20 miniatures game. While you are correct that Warmachine was released first, Hordes was created beforehand.

What the game rules or fiction say is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to my statement, so your point is rather moot. The point was about the new player seeing the game without any knowledge of it. It's called Warmachine, the starter boxes feature 2-4 Big Machines of War, and the Art, while featuring infantry, has a clear focus on Warcasters and said Big Machines of War. Anyone seeing this will assume, and rightfully so, that the focus is in these War Machines.

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

What the game rules or fiction say is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to my statement, so your point is rather moot. The point was about the new player seeing the game without any knowledge of it. It's called Warmachine, the starter boxes feature 2-4 Big Machines of War, and the Art, while featuring infantry, has a clear focus on Warcasters and said Big Machines of War. Anyone seeing this will assume, and rightfully so, that the focus is in these War Machines.

and like i said, the starter boxes are just that - they're "the start" of the game, not "the game". if PP wanted the game to be just about jacks, it would be. Its not. Infantry have a huge, characterful, and iconic role to play, with artwork to boot. To be honest, what the game rules and the fictions say is extremely relevant, actually. Quite simply, they define the world. trying to say its not is like trying to impose rules on a debate where the other guy cant bring points that refute your own. Its like sticking your head in the sand when the other guy is making his point and trying to ignore what he says. Im sorry, but it just doesnt work that way. What you know at first glance is often not the whole story. Whether this is a subject you're studying, table top wargaming, politics, history etc. Making calls "without any knowledge" is hardly a good platform on which to base an opinion, (or to stubbornly hold onto one, despite any amount of evidence and argument that disproves it) if you ask me. Personally, im quite happy to see my opinions change on subjects when someone informs me about more of the stuff i didnt know about. Like i said, the focus of "the starter sets" are not so much on warjacks, as on warjacks, warcasters and their interplay. but this is merely the demo level/ training mission. But the focus of "the game" is on so much more than just that.

if artwork "features" infantry, then they're as vital a part of the game as anything else. they're not an afterthought. they're not something brushed in at the last minute. Nor is all the artwork about jacks smashing stuff. Same with the writing. if the stories written feature "dozens" of warjacks, along with "hundreds" of men 'o' war, and "thousands" of iron fangs (eg Wrath) then i know where the emphasis is. Looking at the actual tabletop photos - again, you've got the same story. a warcaster, or two. between two and four jacks. and between two and four squads of infantry as well. Im sorry, but you're wrong. infantry are as vital a part of "the game", and "the fluff" as warjacks and warcasters. the person who says the game is just about warjacks - well quite simply, they're wrong.

[HeadHunter]

Funny, I don't see a single MkII book that doesn't feature at least one 'jack pretty predominately in the cover art. They're also on the cover of a majority of NQ issues. For something that's so allegedly rare, they sure do go out of their way to feature them on just about every cover, don't they?

Furthermore, when PP explains what Warmachine is about, 'jacks are mentioned first:

In WARMACHINE, the very earth shakes during these fierce confrontations where six-ton constructs of tempered iron and steel slam into one another with the destructive force of a locomotive.

In this 30 mm tabletop miniatures battle game, each player controls an elite soldier-sorcerer who leads an army into battle to fight for king, country, or simply coin. These warcasters are formidable and experienced combatants, and the warjacks they control represent the pinnacle of military might in the Iron Kingdoms

A game is fought with the thundering cannons, ripping iron claws, and crushing hammer blows of the giant steam-powered warjacks as well as the devastating spells wrought by the warcasters themselves

Get the picture?

I regret to inform you that your belief that others are "quite simply wrong" doesn't necessarily make it so. See, your doubt doesn't change the reality of the situation. PP markets Warmachine as a predominately 'jack-centric game. Hence the name. Your Hordes analogy was kind of weak in that regard - if we follow your line of reasoning, they'd have named it "WarSoldier" or something, then, wouldn't they?

Yes, infantry do feature heavily in the game - but without the 'jacks, it'd be just another minis combat game. And it probably wouldn't around today - it certainly wouldn't have enjoyed the success it has.

[Monly]

Funny, I don't see a single MkII book that doesn't feature at least one 'jack pretty predominately in the cover art. They're also on the cover of a majority of NQ issues. For something that's so allegedly rare, they sure do go out of their way to feature them on just about every cover, don't they?

Furthermore, when PP explains what Warmachine is about, 'jacks are mentioned first:



Get the picture?

I regret to inform you that your belief that others are "quite simply wrong" doesn't necessarily make it so. See, your doubt doesn't change the reality of the situation. PP markets Warmachine as a predominately 'jack-centric game. Hence the name. Your Hordes analogy was kind of weak in that regard - if we follow your line of reasoning, they'd have named it "WarSoldier" or something, then, wouldn't they?

Yes, infantry do feature heavily in the game - but without the 'jacks, it'd be just another minis combat game. And it probably wouldn't around today - it certainly wouldn't have enjoyed the success it has.

This. To be honest, he is someone who cant admit he is wrong. The perception of this game has always been about Warjacks, ALWAYS!!! All books I own and No Quarters I own Have, as you say Jacks or beasts taking the majority of the cover. Warmachine is all about jacks and they even gave you intensive to use them with Warjack Points. Of course infantry play a part on the game, but as HeadHunter says, if there where no Warjacks this would be the most boring game and one hell of a generic fantasy game.

[Jake the Dog]

and like i said, the starter boxes are just that - they're "the start" of the game, not "the game". if PP wanted the game to be just about jacks, it would be. Its not. Infantry have a huge, characterful, and iconic role to play, with artwork to boot. To be honest, what the game rules and the fictions say is extremely relevant, actually. Quite simply, they define the world. trying to say its not is like trying to impose rules on a debate where the other guy cant bring points that refute your own. Its like sticking your head in the sand when the other guy is making his point and trying to ignore what he says. Im sorry, but it just doesnt work that way. What you know at first glance is often not the whole story. Whether this is a subject you're studying, table top wargaming, politics, history etc. Making calls "without any knowledge" is hardly a good platform on which to base an opinion, (or to stubbornly hold onto one, despite any amount of evidence and argument that disproves it) if you ask me. Personally, im quite happy to see my opinions change on subjects when someone informs me about more of the stuff i didnt know about. Like i said, the focus of "the starter sets" are not so much on warjacks, as on warjacks, warcasters and their interplay. but this is merely the demo level/ training mission. But the focus of "the game" is on so much more than just that.

if artwork "features" infantry, then they're as vital a part of the game as anything else. they're not an afterthought. they're not something brushed in at the last minute. Nor is all the artwork about jacks smashing stuff. Same with the writing. if the stories written feature "dozens" of warjacks, along with "hundreds" of men 'o' war, and "thousands" of iron fangs (eg Wrath) then i know where the emphasis is. Looking at the actual tabletop photos - again, you've got the same story. a warcaster, or two. between two and four jacks. and between two and four squads of infantry as well. Im sorry, but you're wrong. infantry are as vital a part of "the game", and "the fluff" as warjacks and warcasters. the person who says the game is just about warjacks - well quite simply, they're wrong.

Someone doesn't understand perception and marketing versus reality. Since you can't seem to get that, then you'll never get it.

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

Funny, I don't see a single MkII book that doesn't feature at least one 'jack pretty predominately in the cover art. They're also on the cover of a majority of NQ issues. For something that's so allegedly rare, they sure do go out of their way to feature them on just about every cover, don't they?

*nor being pedantic, but looks at NQ issues to hand * Issue 7 - Finn. issue 35. gun carriage. Issue 36. wraith engine, and disco ball. Issue 37. PP flag. issue 38. maelok. and a gator in the background. issue 39. swirling melee. throne of everblight. baldur. kalus. bunch of other stuff. issue 40.hog, ironclad, rovissi, and shaw. 41. colossal. *takes a quick glance through PP archives* they seem to show quite a few warjacks, and a lot of units, solos, UAs, alexias, warcasters, warlocks.... issue 24 features a train. No, i dispute that they are on the cover of the majority of issues. they're there. No mistakes. theres lots of them. but they dont hog the pages.

going further, I never said they werent involved. they're cool. cool things feature. but they're not the only cool things in this game. look above. See my previous posts. when i mentioned the FOW: Khador book, i specifically mentioned the destroyer, spriggan, juggy as well as the infantry.

Get the picture?

i can do selective editing too. Hows about continuing on with that paragraph of yours.
"take control of an elite battle mage known as a warcaster, and his army of devestating warjacks and deadly soldiers in this fast paced..."

apparently, infantry feature here in warmachine armies.

or how about:
"WARMACHINE is a game of cunning strategy, brutal tactics, and epic clashes between armies of steam-powered warjacks, battle hardened soldiers and elite battle mages".

apparently, they feature here too.

hey, they even have a huge section in the rules just about them. yup, they're obviously just shoe-horned in.

I regret to inform you that your belief that others are "quite simply wrong" doesn't necessarily make it so. See, your doubt doesn't change the reality of the situation. PP markets Warmachine as a predominately 'jack-centric game. Hence the name. Your Hordes analogy was kind of weak in that regard - if we follow your line of reasoning, they'd have named it "WarSoldier" or something, then, wouldn't they?

And yet, i still have valid grounds for my point of view. As i've pointed out, the artwork features both jacks and infantry (something i've never strayed from saying). in game pictures features both jacks and infantry. the stories feature both jacks and infantry. therefore, you cant say the game is just about warjacks. they're a cool, iconic feature of the setting (something i've repeatedly said), but they dont define it (which is my point from the word go). the Iron Kingdoms are so much more than just "ooh, warjacks!" Furthermore, I've never said they've got no part to play. I despise statements that warmachine is just about jacks- because clearly, there is so much more to the game, and the game world than just them. thats all i've ever been saying. that and putting into context the actual numbers. Saying the game is just about Jacks is going down the same road where 40k is all about space marines. the argument about hordes was pointing out that "whats in a name" isnt really that relevant. Infinity has what to do with the game, for example. Hordes is about hordes just as warmachine is about war machines. Warmachine is a cool name. but its got less to do with jacks, and more to do with the nature of the game. Honestly, when i first saw the name, i thought of Iron Man's buddy, funnily enough.

Yes, infantry do feature heavily in the game - but without the 'jacks, it'd be just another minis combat game. And it probably wouldn't around today - it certainly wouldn't have enjoyed the success it has.

absolutely. I wont deny that at all. I'll repear what i've said earlier. they're a cool, iconic feature of the setting, but they dont define it. but that doesnt change what i've said. the game isnt just about warjacks. I consider things like doom reavers and Men 'o' War, cygnaran lightning guns etc to be as iconic as anything that calls itself a warjack. Heck, i got into the game because of the look, and the fluff of doom reavers. its why ive got 8 squads of them now

This. To be honest, he is someone who cant admit he is wrong. The perception of this game has always been about Warjacks, ALWAYS!!! All books I own and No Quarters I own Have, as you say Jacks or beasts taking the majority of the cover. Warmachine is all about jacks and they even gave you intensive to use them with Warjack Points. Of course infantry play a part on the game, but as HeadHunter says, if there where no Warjacks this would be the most boring game and one hell of a generic fantasy game.

If it can be proven in terms of fluff or whatever that the game is only about jacks, i will gladly stand down. I will take what you say though, and modify it - Warjacks have always been a fundamental part of this game. absolutely. I've never said the opposite. but i dont think the game is soley about them. the numbers alone show infantry play as vital a role in the game/world as jacks do. If the game was soley about jacks, we wouldnt have infantry. warjack points were a balancing feature to bring more jacks into play, as in the heady days of the end of mk1, jacks were simply terrible. warjack points and the cross-the-board buffs jacks got were a way of bringing jacks back up to bar, and bringing the vision of PP to the tabletop. and it wasnt just jacks that changed. plenty infantry (whether auto-includes, or non-starters) got nerfed or buffed, and plenty casters had whole feats and spell lists changed out. Mk2 was so much more than "MOAR JACKS". but please note, warjacks did not, have not, and will not replace infantry in this game. as to perception, well perception is a personal thing. see above. my perception of the game went to doom reavers, and the characters of the game, and how they interacted - coming from other games, i thought it was great how the back story of one character (eg denny) revealed more about another (haley) and how they were all linked with their own strengths, weaknesses, foibles, rivalries. warjacks? meh. they didnt grab me as much as stryker, or haley, butcher or sorscha. *shrug* YMMV

Someone doesn't understand perception and marketing versus reality. Since you can't seem to get that, then you'll never get it.

then why is this perception formed only from a basic introduction to the game being touted as irrefutable, unquestionable, uncheangeable gospel? I get it. I really do. marketing is just "spin". Take it with a grain of salt. Just lie the news, and every political broadcast you'll ever here. I know exactly what you're trying to say. I disagree with you. there is more to 40k than space marines. there is more to warmachine than jacks.

[Monly]

Oh I guess when I started Warmachine I had to read all the fluff to get interested and not the fact that Huge Robots as a cool factor. Seriously, you are the most stubborn troll I have seen. Not everyone knows the fluff, and I bet there are people that just plays the game game for what it is, a game and dont care for the story. But I can bet that most people who come to play this game is for Warjacks and not for puny soldiers. I bet you are just trolling to piss people off but you are just that. You just have auto satisfaction replying to eveyone and you just want to have the last laugh. Enjoy it.

[Jake the Dog]

*nor being pedantic, but looks at NQ issues to hand * Issue 7 - Finn. issue 35. gun carriage. Issue 36. wraith engine, and disco ball. Issue 37. PP flag. issue 38. maelok. and a gator in the background. issue 39. swirling melee. throne of everblight. baldur. kalus. bunch of other stuff. issue 40.hog, ironclad, rovissi, and shaw. 41. colossal. *takes a quick glance through PP archives* they seem to show quite a few warjacks, and a lot of units, solos, UAs, alexias, warcasters, warlocks.... issue 24 features a train. No, i dispute that they are on the cover of the majority of issues. they're there. No mistakes. theres lots of them. but they dont hog the pages.

going further, I never said they werent involved. they're cool. cool things feature. but they're not the only cool things in this game. look above. See my previous posts. when i mentioned the FOW: Khador book, i specifically mentioned the destroyer, spriggan, juggy as well as the infantry.




i can do selective editing too. Hows about continuing on with that paragraph of yours.
"take control of an elite battle mage known as a warcaster, and his army of devestating warjacks and deadly soldiers in this fast paced..."

apparently, infantry feature here in warmachine armies.

or how about:
"WARMACHINE is a game of cunning strategy, brutal tactics, and epic clashes between armies of steam-powered warjacks, battle hardened soldiers and elite battle mages".

apparently, they feature here too.

hey, they even have a huge section in the rules just about them. yup, they're obviously just shoe-horned in.




And yet, i still have valid grounds for my point of view. As i've pointed out, the artwork features both jacks and infantry (something i've never strayed from saying). in game pictures features both jacks and infantry. the stories feature both jacks and infantry. therefore, you cant say the game is just about warjacks. they're a cool, iconic feature of the setting (something i've repeatedly said), but they dont define it (which is my point from the word go). the Iron Kingdoms are so much more than just "ooh, warjacks!" Furthermore, I've never said they've got no part to play. I despise statements that warmachine is just about jacks- because clearly, there is so much more to the game, and the game world than just them. thats all i've ever been saying. that and putting into context the actual numbers. Saying the game is just about Jacks is going down the same road where 40k is all about space marines. the argument about hordes was pointing out that "whats in a name" isnt really that relevant. Infinity has what to do with the game, for example. Hordes is about hordes just as warmachine is about war machines. Warmachine is a cool name. but its got less to do with jacks, and more to do with the nature of the game. Honestly, when i first saw the name, i thought of Iron Man's buddy, funnily enough.




absolutely. I wont deny that at all. I'll repear what i've said earlier. they're a cool, iconic feature of the setting, but they dont define it. but that doesnt change what i've said. the game isnt just about warjacks. I consider things like doom reavers and Men 'o' War, cygnaran lightning guns etc to be as iconic as anything that calls itself a warjack. Heck, i got into the game because of the look, and the fluff of doom reavers. its why ive got 8 squads of them now



If it can be proven in terms of fluff or whatever that the game is only about jacks, i will gladly stand down. I will take what you say though, and modify it - Warjacks have always been a fundamental part of this game. absolutely. I've never said the opposite. but i dont think the game is soley about them. the numbers alone show infantry play as vital a role in the game/world as jacks do. If the game was soley about jacks, we wouldnt have infantry. warjack points were a balancing feature to bring more jacks into play, as in the heady days of the end of mk1, jacks were simply terrible. warjack points and the cross-the-board buffs jacks got were a way of bringing jacks back up to bar, and bringing the vision of PP to the tabletop. and it wasnt just jacks that changed. plenty infantry (whether auto-includes, or non-starters) got nerfed or buffed, and plenty casters had whole feats and spell lists changed out. Mk2 was so much more than "MOAR JACKS". but please note, warjacks did not, have not, and will not replace infantry in this game. as to perception, well perception is a personal thing. see above. my perception of the game went to doom reavers, and the characters of the game, and how they interacted - coming from other games, i thought it was great how the back story of one character (eg denny) revealed more about another (haley) and how they were all linked with their own strengths, weaknesses, foibles, rivalries. warjacks? meh. they didnt grab me as much as stryker, or haley, butcher or sorscha. *shrug* YMMV



then why is this perception formed only from a basic introduction to the game being touted as irrefutable, unquestionable, uncheangeable gospel? I get it. I really do. marketing is just "spin". Take it with a grain of salt. Just lie the news, and every political broadcast you'll ever here. I know exactly what you're trying to say. I disagree with you. there is more to 40k than space marines. there is more to warmachine than jacks.

I don't even see the point in trying to make you understand any longer. Keep living in delusion my friend. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[profparm]

Not to be intentionally controversial, but my interest in this game grew to be more of an infantry-focus over warjack-focus the more I read. The initial looks make Warjacks cooler, because robots > humans, but once I started reading through at least a couple of paragraphs of fluff, I realized that robots, being machines, have very little in the way of personality and flavor, whereas the infantry has tons of this, usually reflecting the bursting-to-the-brims-with-flavors (and-occasionally-over-hyphenated) nations that the infantry come from in very entertaining ways.

Honestly, though, at this point, I'm playing for the warcasters. In Khador, the only two warcasters that I'm not crazy about flavor-wise are Butcher and Harkevich; every other model I absolutely love the story and feel of, especially the more I read. (I do think Butcher and Harkevich reflect their flavors, they're just not to my taste.) Sorscha is my favorite example, because she looks boring as hell from the card and the brief knowledge that she's Vlad's side squeeze that he won't do more than hit it with 'cause he's a noble and she's blah blah blah, but after reading the first paragraph about her running away as a young girl and lying about her age to enroll in the Khador military, I started liking her more and more. I got in to Khador because I like the Russian mindset in a game and my friend wanted to get the 2-player box set; I'm obsessed with Khador because of the warcasters. We have the coolest warcasters or warjacks in any army, with an exception of maybe one per army being on par with ours.

Back to the (relatively) original topic, in terms of initial reasons to get in to the game, I agree with the sides of robots; but initial interest does not break my wallet. The reason I love the game is because of the fluff and the warcasters, and, in the fluff, the warcasters seem to be supported by infantry as much (if not moreso) than being supported by 'jacks, ESPECIALLY in Khador, since we have so few cortexes. Still, warcasters are more important than all of their petty minions (no offense gatormen).

[Kuarnix]

I still think that the best infantry removal abilities are from Prime.

[HeadHunter]

i can do selective editing too. Hows about continuing on with that paragraph of yours.
"take control of an elite battle mage known as a warcaster, and his army of devestating warjacks and deadly soldiers in this fast paced..."

apparently, infantry feature here in warmachine armies.

or how about:
"WARMACHINE is a game of cunning strategy, brutal tactics, and epic clashes between armies of steam-powered warjacks, battle hardened soldiers and elite battle mages".

apparently, they feature here too.

As I said, jacks are always the FIRST thing they mention, even in the quotes you provided. I'm sure you still miss why that is.

I don't think anyone ever said that the game is "solely" about 'jacks, so I'd ask you to please not put words in anyone else's mouth. It was merely stated that the 'jacks are the focus of the game, and the evidence provided supports that, regardless of whether or not you care to accept it.

I think a combined arms approach is the wisest way to field an army, in this game or any other - but I daresay that the game would be fresher and more innovative as a game solely featuring Warjacks than it would if they were absent altogether.

[thrasymacus]

I've been following this thread but never saw the right time to jump in. It seems to be de railing a bit so before it does; I agree with the OP. Khador has an extremely limited playbook. The plays in our book are solid however, and that confuses the Khador fanboys. We're like an Ice Cream parlor with only 3 or 4 flavors of ice cream, but the ice cream is still good. It's not hard to build lists against us because we're predictable. If you can deal with Armor and High DEF you're in a good position to beat Khador. If you can get rid of upkeeps even better. Here's some 'flavors' that we're missing. You might not like these flavors, but that's irrelevant.

Almost no arc nodes. This affects what we can do on 2nd turn a great deal. Most of our Casters wouldn't jive with an arc node anyway so it's not that big a deal (like How Siege seldom takes a Lancer)

No lights. Now this is a problem. Light warjacks are excellent, versatile and maybe most importantly, expendable. There's all kinds of tactics that are simply not available to us because we don't have them. I don't really mind not having them, but I don't dismiss the importance of their absence. MoW's are another troop choice, not a Light Warjack substitute.

No Focus 8+ casters. I don't know any focus 8 or greater casters that aren't good, unless you count the Coven, which is only bad by Cryx standards which means they're still amazing. We just don't have one of those wizardy squishy casters that have a huge control zone and effective board control. Ok, we have the Old Witch, and hey, that's more than minions. But it's been 7 years or so. A super wizard wouldn't fix our faction because it's not broken, but it would be another flavor. All I'm saying.

Extremely limited auto hitting ranged game. Chain lightning type stuff. We struggle to dig out models in cover. While many (not all) factions have tools to get models in cover on a hill fairly reliably, though at a steep focus cost, we simply do not. We have Airburst, which costs 5 focus to only semi reliably kill one solo, but we still love it.

Extremely low pseudo focus. Pseudo focus is anything that lightens the load on your caster and comes in various forms. It's the flip side of fury management tools. Cryx has the most, with soul collecting/generating, a Siren that is worth her points even without Power Booster, a Skarlock, and the Combine. Cygnar comes in second with the Dude being one of the few effective Jack Marshall combinations, the Squire, Journeyman and Strangeways. We have the least pseudo focus just as trolls have the least Fury Management. The problem is compounded by the low MAT and RAT of our focus hungry Jacks. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with us. Maybe it all evens out, maybe it doesn't.

Limited ways to deal with Stealth and Incorporeal. The hordes factions are quickly getting ways Arc spells. I'm seeing spell martyrs and those Circle things quite a bit. We get Wyshnailer, and Aiyanna & Holt. Not bad. Not great. Still a ways behind here. Stealth is a real problem though. The Spriggan is crazy expensive. It papers over this weakness, which is better than nothing. I've already mentioned Airburst & Auto hitting stuff, which relates to anti stealth.

Accurate ranged attacks. We have some. You people take WGI for Iron Flesh, I take them because they CRA. On the whole, we really lag behind here. We've got very little in terms of debuffs or ranged knock down. We could have really used that seismic cannon thing that the Avenger got. We do have an abundance of Bombards and Mortars, but just as Chain Weapons chip into the effectiveness of shield wall, girded, Redirection, Dug In, Solid Ground and Force barrier etc can hamper us more than other factions because we depend on AoE's (just as we depend on Shield Wall more than other factions) I always felt that we get the Mortar to balance for us not having Arc Nodes, to encourage the enemy to engage with us and to allow us to participate in the game earlier. Now it seems I'm more worried about enemy AoE's then they are of mine. I'm not running infantry heavy either. I'm a mixed arms guy for the most part. We just haven't got anything to really protect fragile support models except the very expensive and slow Demolisher. Oddly, that makes Khador very good at beating Khador. Doesn't help that the Ternion have one wound each.

Now here's something we have that other factions don't. We have variety's of weapon masters like Cryx has varieties of Jacks. I think it's our only unique thing, the only time we can be defined by something we have rather than something we lack. A 2 point Manhunter plays differently than Yuri at 3 points, who again plays differently than a Drakhun. You get the idea. That's a strong plus in our favor that I'd be remiss not to mention, and probably goes a long way to plugging the gaps that I've listed. If I can pop pButchers feat and nearly destroy a heavy Myrmidon with a single Manhunter with Fury up that's a legitimate strength.

So, in a nutshell, while I see other factions getting ways to protect themselves from us while threatening us with near impunity, I don't see us getting ways to over come their strengths. The Eliminators might be an exception. Cheap, self sufficient, dangerous, jive with our buffs and expendable. They're legit and they're different. The +3 Arm on Harkovich's feat is also turning out to be surprisingly effective.

Just my thoughts. I'm playing Cryx now. pGaspy, as vanilla as Cryx can be. I'm rolling over Khador pretty easily and my Cryx list is pretty garbage. There's just so many things I don't have to worry about because Khador has to do backflips to counter plays that other factions counter just by casting a spell or taking a support solo.

[CrazyMadHatter]

Thank you thrasymacus for being more eloquent than I was and could be. This is essentially what I was trying to say but mine came off the back of constant frustration of not having the same tools everyone else is getting rather than reasoned the thought out like yours.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Thrasymacus: Beautifully done, very good points.

But i dont think that us lacking all of those things is bad from a power perspective, but to me i find it a problem from a army theme standpoint.

A Faction shouldnt be defined by what it doesnt have, it should be defined by what it does have. Khador doesnt have Arc Nodes, Light Jacks, Focus help, Extreme focus countries and other things, but all we really get to compensate for it is stats, and thats *ok* from a game balance perspective, but i really wish that we had more tricks. More ways to build a force which isnt just * a normal khador force* and have it be competitive.

[ReaverQueen]

We get really cool theme forces though. That's a plus worth mentioning. Like eButcher's theme force. Way better than like... Cygnar's Street Sweepers.

[Tyr852]

I want to run ebutchers theme force but can't justify having that many doomer reavers around when I'm not using it =/. Granted I think they only time I'd use ebutcher I'd use the theme force.

[ReaverQueen]

That's a very valid concern.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Yeah, but theme forces don't change an army as much as access to an arc node does. I mean look at the Old Witch and Imagine what she would be like without Scrapjack.

Or how much Cygnar would be different without the Junior Warcaster

Or the Protectorate without the Choir.

[ReaverQueen]

Well, we're more likely to get theme forces that include that stuff because we go around stealing things. Like Vanguards. Zerkova + Vanguards makes a really cool army because of that one theme force.


Just because... I guess some types of releases would imbalance our faction, outside of being restricted to certain warcasters. I'm not even sure that's actually true. I think they just write the theme forces to be whatever they think is cool.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Theme forces have the capacity of being awesome additions, but they hardly hit the mark. They are mostly just shots in the dark, it seems.

I mean would Khador be so overpowered if we got more capacity to control warjacks better? We would spend less points on Infantry and more on jacks. The faction becomes more powerful through greater access to options, but each battle stays the same because you only have a certain amount of points to fill.

[ScottEBJJ]

Just my thoughts. I'm playing Cryx now. pGaspy, as vanilla as Cryx can be. I'm rolling over Khador pretty easily and my Cryx list is pretty garbage. There's just so many things I don't have to worry about because Khador has to do backflips to counter plays that other factions counter just by casting a spell or taking a support solo.

Is this pGaspy list actually using any recent release to a real effect? Or is it a Cryx list made up of models that Cyrx has had access to for almost all of MK2. Because my belief its the later as opposed to the former and that your Cryx success has nothing to do with recent releases making our faction worse by comparison. In which case I can honestly say your Khador players need to up their game. Because if you are rolling over them with a bad Cryx list that's been available for most of MK2 then every other Cryx player must be really bad because they haven't been doing the same for 2 years now,

And if my belief is wrong then you really should run and tell the Cryx forum because you're onto something they are all missing,

[Frege]

At least some this comes across as getting upset that your models die...in a wargame! Maybe focus on how you can counter A2A or blasts etc instead of whining. Spreading out helps a lot. Remember if you lost all your high defense wgi or kayazy but still got caster kill or scenario the you still win.

[HeadHunter]

I mean would Khador be so overpowered if we got more capacity to control warjacks better?

With our 'jacks? Quite possibly.

That said, I'd love to play a 35 (or even 50) point battle with several Warjacks and little to no infantry, just for kicks.

[thrasymacus]

Fair question. I won't tell you my initial list, but I'll just say after years of not being allowed to use lights I went light jacks crazy had fun and got stomped. I'm pretty much just running models I like and doing well. Almost everything in my Cryx army is a direct result of my Khador experiences, it's the total opposite of a Khador army in a sense. I field nothing from Wrath for my Cryx. Maybe a Scavenger against Hordes, not against Khador. And a Siren. She's so amazing.

pGaspy (+6)
Cankerworm 5
Ripjaw 5 (or whatever)
Reaper 7
Mechanithralls +1 Brute 6 (no Surgeon!)
3 Soul Hunters 6 (no Daragh Wrathe)
5 Black Ogrun Boarding Party dudes 6
Combine 5
Siren 2
Gorman di Wolf 2
Machine Wraith 1
Necrotech + scrap thrall 1
Bloat Thrall 2
Skarlock 3

That's not exactly 56, but I mix in Slayers, I run the Corrupter, I've started swapping out the chaff for the Satyxis module. Stuff like that. Helldivers every now and then.

Nothing really all that threatening right? Against other factions I struggle against ranged stuff. But not against Khador. Here's the gist of how my games go. Obviously Parasite and Scything touch go up pretty fast. I can take out a standard Khador heavy with 3 Soul Hunters in one turn. Not if it has Superiority up though and Black Ivan is a jerk. The Reaper is obviously looking for that big pull for the WSC to Dark Industries but sadly my opponent can see that coming a mile away. The Combine is still a major threat, popping off Dark Fires, knocking down Upkeeps (thanks Admonia) and giving a free upkeep (thanks again Admonia!!) Note; Always kill the Combine member with boobs. I'm sticking Parasite pretty reliably with the other Combine guy doing puppet strings, not that it's that hard to stick a Khador heavy. So that's my answer to Khador heavies. You're obviously going to the Cryx forum so you know that a model that gets Parasited is probably gonna die before you can shake the debuff, which for the most part you can't anyway. Canker Worm gets his move/action/move with pGaspy. It's got Stealth and hits as hard as the Behemoth, has Pathfinder and the MAT of Beast09. My last game Cankerworm ran around with the Decimators Cannon, taking shots at pButcher. At RAT 5. Just for laughs. Unlike in Khador, in Cryx giving 3 focus to make the Decimator gun work isn't that hard.

Dealing with Khador troops. pGaspy does a POW 5 to enemy models within 14". That's laughably terrible. But combine it with Parasite and Khadors slew of low armor but deadly infantry and it's suddenly not the addendum to his Feat, it's the heart of his feat. Next, pGaspy has Breath of Corruption (BoC), which does not deal Blast Damage, it's just a straight up POW12 that becomes a corrosive cloud. I can shoot Gorman in the back on my first turn (he doesn't mind) and hit my Scrapthrall beside him (he does mind, but I'm indifferent) to create a small cloud wall. I can stand in those clouds and non reach troops will die as soon as they come near me. The Scarlock allows me to cast offensive spells and throw up my buff. When I really need to attrition off Khador infantry, after the POW 5+Parasite, I can lob a 5 BoC's, with gaspy, through my node (probable) and with my Scarlock. And then the bloat thrall has his 5" AoE. That's a pretty good counter to Nyss and Widowmakers, and a bloody nose for WGI.

The Boarding party don't do much. I just can't resist taking 5 models with 8 wounds each for 6 points. That comes from paying for MoW all these years. They're surprisingly resilient, totally expendable, as is almost everything in my army. My biggest advantage against Khador is that I've played them for a good amount of time. I started around Apotheosis, so I'm not a veteran by any means. But I know which Great Bear needs to die, I know not to charge a MoW Shield wall and I know the threat ranges. Also, I'm good at remembering scenario even in the heat of battle. Here's one more thing. When the game is winding down and most models are killed off, it's very easy for me to teleport pGaspy near a Khador caster and have Cankerworm slam gaspy over the enemy caster. Gaspy can take the hit, and I just need enough attacks to finish the Caster off. It's not difficult. pGaspy has Teleport and Cankerworm has pathfinder and the tools to survive a long game. This is something Khador just can't do. Having cheap speedy slammers late game is very useful which is a major hole in the Khador playbook.

[ScottEBJJ]

I'm not really trying to debate the viability of the list, but as I've said it's really nothing new. That list has been available to Cryx for the majority of MK2. If it really is running over your Khador players that easily they need to up their play, because it isn't anything that other Khador players haven't been dealing with since MK2 started.

This threads premise is that other factions are getting models specifically to counter ours and that this factions is slipping down the ladder because of it, and it really isn't true. Other factions have always had ways to deal with our main shtick, and yet we've been just as good or better then every faction.

It's as if local players are finally discovering there are ways to deal with Kayazy and the Khador players are panicking because they actually have to play the game. But for the majority of us, especially those that travel to cons or have really competitive metas, have been living that reality the whole time. And yet somehow we are still winning games, making top cuts, winning tournaments, and winning cons.

[HeadHunter]

If it really is running over your Khador players that easily they need to up their play, because it isn't anything that other Khador players haven't been dealing with since MK2 started.

This threads premise is that other factions are getting models specifically to counter ours and that this factions is slipping down the ladder because of it, and it really isn't true.

Precisely what I was trying to say! No one has gotten new models since Wrath, am I correct (well, they may have released new figures, but the rules have been there since then)? That was a year ago. This isn't like 40K, where Codex creep means the amry that was powerful before gets hosed when someone else's codex comes out. We all get updated at the same time. It's simply that other people are getting wise as to how to beat the one-trick pony players.

What worked yesterday may not always work tomorrow - but that's not because anything's changed. It's just that Player A wised up while Player B still hasn't.

[HeadHunter]

If it really is running over your Khador players that easily they need to up their play, because it isn't anything that other Khador players haven't been dealing with since MK2 started.

This threads premise is that other factions are getting models specifically to counter ours and that this factions is slipping down the ladder because of it, and it really isn't true.

Precisely what I was trying to say! No one has gotten new models since Wrath, am I correct? Well, they may have released new figures, but the rules have been there since then... That was a year ago. This isn't like 40K, where Codex creep means the army that was powerful before gets hosed when someone else's codex comes out. We all get updated at the same time. It's simply that other people are getting wise as to how to beat the one-trick pony players.

What worked yesterday may not always work tomorrow - but that's not because anything's changed. It's just that Player A wised up while Player B still hasn't.

[jdeckert]

@thrasymacus: Well thought out and articulated post.

I do think that the limits and weaknesses in factions is a part of the game, though. We could put together a similar list for Cygnar: no weaponmaster infantry, no good tar-pit/multi-wound infantry, has just as hard of a time running more than 1 heavy as we do. As a result of this, factions are going to have their good and bad matchups. If I'm playing against Cryx, I'd rather use my Cygnar since they have tools to counter infantry, stealth, and lack of hitting power isn't that much of an issue. If I'm playing against Skorne, I'd rather use my Khador since Cygnar starts to struggle against 2+ heavy warbeasts whereas Khador can apply damage no problem.

I also think that Khador is a little more versatile than you give credit for. We do ranged well enough. We do melee better than pretty much anyone. We've got magic attacks/weapons in greylords (who are awesome despite 1 wound), doom reavers (who seem to be seeing a surge in popularity), and Aiyana and Holt. In terms of auto-hitting ranged attacks, we've got AOEs. Lots of them, and good ones. The recent releases have just added to this. They're a little random, but so is chain lightning/ashes-to-ashes. I think those are pretty good counters for incorporeal/stealth. Granted blast immunity and high ARM stealth are still problems, but those spells have to deal with lightning and fire immunity. Those are less common, but they're definitely out there.

You might be finding that Khador is one-dimensional relative to Cryx, where it is not so one-dimensional relative to other factions. I feel Cryx is somewhat unique in having answers for just about anything. Shooting is a little rough on them, but they're a really well rounded faction. I came to Khador from Trolls, Cygnar, and Circle and I feel like Khador is at least as versatile as any of those three.

That said, I think your overall assessment of the weaknesses of the faction is fairly accurate. I'm a bit thrown by your conclusion, though,

"So, in a nutshell, while I see other factions getting ways to protect themselves from us while threatening us with near impunity, I don't see us getting ways to over come their strengths."

Could you offer more examples of this? Is there more blast immunity than before? Are there better anti-infantry options than there used to be? More stealth?

[PG_LunarSol]

I really don't mind PP working to change the way the game plays, I'm just concerned that they seem unwilling to give us the tools we need to respond to the changes. The colossal battle report has me more nervous than ever, just because I don't see what Conquest does that the Kraken doesn't do better. Higher speed, longer range, farther reach, crazy ranged threat range with what is essentially a better Quick Work, and with the death of 3 infantry, -1 POW in melee and +2 POW at range. With the same points, ARM, etc, all its really losing is 4 boxes on the damage grid and the crit on the gun. I don't mind wanting to get away from IF infantry. I just sort of feel like when we get our new releases we keep missing opportunities to get away from it.

[ReaverQueen]

Books =/= released.

I'm not playing models that I don't own the model for. Call me simple or whatever, but that's just not how I roll. I -might- proxy 1-2 times a year or something, but other than that I want to own the model I'm playing. When something isn't released... that means I don't really have the opportunity to use it.

[Taslon]

I really don't mind PP working to change the way the game plays, I'm just concerned that they seem unwilling to give us the tools we need to respond to the changes. The colossal battle report has me more nervous than ever, just because I don't see what Conquest does that the Kraken doesn't do better. Higher speed, longer range, farther reach, crazy ranged threat range with what is essentially a better Quick Work, and with the death of 3 infantry, -1 POW in melee and +2 POW at range. With the same points, ARM, etc, all its really losing is 4 boxes on the damage grid and the crit on the gun. I don't mind wanting to get away from IF infantry. I just sort of feel like when we get our new releases we keep missing opportunities to get away from it.

For one, if you compare anything of ours to cryx, youll cry. There balenced by something we dont see. I like our Collosal more than the Kraken though, 5 aoes, is great, we have more jack buffs, and we dont need the enemy to give us anything for him to operate. On top of that, we have no idea what it can do plus yet?

[Bullockist]

i thought this thread wasn't silly enough so i thought i'd help out with an anti troop listmade from only basic force books (no wrath)
When deciding the list i thought how about a whole army with aoes.
Here is the result
50 points of stupid!

pvlad (just to help all these aoes hit)
behemoth 13
spriggan 10
5 bombadeirs 11
black ivan 10
2 mortars 6
herne and jonne 3
gorman de wolf

i did have 2 units of bombadiers but alas they areFA 1
There you go living proof that anti troop capability is increasing, oh yeah and DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

[ReaverQueen]

Black Ivan is from Wrath.

[squee]

If a problem cannot be solved by launching more clamjacks at it, it cannot be solved at all.

I still can't fathom why this board is so full of WGDS and Kayazy madness. We clear out mobs just fine.

However now with the release of plastic MoWs i am happily building up some MoW support to me ebutcha clamjack list.
Now we just have to get PP to stop fixating on bringing the game to Unbound levels with massively overpriced superjacks and
GIVE US OUR PLASTIC CLAMJACK!!!

[squee]

It's important to keep in mind that in the book =/= part of the tournament metas.
We have the Demolisher in the book, we don't have it on the table yet. It's role and effectiveness in cons and the like can't be properly measured yet.

I have tried it. I assure you it is beautiful. It keeps my precious mechaniks alive, cos other than my caster they're the only thing in my present lists below ARM 20.

Played a game recently.
eMagnus' forces struggled to take on three ARM 25 jacks and Killboxed my entire battlegroup, ready to kill Butcher next turn.
eMagnus did not expect Two boosted atk POW 15s to the face with pButcher's feat. Sheer hilarity.

Also the Demolisher keeps your devvies rain of death attack from killing your own units. The two work well together.

[ReaverQueen]

See, I was thinking Demolisher + Doom Reavers = hilarity.

I'm just excited for it to be released... one day.

[HeadHunter]

Books =/= released.

Immaterial. Books = you know what the units are, what they can do, and should be able to figure out how they will be used and interact with the models you already have. If you're still surprised about the "new" things someone can do with models that had rules a year ago or more... that's not a change in the environment - it's your inability to adapt.

The little plastic and metal soldiers in the boxes don't come with rules or stats we didn't already have, and they don't change how those existing rules and stats work. Never having played with/against them is no excuse - let's be honest, you haven't played with or against every possible army that does have models out already. Familiarity with the environment is something that's done away from the tabletop as much as upon it.

To put it in your terms: Books = Rules. Models =/= Rules. Models are merely a symbolic representation of a soldier's position on the table. Rules are what we're using when we play.