Retribution really needs.....

[FranzGrenstein]

I'm already mentally prepared for Hyperion to cost 21 points, just in case

You too, huh

[joelker41]

I actually am excited by Hyperion. All the Vyre jacks are incredibly well costed and while there may be some dumb point wasting elements on all colossals I think Hyperion will be good. I don't expect them to AFG us again.

[PG_Sobek]

Well at least in about a week and a half we will know what is in the book and can discuss that for a while.

You're assuming that the book will be available at L&L. I'm certainly hoping that it will be; I'm trying not to get my hopes up TOO much in anticipation.

Yes, we can deal with some stealth, even large amounts of infantry. But it's the Stealthed heavies that are the problem. Something like Mage Sight would go a long way to improving our odds vs Shadow Pack and not be unreasonable to ask for.

Notions like this always make me feel like a crotchety old man: "You young whipper snappers. Always crying about stealth mitigation, and not having it. Why, I remember, back in my days of Mark I Prime, when the books were in black and white, before they invented color printing, we didn't have stealth mitigation. There was no such thing. If we wanted to deal with stealth, we ran both ways, uphill, through the snow and punched it in the face. And we liked it! We loved it....."

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

I actually am excited by Hyperion. All the Vyre jacks are incredibly well costed and while there may be some dumb point wasting elements on all colossals I think Hyperion will be good. I don't expect them to AFG us again.

HAHA! You made AFG a verb. Well played.

[Pinegulf]

Less complainy players.

[RetributionBomb]

Haha, I like that a lot. To be AFGed.

[AJ the Ronin]

That's like be Britta'ed but Retribution style?

[joelker41]

The verb is born!

[Gho5t]

Yes, we can deal with some stealth, even large amounts of infantry. But it's the Stealthed heavies that are the problem. Something like Mage Sight would go a long way to improving our odds vs Shadow Pack and not be unreasonable to ask for.

Yeah, I agree with this. So our MHSF can see through walls. They're still only POW 10 crossbows. Our hardest counters are due to Stealth, and they've been resisting giving us a way to even it out. Does it make more sense to allow a faction to have answers for everything or let them have a very hard counter forever?


And if melee is truly our best answer, why haven't more Ret players been able to use it successfully? The reports from big tournaments indicate that Ret players are either all fools with nothing but shooting/magic lists or that this tactic isn't really working for us too well.
Or that the best players at tourneys aren't bringing Ret models.

[RetributionBomb]

Yeah, I agree with this. So our MHSF can see through walls. They're still only POW 10 crossbows. Our hardest counters are due to Stealth, and they've been resisting giving us a way to even it out. Does it make more sense to allow a faction to have answers for everything or let them have a very hard counter forever?


And if melee is truly our best answer, why haven't more Ret players been able to use it successfully? The reports from big tournaments indicate that Ret players are either all fools with nothing but shooting/magic lists or that this tactic isn't really working for us too well.
Or that the best players at tourneys aren't bringing Ret models.

Melee is an answer, and while we have the tools in the Halbs and Sentinels, they are still very easy to kill if the opponent wants to. We don't have anything like Bane Thralls, Exemplar Errants, Kayazy, Daughters, Winterguard ... ect, that are really really hard to kill. Though Kayazy, Winterguard, and Daughters only become hard to kill with buffs. So really thats what we need, Iron Flesh or Defenders Ward.

[AJ the Ronin]

You know, I'm going to add something else to my wish list: A "Gimmick Caster".

By that I mean a caster that either has another model (like Goreshade1, Nemo3, Old Witch, Borka, etc.) or transform into something (Kormac, Bethayne). Why? Because they are fun

[gaminguy]

Hah! I was just about to start a topic called "Xerxis, what if...."
...

He doesn't seem to be at all popular with the Skorne players, and this is my opinion why: Hordes runs Beasts much better than WM runs Jacks. Skorne also has two massive perks for this in the Beast Masters and the Agonizer. And Skorne's Titans are some of the hittyist things in the game.
Hordes has poorer infantry, supposedly, to counteract this. So why would you run an Infantry Warlock in a faction that has crazy powerful Beasts and helps for running them?!

We did a numerical analysis on that a while back; Xerxis is actually our most popular warlock. He isn't very many people's top choice, but he's a whole lot of people's #2 or #3.

[themocaw]

To be fair, it took it did take a little longer this time. All the I'm new look at me!' Threads were a little more clogging this month LOL.

I'm waiting for the 'why is the AFG 10 points' thread is next. Again, and again....

And for old time's sake: "All this and still no Destors?"

[Shiasai]

I have no experience with groups of stealthed heavies like a shadowpack but are they really such a trouble unless thay are all ranged beast/jacks? I know Ret is very fond of shooting things to death but they can be scary in melee and thats what I've seen taking down heavies. Sentinels, MHA, MHSF and some retjacks always make my jacks nervous

[RetributionBomb]

I have no experience with groups of stealthed heavies like a shadowpack but are they really such a trouble unless thay are all ranged beast/jacks? I know Ret is very fond of shooting things to death but they can be scary in melee and thats what I've seen taking down heavies. Sentinels, MHA, MHSF and some retjacks always make my jacks nervous

The two casters who have Shadow Pack can easily counter our melee.

eKaya - Being in circle they already have access to amazing anti-infantry solos such as the Whitemane, Lord of the Feast, and Blackclad Spray. eKaya can easily send in a Berserking Stalker and other heavy hitter to trash out jacks and some infantry and with the Blackclad and Dog Pile they out threat anything we have. Then she Feats and teleports them all back 12 inches, making them safe from reprisal.

eLylyth - She can easily stock up on range beasts such as the Ravagore and Nephilim Bolt Thrower, and since they all ignore stealth and have a range of 10-12 they can easily tear up our jacks or blow away our infantry.

[Shiasai]

I see. Legion sure like their ranged beasts with eLylyth and circle have their teleporttricks which makes them jump all over the board. Solution in progress anyone?

[Lord Sessadore]

Best solution for Ret vs. Lylyth2 at the moment is to do an all out blitz across the board to engage her army in melee. Easier said than done, since her feat gives her army snipe for the turn - 16-18" is too far for most things to run. And of course, once you've got them engaged you still need to do some killing.

It can be done, but Lylyth2 played by a good player is a very, very difficult match for Retribution.

[Gho5t]

I see. Legion sure like their ranged beasts with eLylyth and circle have their teleporttricks which makes them jump all over the board. Solution in progress anyone?

There's that stickied thread at the top there. But everyone still seems to have problems.
Murk seemed to be experimenting with solutions with Ossy for a while, but I'm not sure if he came up with anything bulletproof. If he reads this, he should let us know his results.

[Cannotcope]

Retribution "needs":

Battlemage Flying Light Cavalry
Mage Hunter Tunneling Team
Houseguard Spray Unit
Destor Character Unit

[AJ the Ronin]

Battlemage Flying Light Cavalry

For some reason the first thing that pop into my head when I read that were Mittens on flying stingrays.

[Gho5t]

For some reason the first thing that pop into my head when I read that were Mittens on flying stingrays.

I was thinking they'd be riding MLP-type pegasi. Tally ho!

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

There's that stickied thread at the top there. But everyone still seems to have problems.
Murk seemed to be experimenting with solutions with Ossy for a while, but I'm not sure if he came up with anything bulletproof. If he reads this, he should let us know his results.

I don't want to speak for him, but last I heard Murk's meta adapted to the Ossyan's abilities after some initial successes and Ossy fares no better in this matchup than any other caster.

[Gho5t]

I don't want to speak for him, but last I heard Murk's meta adapted to the Ossyan's abilities after some initial successes and Ossy fares no better in this matchup than any other caster.

Curses! Foiled again!!

[Cannotcope]

For some reason the first thing that pop into my head when I read that were Mittens on flying stingrays.

Mittens on Flying Mecha-Stingrays

[FranzGrenstein]

I was thinking they'd be riding MLP-type pegasi. Tally ho!

Take that stuff to the Cryx forum, bronie. *shudder*

[AJ the Ronin]

Mittens on Flying Mecha-Stingrays

Please?

They will also have a spear with the poison ability. The unit will be called Vyre Telegonus Battle Mages Cavalry Unit

[Murkhadh]

There's that stickied thread at the top there. But everyone still seems to have problems.
Murk seemed to be experimenting with solutions with Ossy for a while, but I'm not sure if he came up with anything bulletproof. If he reads this, he should let us know his results.

I definitely did NOT come up with anything bullet proof. As Dawnlord Ed said, I had some initial success but my meta adapted to Ossyan and I've all but given up on him.

I've currently decided to go back to Rahn again vs eLylyth. It will require favorable terrain, but getting battle mages to cover helps them survive the approach. Sending Ravagore aoe's away with FF also requires some luck but is good when it works.

My hordes faction is legion and I love playing eLylth. When I think about how I would feel about playing eLylth facing any of my own ideas to counter her using ret, none of them honestly scare me.

Okay with Ossyan, quickened mage hunters to get there and engage, rest of army advances to clean up etc.

Lylyth herself can kill 3 to 4 mhsf on the feat turn, the deathstalkers if they get to aim need 6's to hit, ravagore aoe's still kill on less than average rolls. Annyssa ryvaal should probably put prey on them and when she does she needs 7's to hit and can threat them from 14 inches away.

the raptors need those same 7's to hit and can threat them from the same distance.

THEN when the naga comes out and I can ignore quicken with blessed weapons, this all gets much worse.

I've never lost to any ret list playing eLylyth.

What gives eLylyth problems in my experience, are abilites like tough and sac whatever that errants have.

Lylyth herself relies on snapfire to get more shots, so do the death stalkers and anyssa ryvaal.

Your opponent hitting a tough roll or the errants using the sac ability negates snapfire.

This type of stuff lets the models survive long enough to get your gun line engaged which is when things start to go bad for her. Ret doesn't have any of this.

[GunSeraph06]

I've had some success using Nyss Hunters with Ossy since they can benefit from Quicken, decent for moving to objectives or being a far-reaching tarpit unit, and 12 in charge with weapon master doesn't hurt

[Calcifar]

(and many of the same people in the same ways)

Why did thy summon me ?


Oh right. It is time again to point out in great detail, why Ret sucks.

What Ret needs...

Privateer Press love.



Anti Stealth, competative casters,
more power models,
more players, character unit,
cav which doesnt suck, infantry buff spells, good feats,
not to depend on lucky dice,
more people complaining about inbalance,
To be acknowledged as a real faction;




Badly.






Sorry I dont have more today.

[Cannotcope]

Okay with Ossyan, quickened mage hunters to get there and engage, rest of army advances to clean up etc.

Lylyth herself can kill 3 to 4 mhsf on the feat turn, the deathstalkers if they get to aim need 6's to hit, ravagore aoe's still kill on less than average rolls. Annyssa ryvaal should probably put prey on them and when she does she needs 7's to hit and can threat them from 14 inches away.

the raptors need those same 7's to hit and can threat them from the same distance.

The bolded stuff doesn't ignore Stealth on the MHSF, and shouldn't be a huge* concern for them on the rush in. That said, between the Ravagores and Lylyth, with Naga support, it's likely that the first pile of MHSF will be in pain.

*Yeah they can still move into 5" range and blast away, but at least at that point they're closer to the rest of your stuff.

I know it's still a bad match up.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I was thinking they'd be riding MLP-type pegasi. Tally ho!

Well I was thinking of a flying cloud as per Monkey Magic:



But that'd be cool too

Take that stuff to the Cryx forum, bronie. *shudder*

You might want to show some appreciation for that horse you are charging at windmills on



Join us Franzie. We have cup cakes.

[Gho5t]

Take that stuff to the Cryx forum, bronie. *shudder*

Haha, I'm actually not a brony. A lot of my friends are, so I've been exposed to the obsession.

So MHSF + Quicken, run like hell to engage stuff, try to run everything else in/within stealth range (Halberdiers, Archers?, etc.), have Aspis and/or Discordia/Artificer to keep Ossyan alive? Mmm, I feel like everything will still get eaten alive. How does this tactic work against NOT eLylyth? Seems like it's almost blindly aggressive in those other cases that will get your models killed. At least it's a plan, I suppose...

So yeah, something to balance out that match up a little would be nice.

[Cannotcope]

So yeah, something to balance out that match up a little would be nice.

Mittens on Flying Mecha-Stingrays, with the following magic ability:
Wind Ravager (see the Legion Hellion)

Would that help enough? Too much?

[AJ the Ronin]

Anti Stealth,

Won't happen

competative casters,

We have them. Or you mean broken?

more power models,

Some of our models are among the most powerful in the game

more players,

I try

character unit,

I agree

cav which doesnt suck,

Mittens in MECHA-Stingrays!!!!

infantry buff spells, good feats,
not to depend on lucky dice,

All this I agree

more people complaining about inbalance,

You are doing your part

To be acknowledged as a real faction;

We are the Rodney Dangerfield of Warmachine

[Marshal Wilhelm]

We have them. Or you mean broken?

Yes, I would like one broken: Caster, Myrmidon & Unit.

We already have Eiryss, after all

That way, when tournament time happens, we don't have to quiver when the other factions who do have the broken stuff rolls it out. I think this stuff doesn't have to be played all the time, such as at your club, etc.

You see, PP won't undo those broken units in other factions. Unless I am totally wrong and they do for MK3 XD. Until that day, what is the big deal with us also having some 'it goes to 11!' dudes of our own?
Nothing.

You've seen Murkhadh's posts on eLylyth, both as a LoE player, and as a RoS player.
That he can come to that conclusion, as a guy who seems fair minded and even handed, just frustrates me. There is obviously powa! differences, and I want some of that pie too thanks. No more, certainly, but no less than what the others can dine on.

Fair's fair.

[RetributionBomb]

We are the Rodney Dangerfield of Warmachine

So when are we all getting laid?

[AJ the Ronin]

Fair's fair.

I rather have PP errata Lylyth2 rather than break the game with more broken stuff. They can do it. It will just take time. After all they did errata Sorcha in Mk.1 and she was a nasty piece of ---- back in the day.

And I got and understand the desire for something 'OMG da Brokenz' (I did that right?). Call me a cynic or a pessimist, but it won't happen. Fair of not that's our lot in Mk.2.

Just hope they errata her somehow (best way is to have Eyeless Sight not ignore stealth but that won't help that much either).

[AJ the Ronin]

So when are we all getting laid?

I...don't know how to reply to this without getting banned...


Edit to try a PG answer: As soon as the collective getting laid strategy is a good as Rodney. I'm doing my part. Are you?

[Lord Sessadore]

You've seen Murkhadh's posts on eLylyth, both as a LoE player, and as a RoS player.
That he can come to that conclusion, as a guy who seems fair minded and even handed, just frustrates me. There is obviously powa! differences, and I want some of that pie too thanks. No more, certainly, but no less than what the others can dine on.

Fair's fair.

I think the thing about eLylyth (and Murkadh or anyone else who actually knows feel free to correct me - I'm definitely not as familiar with how specific matchups between other factions pan out, since I only play Ret) is that she isn't nearly as dominating against other factions. Powerful, yes, but it just seems like she's the perfect arrow aimed at Ret's Achille's heel. Off the top of my head, I have a feeling that she wouldn't be that great against a Khador WGDS/Kayazy Iron Flesh list, since then pretty much the deadliest thing would be her Ravagores' AOEs, and even then the WG probably have tough from Joe. Likewise with, say, a Skarre Satyxis blitz list. Again, correct me if I'm mistaken, anyone.

At least for now. The landscape of the game changes with every release, after all - Vyros2, Hyperion, or anything else in the book (assuming we get anything else, still not really getting hopes up, better to get a good surprise than a bad one) could answer eLylyth for us.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I rather have PP errata Lylyth2 rather than break the game with more broken stuff. They can do it. It will just take time. After all they did errata Sorcha in Mk.1 and she was a nasty piece of ---- back in the day.

This would be my first choice. Make it so that everything is even, instead of a band-aid fix.

I think the thing about eLylyth (and Murkadh or anyone else who actually knows feel free to correct me - I'm definitely not as familiar with how specific matchups between other factions pan out, since I only play Ret) is that she isn't nearly as dominating against other factions. Powerful, yes, but it just seems like she's the perfect arrow aimed at Ret's Achille's heel. Off the top of my head, I have a feeling that she wouldn't be that great against a Khador WGDS/Kayazy Iron Flesh list, since then pretty much the deadliest thing would be her Ravagores' AOEs, and even then the WG probably have tough from Joe. Likewise with, say, a Skarre Satyxis blitz list. Again, correct me if I'm mistaken, anyone.

Would you say eLylyth versus not-Ret, would be as or more powerful than the best we can put out?
As in, take whatever faction, Minions, Khador, etc. and have eLylyth play against it and then have Rahn, Ravyn or Ossyan play the same list. Would those three be doing as well, without specific list-tailoring to whatever is being specifically brought, as eLylyth?

LoE has stealth. We have little ranged anti-stealth.
LoE has all the anti-stealth options we do, generally speaking. And eyeless sight, on things whose shooting is solid.

And we don't have any readily available Iron Flesh or Tough solutions.

Given the RoS isn't that popular a faction, I'd have wanted to make sure RoS didn't have any 'oh, GG' moments as soon as hearing what the opponent is bringing if I were PP. Especially as LoE is so popular.

If something odd happens, like the least favoured Khador Caster happening to have a sweet ride against us, well, you know, things can't be perfect. But when a heavily used Caster from a heavily used Faction has an auto-win, that seems like shooting yourself in the foot, as the company putting out this stuff. To my eyes, anyway.

Or maybe its just that all the actually skilful players happen to like LoE fluff?... Idk....
/iTroll.
:P