What is the big deal about a pow 10 pistol? I dont see how these guys are viable against jack heavy/beast heavy lists. Am I missing something?
Have alook at there abilities and synergies within Scenario. With deadeye and a few feats it really becomes a rough unit, snipe to deal with back play models.(choir beast handlers, Shepherds Forsaken just to name a few) then those big heavies move them out of scenario points so you dont have to worry about to much reprisal.
all in all bro they are a great tool in scenarios. sniping Stealth models is just icing on the cake.
It's not the power 10 of the gun thats amazing.
It's their abilities with it. You need the UA for them, to get true sight. They have magic ranged weapons (which are scarce in this game) so they can hurt incorperals and the like. They ignore steath, but also concealment and camoflage, that means they hit widowmakers hiding in forests on 7's. With dead eye they're down right dirty. They can pick off winter guards with Iron Flesh at 14" and hit on average, if they aim they'll have a 83% chance of hitting bub and weaved winterguard with Iron flesh.
They aren't going to do a lot of damage to warbeasts or heavy jacks, but they can push them out of zones so you can win on scenario, or they can just make their little combined attack for a pow 17 hit (not spectacular by any means). Again with dead eye and critical brutal they have about 5/12 chance of getting a critical for 3D +10 (20) damage on average.
Remember that most models with defensive skills like stealth have fairly low armor, so they'll drop like flies once the gunmages come calling.
All in all, this is in my opinion our best and most unique unit due to it's ability to bullseye whatever you need bullseyed and a lot of our warcasters support them in some way or another.
They're great at killing infantry, and whether you're playing scenario or caster kill being able to push things around at will is a pretty big deal. Their CRA and ability to ignore a lot of anti-ranged tech also makes them pretty good. They're one of those units that plays better on the table than they look on paper. They're also the best jack marshals in the game outside of Thor Steinhammer, and they have great jacks to marshal. Gun Mages + Defender is a pretty pricey package, but it's worth every single point in my games. Same with Gun Mages + Mule under Ashlynn :P
People have already covered most of the points I wanted to make but just to offer something constructive, a point on the marshalling. I never felt they really give that much to defenders so I used to run them with 2 Hunters. Worked great. Now though, we have a new toy I feel works even better for them. Avenger. You'll be putting snipe on it most of the time but it becomes hillarious with pushback. Use Gun Mages with push bullets to get a nice juicy low defence heavy next to opponent's caster (you'd be surprised how easy it is to do this), then shoot it with Avenger and voila, KDed caster and you probably have the game in the bag. (if not, try this with eStryker or eCaine).
If people could put rainbows in zoos, they'd do it.
Also worth noting, under eCaine they get gunfighter. If they end up in melee (which they shouldn't) and survive, they have a greater chance of resolving the issue then when they're not gunfighter.
And eCaines heightened reflexes-spell can be nice to put on them, in combo with Rhupert. knockdown-immunity plus tough? That can extend their survivability. (A cygnar player at my club once spent two hunters and two shots from Black 13 to kill one gun mage thanks to that)
Oh, and they look cool!
Painted: Cygnar: 122pts, 6 casters | Legion of Everblight: 15pts, 2 warlocks | Khador: 11pts, 1 casters | Mercs: 38pts, 0 casters
My Cygnar, Legion, Mercs and Khador painting log
They really shine when marshalling a jack, Cyclone or Defender using their shots is amazing.
I have had huge amounts of success with a cyclone on them. 2d3 knockbacks makes for a LOT of board control.
They have the ability to hit anything reliably and do anything that could conceivably piss off your opponent.
Oh, your infantry? Yeah I can shoot them. Your high ARM? CRA/crit Brutal. Superjack clogging the scenario point? Thunderbolt until he's down. Incorporeal/Stealth? The Dude. Wish your warjack could be like your gun mages? Marshal it.
They aren't amazing against many beasts/jacks, but they are still excellent for removing those pesky support solos (elephants aren't anywhere near as scary without paingivers, for example).
In a pinch, they can also thunderbolt enemy jacks out of position (this is especially useful if you have deadeye to increase your chance for a crit knockdown).
They are incredible with a Defender or Hunter. I have heard folks brag about them with an avenger or Cyclone, but I have never used those Jacks before.
A range 20 Defender....still scares me and I use it.
They are great but just like all other infantry in Cygnar you don't need to auto-include them in every list. Mine are painted, so they are seen a lot. LOL!
My whole entire unit, is dangerous.
Try using a pCaine list and have the ATGM UA marshall a Cyclone (or two). Caine casts Snipe on the Cyclone (cycling spell for two). And just walk it up and Thunderbolt your enemy away. POW 12's will kill things, d3" push back with each shot, & Crit KD. B/c of wording on Deadeye, that spell is best left to the unit of ATGM, but ultimately, its hilarious to watch your enemy struggle to swim upstream of the pushback shots.
The counter to this tactic, is that "push" will stop at another model's base/obstacle/obstruction. So you you try to push something, make sure you've killed off whatever is behind it, or the distance you push will be negligible.
Most people rather use the Arlan + ATGM UA +Jack combo: where whatever is being marshalled already has access to a "boost" from the JM. But by giving it a focus, you can double boost. Since the Hunter & Defender only have a single shot to boost, you can boost for ATK (3d6 has a higher chance of crit effect) and IF the Crit Brutal(which states "add extra die") goes off, your DMG roll can go from 3d6 to 4d6.
There are TONS of tactic writeups on the difference between the 2 jacks, it really comes down to point cost & whether or not you are hunting Med/Lrg bases(Hunter) or small bases(Defender).
Last edited by jking_3rd; 05-23-2012 at 11:10 AM.
Attach a Mule or two to the UA and watch them rain down havoc. Oh wait... Cygnar forum. Thanks for the Gun Mages guys, they are awesome.
Mercenary, now and forever.
Oh ignore Magnus. He didn't get a plushie so now he's one himself.
The ATGM are more useful for their effects than their raw stats but as a shooty unit of DEF 15 and RAT 7, they're a really difficult to out-shoot, and highly effective, shooty unit. Yes, against beast/jack heavy lists they don't do so well, and are reduced to doing a lot of pushback and knockdown.
In these cases, as mentioned, they can switch to a anti-solo/warcaster function. No warcaster on a small base will be entirely happy about POW 10s with a chance of a crit brutal damage.
The gun mages, especially with their UA, need little support to be effective in almost any battle. With support (Blur, Deadeye, a warjack protecting them and using Rune Shot) they become good in almost any situation.
They are one of those units that proves surprisingly effective in a lot of circumstances. I've had them hold off jacks, shred infantry, and assasinate warcasters.
Try 'em. You might like 'em.
"No, thats the way YOU do it. I do it a different way..."
@Ysthrall - Thanks for that summary. My biggest concern right now is that I am trying to figure out what models I need to buy for my Cygnar army, seeing how everyone almost auto includes the mages I was just wondering why. As I had mentioned earlier my local meta is a lot of beast/jack heavy lists, and other than the knock-back ability on the back of the card it did not seem like there was much else that the mages could do. What are some of the other Cygnar or Merc options that you would recommend in dealing with beasts and jacks?
Feel free to take a look at a list I threw up for what I am thinking of running/buying for Cygnar
@OP - Before buying any Cygnar infantry I'd pick the casters you depend on focusing on first. That will lead to your direction for purchases. I use different Cygnar/Merc infantry in every list. The only thing close to an auto-purchase is Boomhowlers and Gun Mages. Those two units fit into the most lists imo.
My whole entire unit, is dangerous.
@Magnus - I understand that you might be joking, but that kind of stuff tends to not translate well via text. Comments like that when taken at face value really cause newer players like myself to hesitate bringing questions to the boards.
The others brought up all the major points. Gun Mages are just a great toolbox with a variety of ways of dealing with situations. I almost always take them with the UA marshalling a Defender and Arlan Strangewayes nearby for Power Booster. Fully boosted POW15 with Snipe or Critical Brutal is fantastic.
Also, the new models are gorgeous...
Last edited by Alex C; 05-23-2012 at 05:40 PM.
Best thing ever?
Looking at the table and realising the opponent is more dedicated to killing your Gun Mages than your Warcaster.
For me, ATGM are only ever Auto-include in lists where the caster has Deadeye. Otherwise the crit chance is so negligible its laughable. And POW 10 is just as worthless. However, there are more advanced circumstances where I will include them. Maybe with a caster who has Snipe. Or pHaley for her feat. Or eCaine b/c of the Cadre bonus.
The real auto includes are solos & mercs.
- Arlan Strangeways
- Black 13
- Harlan Vash
There are numerous opinions on who is auto include, but the ATGM aren't really in there. However, as mentioned thier utilization, especially through Pushback, Magic ranged attacks, & ability to see through Stealth w/ UA are Very useful. The unit is definitely worth investing in.
Last edited by jking_3rd; 05-23-2012 at 09:01 PM.
They just bring so much utility, it more than makes up for their lackluster POW. And as others have mentioned, a marshaled jack that gets the critical brutal shot off is deadly. Nobody wants to be hit by a range 16 pow 15 attack with 4d6 damage.
A full unit with deadeye is also great for clearing Line of Sight to critical targets. Enemy 'caster hiding behind his 'jacks? Deadeye your gun mages and knock the 'jacks down so your big guns can shoot the 'caster. Combine them with models with disruption (like Stormcallers) and disrupt the knocked down 'jacks so they can't shake off on their turn. And honestly, a POW 17 isn't bad in a pinch, when you just need to put a little more damage on a 'jack or 'beast to destroy it.
So, while they really aren't an anti-heavy-armor unit, they're still extremely useful even when all your opponent has is heavy armor.
As an aside, I find they work well vs Hordes if backed up by Victor Pendrake. Who can either give them Deadeye equivalent vs warbeasts, or knock down a beastie himself, or indeed join in the infantry clearance. Very nice 2 point solo, and he's Cygnar not Minions when with the Swan.
As for dealing with beasts/jacks. theres more than a few threads ion this subject, however:
Stormblades, our pseudo-weaponsmasters hitting hard and well, their trouble is getting the charge and surviving for very long.
Sword knights backing up another jack. A cheap unit that could be considered a "warjack-attachment", useful against whatever the jack is engaging due to MAT 8 weaponsmaster, courtesy of Flank.
Long Gunners. Losing out to the gun mages for flexibility, their CRAs and amount of potential firepower can do horrible things to a warjack/warbeast that they can shoot at. Trouble is, they'll probably get engaged or AOEd in return. Depending on mathcup, can be lethally effective.
Stormsmith Stormcallers. For 1 point each, a good "attack" that isn't an attack, ignores DEF and stealth et al, does POW 10 disruption and under eNemo, is at POW 12. Useful vs jacks, not quite so much against warbeasts, although many a support solo and light beast has found that they can't hide from my Mad Scientists.
Cyclone. Marshalled to the Gun mages this'll give you 2d3 POW 12 shots, with their rune bullets. Unlikely to get a crit, but still nice.
and of course...
the Hunter light jack. Sometimes derided, but it's fast, mobile (pathfinder and parry), can put a few dents in any heavy at range 14" (for nasty damage, try two of them) and at RAT 7, the best shot warjack/warbeast in the game, AFAICT. Also horrendously effective on any warcaster/lock on a medium base. Your opponents will learn to squash the sniperjack as soon as they see it...
(also woot! 1000 posts )
Last edited by Ysthrall; 05-25-2012 at 01:56 AM.
"No, thats the way YOU do it. I do it a different way..."