I really want to like Thyra but...

[Spartan31337]

So, i've been branching out into other of our ?less used? casters, and i'm really really trying to like Thyra. I've got her, her unit of daughters, and blood of martyrs all painted up and have played three games with her.

The list was as follows:

thyra
blood of martyrs
full idrians + ua
daughters
KE
covenant
gorman
rupert
epic eyriss

The first was against mercs, the caster was the one that makes his model's guns become AOE 3, and his personal gun deviates like 3 times each shot....so for a list that relies on stealth/high defenses and has low armor, yeah, got pretty squished. Had a line on his caster through BoM, but was out of the initial charge range by a quarter inch, so couldn't start the sidestep chain. What I learned: no way I could have won a scenario in that situation. Had to go for the caster kill but my army was largely dying around me.

The second game was against scorne, don't remember the name of the caster but it's the one with the two large maces. Made one of his beasts (gladiator) idrian's prey, and after a volley of full shots, 2 man cra's, only managed to take out the body of the beast...not the ?heavy killer unit? that I have read on the forums by any means. Maybe if I had charged afterwards, but doesn't seem likely. Lost that game to caster kill, basically I forgot that the gladiator has follow up, and he slammed BoM over thyra, followed up till he was in melee with her, and boosted-beat her down. Sad part is I saw it coming (the slam part, anyway), had no knockdown from the book up, but after the game I thought of about 4 different things I could have done that would have prevented that loss completely (infantry screen between BoM and the titan, gorman cloud screen so titan couldn't see the BoM to slam, thyra cast pursuit on the titan, something else...). So I learned from that game how better to protect. Sad part was if I had survived that turn, I would have won as his caster was within 12? of thyra with not a bit of difficult terrain.

Third game was against the merc player from the first game, he used ashlynn (I think, the one with the feat where you roll extra dice and he gets to pick the ones you use). This was more of a slog, with attrition going left and right, but I lost gorman, eyriss, in short order. He brought a unit of gun mages (again, negates most of my defenses vs ranged). I never really had an assassination opportunity, due to a forest in front of thyra that prevented me from charging through and overtaking to his caster, and the BoM was rather ineffectual (it took out a light jack, only thing all game). After awhile I got bored and just stuck thyra out there, where she was charged by his caster and taken out.

So, needless to say i'm not having much luck. None of these were scenario based, but I never really had a good shot at a win (barring the 2nd game vs hordes, that i'll take as my error). The merc player i've played many times before and win against him, so it's not a difference in skill level. I think part of it is that i'm used to playing harbinger, efeora, psevvy, who have completely different play styles. Granted, efeora can get up there, but I play her defensively. I'm not used to having such an aggressive caster. So I understand that it is a learning curve.

Also, i'm not impressed with the idrians. I think errants would benefit more from the stealth, and have greater staying power (not as bothered by blast damage, self sac, etc), and can reliably threaten troops and heavies (even PS9, weapon master can seriously hurt a light and warbeast, and can put damage on heavy jacks), and are a bigger tool box. Plus, with the change in points, I could add wracks plus either madelyn (extra move), saxon (pathfinder for thyra, but seems reduntand with rhupert), heirophant, other 2 point solo, or add nicia.

Any advice all you might sages can give me? Anyone use her often and have any insight to share? Have I just been against really bad matchups? It's rather frustrating for me at this stage, as I can pretty reliabily pull off a win against most of the people in my LGS, and I really want to like thyra as she seems like she should be a really fun caster, but whenever I play her so far I just run into situations where she doesn't have the tools to do what I need to get done in that particular turn.

[jandrese]

I agree with you about the Idrians not needing Stealth. They're already pretty strong against direct fire shooting/magic. I much prefer stealth on stuff that has low DEF and gets shot up easily.

Thyra looks aggressive, and her DEF 17 is certainly good, but if something can boost it can kill her. You have to play conservative. She's not Caine, she can't go in there and do stuff and then teleport out afterwards. Her board control spells are just too expensive and dicey for that. I think she's best when she's a Carnage engine with the threat of a late game assassination, not as a supersolo. Carnage is so expensive that you really can't do much else if you use it. The Hierophant and Wracks help a ton though, I don't think I would make a 35 point or higher Thyra list without both. She's just too focus starved.

Silence of Death has been the big surprise for me with her. I thought it would be really situational, but I find a use for it in just about every game. People love tough, and every Warbeast hates it.

[Errant_knight]

If you want to try assasinations you are missing a couple key pieces. Madelyn get you a couple more inches, and saxton gives her pathfinder to get through any walls or terrain.

[regleant]

I've had exceptional luck using Thyra as an assassination caster, gearing up a list with the explicit purpose of handing the enemy caster on the silver platter for Thyra's weaponmaster attacks to take him out. My attempts at pure Attrition have failed.

Blending the two (as Jandrese alludes to, above) could work. Looking at your list, I would drop the Idrian's as well. Saxon is better than Piper in this case because Saxon can give Thyra or Daughters Pathfinder, where as the Piper cannot grant to Thyra. Both Wracks and Heirophant are amazing to help conserve focus. Madelyn is great for an extra 3". Anastasia is difficult to pull off, but amazing when it works. And yes, I do like Nicia as well.

Also note that Thyra's assassination becomes much more difficult beyond ARM 18. My tactic has been to throw the Daughters at the enemy caster early for some CMA damage, softening up the target. Your opponent must deal with the Daughters at that point, which hopefully gives Thyra a chance to get in there on the following turn.

Other random tactics I've used:

- Thyra fits nicely right behind the Covenant to block LOS to her.
- Run everything first turn, except Thyra.
- Blood of Martyrs can't keep up with Daughters. Keep it with the KE or other slower unit. I'm currently running a Templar instead, though would like to switch to a Reckoner.
- Gorman is your friend. He works even better with Madelyn.
- Against troop-heavy lists, cast Carnage and use those Daughters to wipe out the entire front line. MAT 8 Auto-damage gives you a nice lead, even if it sets you back a turn for assassination.
- Against beast / jack-heavy armies, Gorman + Pursuit + Stranglehold means you won't be touched. I did this once during Saeryn's feat turn. Quite hilarious.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I agree with you about the Idrians not needing Stealth. They're already pretty strong against direct fire shooting/magic. I much prefer stealth on stuff that has low DEF and gets shot up easily.

Thyra looks aggressive, and her DEF 17 is certainly good, but if something can boost it can kill her. You have to play conservative. She's not Caine, she can't go in there and do stuff and then teleport out afterwards. Her board control spells are just too expensive and dicey for that. I think she's best when she's a Carnage engine with the threat of a late game assassination, not as a supersolo. Carnage is so expensive that you really can't do much else if you use it. The Hierophant and Wracks help a ton though, I don't think I would make a 35 point or higher Thyra list without both. She's just too focus starved.

Silence of Death has been the big surprise for me with her. I thought it would be really situational, but I find a use for it in just about every game. People love tough, and every Warbeast hates it.

More or less this. You're missing some key components that make her tick (namely, wracks and the hierophant). And Idrians are definitely a unit that needs to be made to work, so it definitely wouldn't hurt to switch them out for errants if learning Thyra is your goal.

Also, your list has a glaring lack of choir. Here's what I would do: Drop the Idrians for Errants+ua, some wracks and a choir. Drop the Knight Exemplar and Eiryss for a Reckoner. I think that'd work out a lot better for you, and would play to Thyras strengths more.

Thyra is a deceptively strong caster. She's easily my favorite protectorate warcaster, but she isn't easy. Keep at it!

[Spartan31337]

Thanks for the replies everybody! couple thoughts:

Also, your list has a glaring lack of choir. Here's what I would do: Drop the Idrians for Errants+ua, some wracks and a choir

with just the blood of martyrs who gets the buff from the infantry, the choir didn't seem necessary. granted, they would boost him to mat 10 pow 20's (mat 12 under carnage!), plus their usual other benefits, so i can see where they would be useful, but with just the one jack where the choir would be more like icing on the cake wouldn't the 2 points be better spent on another support solo (madely, saxon, etc)?

Drop the Knight Exemplar and Eiryss for a Reckoner

i've considered a reckoner with her, but as above definitely would need the choir at that point. also, loosing eyriss means i lose any ability to remove upkeeps and would make any opportunity to make an assassination run vs a warmachine caster rather hard, plus disruption on an opponent's heavy jack could effectively lock it down for a turn depending (especially if it's melee only)? would i lose too much from the list by taking out the KE and eyriss? the KE are pretty good at dying to give the BoM his buff i've learned...

Her board control spells are just too expensive and dicey for that. I think she's best when she's a Carnage engine with the threat of a late game assassination, not as a supersolo. Carnage is so expensive that you really can't do much else if you use it. The Hierophant and Wracks help a ton though, I don't think I would make a 35 point or higher Thyra list without both. She's just too focus starved

i've found the same to be true. i think that i'll have to add them both in somehow. and i am going to replace the idrians with the KEE + UA. i know how to use the KEE, and learning both thyra and the idrians at the same time is a bit much at this point (especially when the idrians are taking up the majority of my list points).

thanks for the assistance everyone!

[moob]

I think part of it is that i'm used to playing harbinger, efeora, psevvy, who have completely different play styles.

Those casters are also just flat out better than Thyra.

I like a Reckoner with Thyra (even if it's the only jack with no BoM) for several reasons: the ashen veil can help keep her safe(r) against living models when she's around it.. but the big one is assaulting a warlock after a daughter hits it. I've won a couple times with her by having a pair of daughters make it to the enemy warlock with silence of death up and pinging it for a couple of points with a CMA. After which, the Reckoner assaults the warlock and kills it with boosted damage (since the no-transfer lasts the entire round) - and no in-melee defense bonus vs assault.

Need that choir, though.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Thanks for the replies everybody! couple thoughts:



with just the blood of martyrs who gets the buff from the infantry, the choir didn't seem necessary. granted, they would boost him to mat 10 pow 20's (mat 12 under carnage!), plus their usual other benefits, so i can see where they would be useful, but with just the one jack where the choir would be more like icing on the cake wouldn't the 2 points be better spent on another support solo (madely, saxon, etc)?

The choir takes the Blood of Martyrs from "ok, he hits pretty hard" to one of the most sure assassinations in the game. I would take the choir even if you were only taking the one jack, but that's just me.

i've considered a reckoner with her, but as above definitely would need the choir at that point. also, loosing eyriss means i lose any ability to remove upkeeps and would make any opportunity to make an assassination run vs a warmachine caster rather hard, plus disruption on an opponent's heavy jack could effectively lock it down for a turn depending (especially if it's melee only)? would i lose too much from the list by taking out the KE and eyriss? the KE are pretty good at dying to give the BoM his buff i've learned...

Eiryss is a strong piece, for sure. But in my experience, in my meta, she's not that important with Thyra. Sure, without her it closes thyra's personal assassination avenue agains some casters, but most people playing those camp reliant casters will take a shield guard to soak up any potential eiryss shots. And you've still got (potentially) two heavy jacks that should be able to crack most armor.

I like to play Thyra in a fashion that puts multiple assassination vectors against my opponent every turn. My 50 point list has BoM, a Reckoner, and Gravus chilling about, constantly looking for assassination runs. And with spells like Carnage and Silence of Death, as well as her feat, they can catch your opponent unawares. The personal thyra assassination is the last one I look for on any given turn, because if you mess it up it's immediately game over.


Anyway, that's the way I've been successful with, but I've seen her played so many different ways with lots of success. For example, I don't play her with daughters. I prefer errants. But lots of people play daughters and more daughters with her and they absolutely love it. Find a way to play her that works for you, and go for it.

[Pixl]

Maddy is a must for assasitations with thyra imo. Rupert not as much but still good as usual.
I would recomend atleast one more jack, even if it is a light one just to get some more stuff to handle
heavy stuff on the way or screen stuff.
1 vassal and a min choire is never wrong so you can use jacks to bait with.
Keep the book what ever you do, as a wel timed knowdown can ruin everything.

I just orderd anastasia di bray and will try and make use of her to get even more movment out of it.

[Craaag]

I've never really cared for Thyra since she was released as I'm not a big daughters player. I just bought her though right now. The thought of Errants with stealth got me all giddy with excitement, particularly since I play against so much ranged in my meta. Errants with stealth and can't be targeted by magic attacks, that's just too much!

Do most people run daughters with her? I know she gives them Vengeance but I'd imagine she's still decent without them? Kind of like Feora1 without TFG. I don't think I've ever used them with her and she hasn't missed a beat without them.

[regleant]

I love Vengeance. Don't underestimate an extra 3" of movement when lining up a charge on the enemy caster.

The main reason why I have not run the Blood of Martyrs with her in my lists is that he only gets the bonuses if a friendly faction model is within 5". With only 2 friendly faction units, such as Daughters, they tend to be far out of reach for the jack to keep up, so I would rarely, if ever, get that +2/+2.

[FranzGrenstein]

Try pressgangers and the RO they are pretty good.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Do most people run daughters with her? I know she gives them Vengeance but I'd imagine she's still decent without them? Kind of like Feora1 without TFG. I don't think I've ever used them with her and she hasn't missed a beat without them.

I mentioned it above, but yeah, I don't run daughters with her. Vengence on a 6 man unit isn't as good, honestly. They're just fine with her, but I prefer spending my points on other stuff. I started off running two daughters with her, and just slowly trimmed down during playtesting.

[jandrese]

More specifically, Vengance on a 6 man unit without Reach is underwhelming. I do like being able to pass out Grievous Wounds without having to upkeep it sometimes though. MAT 6 makes it far from a sure thing though.

[paradox]

Do most people run daughters with her?

All the time. x2. x3 in tier.

I do silly-wrong things to people with vengeance daughters. The 3" extra move sets up so many charges.

[Wulfy]

My thoughts, drop the Iridians, take a reckoner, min choir, revenger. Then brick up on approach and sing passage on the approach and hide everything behind the three jacks. If they have nothing to shoot at, they cannot deviate onto your troops. This is the basic brick and is a great defense against shooty armies. Use the Revenger for pursuit and stranglehold. Stranglehold is awesome. Do not go for the heavy armor stuff, go for the other heavies or anything to force him to charge with half the elements he wants.

Or not the Revenger and take some more solos, consider a combination of, Madalyn, Orrik, Nicea, Herophant, Wrack.

As others have mentioned consider Saxon Orrik instead of Rupert. Orrik can give pathfinder to Thyra!

If facing stuff with stealth take a Vanquisher and a vassal.

Thyra standing next to Reckoner gets plus 2 def!

When you see gun mages, the game has to change. Kill the gun mages, then worry about winning. When I see Eiryss or gunmages I pull all stops to take them out first. I usually turn to my Vanquisher. But if I was you I would move a vanquisher and run the KEs and Sisters at them, either one hits them them, gun mages are gone. That is a good trade.

[moob]

Eiryss is a strong piece, for sure. But in my experience, in my meta, she's not that important with Thyra. Sure, without her it closes thyra's personal assassination avenue agains some casters, but most people playing those camp reliant casters will take a shield guard to soak up any potential eiryss shots. And you've still got (potentially) two heavy jacks that should be able to crack most armor.

Eiryss is more than just shooting off the enemy camp. Upkeep / Animi removal can be just as big.. Also, shield guard = broken at the moment, and simply turning your model completely negates the ability in most situations.