Yeah. Slow little buggers.
HeadHunter... don't be silly. There's a huge difference between reading all about warmachine and playing it. Between theory machine and actual gameplay. Between Vassal and tabletop, even. There are combos out there and interactions people won't even think of until they're stumbled upon in the game. There are rules questions that come up because of gameplay, make it to the forums, then change the way the game is played or that interaction is resolved.
Saying "its in the book if you don't play it without the model that's your fault" is silly. Without a model the "release" isn't even tournament legal. Why would you spend your practice time training for a model that isn't even in the game? There's more important things to worry about.
But you're free to your opinion, or whatever. Just seems to me you're being silly.
Oh and Heres some numbers for ya.
I'd be surprised if tournament players were spending their time making plans around a warjack that doesn't exist in the tournament circuit. No one goes "ok, better watch out for that Girded Demolisher in Khador lists" because... it simply doesn't exist until the model is released.
So where, then, does this alleged "nerf hammer" come from? A nerf implies that rules have been changed. It's got nothing to do with models.
People are complaining about a "change" that hasn't happened yet, but they're blind to the fact that it hasn't actually happened at all. This is the way things always were, people are just starting to notice it now that they're facing different things.
This is about erosion of complacency and a desire to cling to the status quo. As if that's not enough, "someone" else has to be to blame for it. If people spent as much time and energy in adapting their tactics as they do in making excuses for their failures, victory would be inevitable.
You're just rambling nonsense. The scope of the game is changing all the time. We aren't seeing static MKI releases with just different names or ability combinations. We're seeing entirely new things being introduced to the game all the time. New UAs, Colossals, etc.
Khador seeing nerfs isn't new. MKII brought a variety of "nerfs" to Khador to begin with. pSorscha went from a top tier ( top 3 I'd say ) warcaster to a low/medium tiered warcaster virtually overnight.
Not everyone is complaining about the changes. Most of us are just noting them and talking about how to adapt to them.
@Thrasmycus: I have to disagree with your statements about the relative power of Khador. The list you've posted is going to do well against most of the popular Khador units. You've got good ways to clear out high defense infantry with your aoe's and pGaspy's feat. You've got a reliable way to take down that one heavy jack that folks generally take with your soulhunters and ripjaw.
You've stated you don't want to post your opponent's list, but talk about your Cankerwork running around with the Decimator's gun. So it's obvious that your friend is running far from an optimized list.
I can also see that your list would have a great deal of difficulty with certain Khador casters. PIrusk running infantry spam with Inhospitable Ground would create alot of problems for you. Harkevich with warjacks and MoW's would give you trouble. Your list also has some big weaknesses, such as only one arc node (Ripjaw), limited pathfinder (Cankerworm), etc.
And of course, playing against one person doesn't mean the faction is weak.
One person's experiences are not in fact irrelevant. The argument that "It is only like that for you" is faulty. As long as he is telling the truth you are not seeing one person's experiences but a representative faction of players who belong in a similar category.
The game isn't balanced around THIS group of players but THAT group of players is also faulty logic. You could argue straight math instead since it is not dependent on personal experiences but I can imagine that most anyone will tell you that the math is only useful to a degree. While a complex equation could solve the issue of whether model X or Model Y works better in combat situations I sincerely doubt that any of us has both the talent for that and the necessary drive to factor all the possible variables.
To really get a good grip on balance you'd need data about a much wider range of players than we have access to. IE his data is prejudiced but.... so is yours.
Interesting data in that graph.... Khador is the second most popular high teir faction but the third worst performing. I would never have guessed that Legion was bottom or that we were roughly tied with Cygnar. Slightly confused by the last two graphs however they don't have a good legend it's fairly difficult to tell if I'm reading them correctly. But it could imply that the majority of Khador is terrible and that our best players can stomp everything but Minions.
Last edited by Trihnicus; 05-24-2012 at 03:37 PM.
Yet, the ruels were the same as the night before, and the model was the same as the night before... so what changed? The only possible answer is that other people figured out how to play THEIR stuff better, while the people who complained about "nerfs" clung to their old ways.pSorscha went from a top tier ( top 3 I'd say ) warcaster to a low/medium tiered warcaster virtually overnight.
Maybe I misinterpreted the title and the entire body of the OP, then... adapting is what we need to do, that's what I've been saying from the start. What's changed is the play environment - the way smart players use what they already have - and as long as people think it's something else that's made their own force less effective, they'll never be able to improve. The first step in adapting to the improvements others have made in their own army composition and play style, is to admit that the only factor we can control is our own army composition and play style.Not everyone is complaining about the changes. Most of us are just noting them and talking about how to adapt to them.
Those who are counting on some new unit to save them are always going to be disappointed, because they can't fully utilize what they already have anyhow.
Lots of people like to throw the word meta around and don't really get what it actually means or least apply it . It works on many levels and unless we are all talking at the same level or area (which we aren't as FLGS gaming is wildly different from area to area) as well as our experiences (do we all attend the cons ect .. of course not for most) then we won't find a good median ground to agree on.
Legion probably didn't so well since in placing in part because they won the last con it kind of makes them targets for this one as lots of people will run legion since it proved it can perform well. Next con I'd be surprised if Cryx does as well as people will gun for them and the cycle will continue as that's the way the meta works.
I do hate to point out the obvious though when you say that said saying Cryx is better then Khador ... well yes they can be / are but they are also better then many of the factions so it stands to reason to tweak Cryx down then tune everyone else up.
Colossals are an entirely new model type.
Conquest brings entirely new rules like "Linked Fire" or whatever where a ROF 2 gun can fire twice without spending focus. Creeping Barrage is a 100% new special rule. Sweep is an entirely new, Colossals-only power attack with its own rules.
The game literally -is- changing. New core rules are being introduced for an entirely new class of models.
It's clearly possible to have a strategy or play style invalidated by new releases. Similarly, strategies or play styles that were formerly non viable can suddenly become good. Sylas Wishnailer ( or whatever ) basically completely changed the viability of some casters and armies overnight.
I'll be curious to see what Colossals do for things , at 19 pts they are a hard sell for smaller sized games but they do bring a lot of the table more so then the battle engines (who also took a while to be warmed up to).
I just see Irusk perched on the shoulder of Conquest while upkeeping FFE on his gun.
Or like, Butcher loaded into the Main Guns and fired at the enemy.
I didn't say I was rolling over a Khador player, I would have specified if that was the case. I'm just not really struggling against a few Khador players, some new, some not.
I actually played pretty much the exact list I posted against a pIrusk list with Nyss+Valachev, WGI and Widowmakers, Great bears, mechanics, Beast09 and Black Ivan, the Ternion, the wardog and a unit of Eliminators. It was a good list. I would play that list with confidence. It's got everything I like; Accuracy, good buff targets, solid range game, board control and the Great Bears. Everything went against me. My AoE's were horrible, I lost my Arc Node for no gain to Black Ivan. I feated on 18 squishy models and killed 2 due to crazy tough rolls and low damage rolls. The Eliminators intercepted my Soulhunters and that's a bad deal as Soul Hunters are MAT 6 when not charging. One Soul hunter was able to charge though, collect a soul and the unit killed the Eliminators off, another Soul. That gave me the edge to kill the Great Bears. More souls. That gave me the extra oomph to kill Black Ivan with help from Cankerworm. Anyways, I very accidentally won by scenario but we kept playing. The Widowmakers failed a Command test (on Irusk, yes) and I tied up the Nyss with my thralls and Ogrun long enough to get a Scrap thrall in and blow it up. My Combine kept Beast 09 in check, but it was busy killing Soul Hunters and Cankerworm so I eventually got the charge off. I don't remember how that game ended. It was looking like it would go down to Caster vs Caster though. Inhospitable ground was never cast. Two slow heavies gobble up a lot of focus when pressured, as does having two upkeeps and no Wyshnailer.
Anyways, I wasn't too worried about pIrusk. Old Witch scares me much more.
jdeckert, you asked me for specific examples and if things have gotten 'worse' for us than 'before.' My original post wasn't specifically related to Wrath or any specific model , though I think Legends was a very important book that shook the game up nicely. There obviously is more anti infantry stuff and more blast immune stuff, but that's kind of meaningless if the new stuff doesn't edge out the pre existing stuff as many people have pointed out. Off the top of my head I'd note the Skorne solo that brings them eyeless sight, the Venator UA (a bit like us getting the Mortar) and the Retribution Artificier giving a bit of Blast immunity to anyone, but hey, we really know it's to protect the Mage Hunter Strike Force. So their game got opened up a little and that's a good thing. In Wrath Cygnar got Captain Handsome, possibly putting Rhupert out of a job and now they have a weapon master and pathfinder on demand. Not bad, opens up some plays, no biggie. Legion got Arc nodes! But hey, they don't have that many offensive spells. Martys are so cheap though! I know we got some board control with the Battle Carriage, but pathfinder is just so ubiquitous.
I want to re emphasize my point on pseudo focus. I don't think Khador runs Jacks effectively, eliminating a lot of synergies that we otherwise could have. It's like a big part of our gallery is out of our reach. We can just throw down 3+ Juggernauts, but I think it's a lot to ask people to buy (assemble and paint) multiples of the same model just to play the eggs in one basket list. I find Full Throttle, Unearthly Rage and even Broadside to be 'traps', better in theory machine than real play, and don't really add to our battle group efficiency. Colossals may influence my feelings on this so I'm optimistic. Escort however, is simply excellent.
I really like Strakov (Overrun) and eButcher (Feat) because they both offer non linear threat ranges and the super powerful move/action/move again dynamic. It's what makes Nyss with Valachev and Raptor Light Cavalry so good. It's also why I prefer our WM Marksman (swift hunter) to Kell Bailoch. Being able to advance, attack and retreat in the same turn is either very pg5 or very not pg5, I can't decide.
I've thought of two other plays where Khador struggles.
Power Attacks. I never go into a game with some key power attack in mind. The times when I want to do them usually come up late game. Base SPD 4 stymies our tramples and you can't throw a model when you charge (or headbutt it) With my little bonejacks I'm slamming things all the time. the SPD improvement is really key. For my Slayer to be able to walk 6" and toss something, that's handy. We may be able to one time charge crazy distances, but our non linear jack movement is pretty bad, and that lowers the opportunity for clever game swinging power attacks, as does simply having fewer jacks on the table.
Upkeep shuffling. We've got great upkeeps and they're cheap too, but it's hard to spread your army out and still be able to hot swap our buffs and debuffs. It's another downside to not having Arc Nodes. I like Scrapjack because he's a killer, but also because he allows me to manage my upkeeps more effectively. I put zero faith in Gallows. It's failed me far too many times.
Khador 326pts 57% painted
Mercs 48pts 56% painted
Cryx 26pts 137pts 16% painted
As a MOW lover (the steamburns are interesting, lemme tell you) I dig the meta shift; just give me a Tyrant Commander MOW and I'll never ask for a puppy or Porsche again! I don't really see the nerfhammer in any fashion, but then again I don't own the Deathstar and haven't even put my Kayazay on bases heh. What I'm more worried about is the increasing number of blast-immune or blast-resistant (i.e. choose direction of scatter) units and casters we face. Khador firepower generally goes "make it an AOE!" and the Conquest really epitomizes that. Perhaps the shift towards high-DEF blast-immune though will see the Marauder and other slammers coming off the bench to fling MOW through the lines of Satyxis
Got it? So none of the complaints could possibly be pertaining to this because for one, it's unreleased. It's also unconfirmed material and as you're so fond of noting, until the model hits the table it won't be affecting people (though they can prepare).
So, is Chicken Little running around yelling "Unconfirmed reports say that the sky may be falling soon! The sky is falling as soon as the book and the models are released! Walk slowly for your lives!"
I'm sorry - is this what you think the panic is all about? Talk about a tempest in a teacup.
It's like 3 weeks away and most of the Colossal rules are confirmed in NQ. We're closer to having Conquest than we are to having a Demolisher.
Which means we're closer to suffering 5 AOEs a turn than we are to getting in-faction Girded.
Which means we're closer to having our infantry blaster apart than we are to protecting them from being blasted apart.
My logic, undeniable~
Me? I'm fine. I play AKs, IFP, and WGRC. I don't even own Kayazy or the WGDS - never needed them. Heck, I don't even own Kovnik Joe.
My 15 point Khador Army is a WGDS - but I'm not too concerned. If Colossals are the only thing that has everyone trembling in their boots, I think it will be OK. Sure, you'll see them in major tournaments - but between the expense, the difficulty in assembly, and the time to paint them, they'll be fewer than some might expect.
And anyone who lets someone proxy for a Colossal and then gets pounded... well, you asked for it.
I think we'll be fine. Like everyone else, we'll need to modify our tactics a bit, and new army lists will arise, and the game will go on. It's not the Khardic Apocalypse or anything.
No. That was being able to shake Stationary.
I havnt really played that long to feel any changes, but i want a demolisher for harkevich, how can they release new books with the old book incomplete?
Great discussion thrasymacus! A couple of thoughts:
Regarding other power attacks: I think that's where our other warjacks come in. The Kodiak having Grab-and-Smash is a very useful feature (though again, MAT 6,) because it allows for charging 2 handed throws, which can open up all kinds of shenanigans. Likewise, the Marauder can pull off slam angles that aren't normally possible, which allow for similar shenanigans.
What monkey wrenches those options are the same things that always screw with us (low SPD, mediocre MAT,) but that's a more global issue. We have the tools; if we could just apply them more readily/consistently, we'd have all kinds of shenanigans.
Also, I 100% agree about Gallows. If there was ever a "trap" spell, it's that one. I have that spell on two different models (Old Witch and Bethayne,) and it's failed me wonderfully every damn time I've tried to use it. 3 focus for a 1" push is never worth it.
This thread doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. We haven't even seen the rules, I think perhaps we should refrain from having a Protectorate Style Freak out, till we actually see the rules.
Will Colossals change the game, absolutely. Having an insanely durable model that can toe in objectives and can't be moved out of them is very powerful. The thing to remember there are tons of layers of how Colossals will change the game and we can't quite determine that without knowing the full context of their rules.
As for the increased Infantry hate, that also doesn't track. Nothing has been put into the game that is worse the stuff we already had to cope with.
pKrueger has been live since the Hordes field test, and he devastates high defense low armor spam, Dead Eyed/Gun Mages have been the game since the MK2 field test. Vanquishers have also been in the game for the same duration of time.
There are a couple of new choices for factions to deal with it, but very few factions were ever completely helpless against it(Except Skorne who handle it a ton better now).
What I think is happening is people are actually considering how to counter builds from Khador now that they have become popular and prevalent. The answer to all your problems is instead of taking Nyss, and Kayazy, take Nyss and Fangs, or Kayazys and Fangs. Iron Fangs are crazy, crazy strong and nearly immune to all the things that kill our other models(Vanquisher and Ravagore aside), and are nasty in combat.
No Pity for the Majority
Cygnar's covering fire... so much better than ours. LOL
Oh PP. You silly gooses.
If Conquest's card isn't as busy looking with special rules and sheer volume of attacks, I'm personally boycotting him.
Having a Mule taped to two PS 22 fists ( melee focus on a huge model is stupid anyway ) in no way compares to Stormwall.
Maybe I'm being a whiner but... if the back of Conquest's card is,
Crit Devastation - models are thrown blah blah
Linked Guns - fire ROF without spending focus blah blah
Creeping Barrage - blah blah
Well... I just won't buy one. Ever.
For Conquest, we have spoilers gleaned from a NQ battle report.
For Stormwall, we have the actual cards sitting right in front of us.
Every single time I've seen incomplete spoilers, it always leads to people getting all worked up when some set of more complete information shows up, and the "grass is greener" syndrome sets in. When the dust settles, it's almost never as bad as the first impressions.
Trust me, I share your reservations. I'm personally terrified that Conquest will be MAT 5, RAT 4, and make me extremely sad. But at this point, there is so much we don't know and can only speculate about that it isn't worth comparing and getting frustrated or otherwise worked up. Enjoy Stormwall for what it is, and we'll see what Conquest looks like when we see it's rules (which should be a hot week away, once someone gets him for L&L.)
It's just hard to shake this card agoraphobia Khador PP has developed in me!
Orus has, as always, made his point very well with no error
Press Ganger for the North Denver Metro Area.
Head Warmachine/Hordes Organizer for Feast of Blades.
Destroyer's Crit effect going to interact with Collasals' weapon systems in interesting ways.
I've been playing Khador for almost a year now, and I have NEVER, not once, used WGI or Kayazy in a single list. MoW ST have been my infantry in every single list and that won't change. I love them. I love their damage, their survivability, their stats, their base size, and especially their look. I hate their SPD, but they don't really die on the way to the enemy lines so it's fine with me. The mechanik UA sucks though, that entire unit blows.
... I don't mean to be contentious, but our Mechaniks are some of the best in the game. Only Cygnar manages to compete with our ability to repair. At 2-3 points the unit is practically a steal. The UA being 2 points still points it in the well-affordable range.