Am I a theorymachine cheater or just Neurotic?

[anewbre]

I've been stuck unable to play a game so I started to theory machine a Scaverous Tier 4 (add 2" to my deployment) game vs. a retribution list (35pts)my friend runs. It's a standard deployment SR 2012 scenario. He has Rahn, 2 Phoenix, Battle Mages, max Sentinnels, Arcanist and Assassin, etc. I have Scaverous, Reaper, WSC, WWS, Erebus, Skarlock, Wraith Engine, Nightwretch, Iron Lich Overlord. He goes first and runs everyone forward. I assign 3 focus to the Reaper, 1 to the Nightwretch. Skarlock Tk's the reaper. Nightwretch runs forward, Scaverous Tk's a Phoenix (boosts to hit) and moves it 2" forward. I walk the Reaper forward and harpoon the Phoenix. If everyone moved correctly my tape measure should be tickling the front edge of the Phoenix at EXACTLY 8" away. Do I get the shot or not? If the tape measure touches the base of the Phoenix ( or overlaps it by a 1/4") that means someone has moved too far. Did I cheat? Did my opponent cheat? Am I just Neurotic?

Has this were happened to you in a tournament?

If you were a TO how would you rule it?
If I get it then I wreck the Phoenix, dark industries it into a Seether, WWS power boosts it, it charges the other Phoenix, chain attacks hit and I double handed throw the Phoenix into Rahn (which hits - of course because this is theory machine) I boost damage on Rahn rolling 3 6's.
If he gets it, the Phoenix and battle mages wreck the reaper on his feat turn.

[Gamingdevil]

Measurements will never be exact, especially concerning movement when not only do you have to measure, but the placement of the model should also be exact. Not to mention your opponent might have deliberately stopped short a few millimeter. When measuring ranges like that, just go with the models as they are and measure as precise as possible (try to put the measuring tape on the table and align it as perfectly as possible to the front of your base). Even if you just touch the base, that is "within" and you can take the shot, otherwise you can't.

I'd only use mathematical reasoning if there was actually a reference, say a Reach model B2B with a heavy jack wrecks it and can now attack the model that was B2B behind it. Don't count on movement being exact.

[anewbre]

I understand that measurements are never exact but I hate players who wave their tape measures 8" above the table and move their models much too much and I don't want to be that player. Nonetheless, I can place my tape measure on the table, mark the spot with my thumb nail and then move my model and still gain 1/16th of an inch - which is nothing - but with setup, 2 tk's, and a move with just a 1/16th of an inch each adds up to 1/4 and the money shot. Obviously, I am neurotic but I don't want to be accused of being a cheating neurotic.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

You're being neurotic. Nobody measures with absolute precision, and its not possible to retrace steps once the models have moved and the turn has shifted.

Not to mention your buddy has but to move 1/4" less than a full run to wreck your carefully thought out plan. And heaven forbid scenery should have to be navigated.

Scripting the first series of plays may work in football, but IMO you're better off having a general gameplan than a script.

[usbprime]

Personally i hate the Thumb placement way of movement. I've seen many people move their thumb by accident while picking up their model and they don't know exactly where their thumb or where their model was, and with this game being a game of millimeters at times, that can make the difference. I do the "wave your tape above your models" way of measuring, but i hold my hand with the tape on the table somewhere behind my model so that my tape doesn't move until i've placed my model in the correct place. Also, your example there, is assuming that both models(reaper and phoenix) are deployed exactly on the deployment line perfectly across from each other, and when the phoenix runs it's moves full range in a perfectly straight line towards the reaper. 1/2" either way and your vectors don't work anymore. Theorymachining is great and all, but the tabletop hardly ever follows the theory.

Also, note that when i'm shooting something critically like that, i use the spray template to measure model to model, or lay the reach marker in front of one of the models, and measure my base to the edge of that, as sometime you can get a more accurate reading that way, and as far as i know, that's not breaking the rules in any way. If it's within 1/16" i'll call a third party over to rule in/out of range.

[under]

You're being neurotic. Nobody measures with absolute precision, and its not possible to retrace steps once the models have moved and the turn has shifted.

Not to mention your buddy has but to move 1/4" less than a full run to wreck your carefully thought out plan. And heaven forbid scenery should have to be navigated.

Jumping off your second point, this has been a issue for me in the past. Not the specific combo the OP is listing but the same idea. In the tournement, because I knew what was up I had placed 1/4" back so when my oppenent reached melee I told him that was impossible and ultimatley had the judge rule in my favour because we ran the math.

Going back to your first point, I agree but only from round two onward. Round one makes it possible to be that preciese because deployment enforces distance specific distances and board edges allows for a absolute frame of reference.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

In the tournement, because I knew what was up I had placed 1/4" back so when my oppenent reached melee I told him that was impossible and ultimatley had the judge rule in my favour because we ran the math.

That conversation must've been a joy for both the players and the judge

Its an old Warhammer trick, and one of the reasons I never use (or used)dice to mark my deployment zone. And of course, you can always use it during movement as well when you measure the full length, but move slightly under it. Incidentally, tt doesn't work so much in WFB anymore. . .

I'll give you that you can script your first move to some degree. You should at least have a strong idea of how your units will advance and where support needs to be. But scenery and your opponent's deployment can throw everything off.

[under]

That conversation must've been a joy for both the players and the judge

Its an old Warhammer trick, and one of the reasons I never use (or used)dice to mark my deployment zone. And of course, you can always use it during movement as well when you measure the full length, but move slightly under it. Incidentally, tt doesn't work so much in WFB anymore. . .

I'll give you that you can script your first move to some degree. You should at least have a strong idea of how your units will advance and where support needs to be. But scenery and your opponent's deployment can throw everything off.

The Judge had that "look" they tend to get when people quible over milimetres.

[jonconcarne]

I haven't had that problem in a tournament, but I'd say that you have to go by the model placement if it is mathematically possible because you can say you ran 9.75" with your heavy, but placed it at 10", etc. If it's not possible, I'm not sure what I'd do there because you probably can't rewind to a legal game state, etc.

I had a buddy try and get me in a casual game with an Infernal Machined Reaper a long time ago, but it was mathematically impossible for him to get me, even if I'd run forward another full inch. Yet his tape measure was over my base by a good 1/2" or more. Turns out, he deployed 2" more with his whole army than he should have

[lichkitten]

or the table is a fraction to thin, nearly all the tables at my FLGS are 5 foot, 11 inch by 3 foot 11 inches. (no one knows how not even the owner), we tend to forget this and it really hits home when some ones caster/lock is half an inch coser than you thought

[usbprime]

or the table is a fraction to thin, nearly all the tables at my FLGS are 5 foot, 11 inch by 3 foot 11 inches. (no one knows how not even the owner), we tend to forget this and it really hits home when some ones caster/lock is half an inch coser than you thought

Depending on where material is bought, some material is less that 48" across. Most Sheets of MDF are 97" x 49", that's why they're my choice for tables, because you can trim 1/2" off either side and cut the length into 2 tables for warmahordes size. Some stuff like 24" wide pink foam, actually has 1/2" that they have to overlap each other, so if the guy making the tables doesn't want to scab in 1/2" strips along 1 side, then the table will be a little narrow.

Then there's the obvious one........the guy making the table is either half blind, or just plain can't read a tape measure......

[juckto]

And of course, you can always use it during movement as well when you measure the full length, but move slightly under it.

Technically, you can't measure past where you're moving.

If you could, nothing would stop you going 'I'm gonna run 14".', hold the tape measure out 14" and sweep it around going 'oooh look at all the different places I could run to. Okay, I'm gonna run 10" to over by this hedge.'

that's why they're my choice for tables, because you can trim 1/2" off either side

Heh. Wouldn't it be simpler to trim 1" off one side?

[usbprime]

Heh. Wouldn't it be simpler to trim 1" off one side?

<=== Purist Cabinetmaker........he likes freshly clean cut edges all around his boards......plus factory edges are hardly ever perfectly straight. i suppose you could just cut 1" off the side and be done.......but where's the fun in that