eVayl t4 as counter to Harbinger of Menoth (35pt)

[crazyivan111]

Lately I have been playing against a friend's brutal Menoth list (below) and having a hell of a time doing anything, let alone winning. So, I'm here for advice on a way to deal with this problem.

His usual army is as follows:

Harbinger T4 35pt
Castigator
Crusader
Templar
Avatar
4x Choir
3x Paladin of the Wall
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon

My biggest problems against this list are avoiding the charge and doing anything to him until that point. With Crusader's Call and some Reach, he has something like a 11"-13" threat range on the charge, which is at or above the threat ranges of my heavies. That gives me 2 options - either run to within 3 inches, preventing the charge and allowing him to get the first set of hits (leaving me with a severely crippled or dead heavy) or hit him from range and make him come to me. I usually opt for the second choice, hence problem #2. The positioning game is further complicated by the harbinger's feat, which punishes me with a POW 14 fire hit for approaching any closer than 20"

His army has almost no range in it, so a rage heavy opposition should be effective right? Well in practice, my heavy range armies don't get to do much because of the damn choir (making his screening wall of jacks immune to spell targeting or non-magical ranged targeting). Also of note, his paladins have total immunity to non-magical attacks on the approach thanks to his high paladin. The obvious solution is to kill the choir, as no singing = no protection. That is easier said than done.

I can't shoot the choir from the front because he screens them with his heavy jacks, who i can't target w/ sprays or AOEs. That requires me to move up the flank to shoot, leaving whatever unit incredibly exposed and probably dead the next turn. At this point I'd be HAPPY to sacrifice something to kill the choir if it let me actually hurt his army, but that is never what actually happens. If by some miracle i can get my units in range and actually kill off choir members, he will just use Martyrdom to save them. Since he has a GIGANTIC ctrl area (20" radius), his caster is far enough back to be reasonably safe from assassination runs, so the damage from martyrdom is largely irrelevant.

I can't fight him toe to toe because his 'jacks have equivalent or better stats for less points and any defensive buffs/animi I use are simply negated by his purification. I can't fight him w/ guerrilla hit and run tactics because he is either immune or the hits do too little damage to make it even remotely worthwhile, as he'll just charge offending models to death.

My possible solution lies in this army:

eVayl Tier 4 -6
2x Angelius 16 (after tier bonus)
Seraph 7 (ditto)
Naga 'lurker 5 (friends are ok w/ me proxying until model comes out)

6x Legionnaires 4
Sorc + Hellion 4
2x Shepard 2
7x spawning vessel 3


First off, the naga's animus lets me give the beasties magical weapons, so they can target the paladins and jacks and actually deal some damage to them. That is 95% of it's purpose.

The angelii serve as anti armor heavies, with the added tactical benefit of sprays and repulsion.
The seraph will primarily be there to eliminate choir without being overly exposed, since secondary hits from strafe ignore intervening models it can hit one jack and then kill the singer behind it. Additionally, slipstream will aid in expanding threat ranges and getting in/out unscathed.

Hellion is primarily for the free angelius charges, but is also nice to have for blight field to aid legionnaires and the magical spray (also can target those pesky jacks and pallies)

legionnaires are a small tarpit and food for the vessel.

Vessel is a tier requirement, and will act as a screen/road block in the event that heavy jacks get to my caster, since I wont really have much of a front line.

eVayl will give me some nicer hit and run options with admonintion(IF if get to keep it on w/ harby's purification), refuge, and the animi of slipstream and repulsion. With oraculus arc-node options, and solid spells, she should also be able to do some decent spell damage if things aren't immune.


So, will this list work like I think it will against this matchup? Is there anything you guys think I could change? What other suggestions do you have tactically versus this terrible opposition?

[Tommmmm]

Angels don't have a spray. You still have some guns though so (not including Harby's feat) you should be dictating the flow of the game with her movement spells and range. It's an alright list to start with but consider swapping the Legionnaire's and Sorc out for max Hex Hunters or a Ravagore. The Ravagore will terrify Harby and allow further control whilst the the Hex Hunters will provide magical support that can also chip away at the jacks.

[PG_BloodRath]

thats allot of upkeep hate both ways. as much as i love me some vayl2 i think that she relies on upkeeps way more than harbinger. For that match up my go to casters have always been saeryn + angels or vayl1 beast heavy. your heavies can weather a smack from her feat. saeryn can protect her self/army from the harsh weapon masters menoth likes to spam. angels can repulse paladins out of zones. harbinger loves paladins

that rant aside i think the list has potential against a wide verity of threats. i dont think the sereph is nessary, she has plenty of movement shananagins. but if you are trying to stay in tier i would say give it a try. Just be ready to recast your upkeeps every turn, and to use your feat to do the same. Its a rough focus/ fury exchange you louse when playing against harbinger but i think its nessicary to force that exchange. you need to bring harbingers focus into managable levels. if she is purifying every turn then she isent doing somehting agressive with that focus or camping it. if she does not purify becuas she wants to use it to fule a jack or a spell make her pay for it. any turn you can put the crazy focus/fury exchange these two casters have in your advnatage put pressure on him that turn! Hit Him HARD! make him pay for not purifying or put an angel in his grill.

I hope that helps. i played allot of harbinger back in the day but i have also been on the other end of that baby seal clubbing a few times.... now i have to agree with Obei " every time a Menite burns a angelius gets its wings."

[crazyivan111]

Thanks for the insight. I'm still pretty new to the game, and not familiar enough w/ all of the faction's units to know that ABC is the legion counter to XYZ

Angels don't have a spray.

Righto, sorry about that. Didn't have the card in front of me, and misremembered/assumed a breath weapon named 'flame jet' was a spray.

It's an alright list to start with but consider swapping the Legionnaire's and Sorc out for max Hex Hunters or a Ravagore. The Ravagore will terrify Harby and allow further control whilst the the Hex Hunters will provide magical support that can also chip away at the jacks.

Ravagore is an interesting idea, I might have to look into that. I keep forgetting the range on his shots can still let him shoot deep into the backfield, and harby can't be screened by anything but a heavy jack.

I have a unit of the hexhunters, but overall i'm not completely convinced about them, at least against menoth. The super short range on their spells seems a bit debilitating. Is the 3" extra threat w/ magic (2d6+13)worth the 10" charge's 4d6+10? Sometimes. Unfortunately, they arent getting to do both via Battle Wizard very often (since the enemy is highly armored).

However, i do like that both of these options dont require me to purchase new or proxy as much.

So then, the 2 options are

(A)
eVayl Tier 4 -6
2x Angelius 16
Seraph 7
Naga 'lurker 5
10 Hex Hunters 8
2x Shepard 2
7x spawning vessel 3

More food for the pot, bigger speedbump (more targets), no additional range/control, variety of attacks, weaponmaster gives multiple 4d6 charges

(B)
eVayl Tier 4 -6
2x Angelius 16
Seraph 7
Naga 'lurker 5
Ravagore 9
2x Shepard 2
5x spawning vessel 2

Costs 2 grunts on SV, and not as much fuel, gives more ranged threat, a heavier back field deterrent, more fury to use/worry about, an extra animus (particularly useful w/ variety of ranged beasties)


After typing it out, i'm leaning towards A, any thoughts?

[crazyivan111]

@BloodRath

thats allot of upkeep hate both ways. as much as i love me some vayl2 i think that she relies on upkeeps way more than harbinger. ... Just be ready to recast your upkeeps every turn, and to use your feat to do the same. Its a rough focus/ fury exchange you louse when playing against harbinger but i think its nessicary to force that exchange. you need to bring harbingers focus into managable levels. if she is purifying every turn then she isent doing somehting agressive with that focus or camping it. if she does not purify becuas she wants to use it to fule a jack or a spell make her pay for it. any turn you can put the crazy focus/fury exchange these two casters have in your advnatage put pressure on him that turn! Hit Him HARD! make him pay for not purifying or put an angel in his grill.

Indeed it is a lot of upkeep hate. I ended up playing an abby list against this (despite my better judgement) and was absolutely demolished (unsurprisingly). As for my side, I most likely won't end up using purification for much more than clearing the random continuous fire effect. The thing i like about this list is that most of the upkeeps are offensive, so I will get good use out of them before they are cleansed. So even if i end up paying more for the spells than he does to cleanse them, I still get a major benefit out of them. Also, i like your point about forcing that exchange. Make him make a choice, and punish him either way.

that rant aside i think the list has potential against a wide verity of threats. i dont think the sereph is nessary, she has plenty of movement shananagins. but if you are trying to stay in tier i would say give it a try.

I wasnt too sure about the seraph, but it does meet tier, and give the extra movement shenanigans in addition to the ability to hit targets that are directly screened. Its a toss up, and I figured I'd give it a shot.

I hope that helps. i played allot of harbinger back in the day but i have also been on the other end of that baby seal clubbing a few times....

Thanks for the advice, I'll report back with how it turns out. I'll probably make one of the modifications suggested by Tommmmm as well.

now i have to agree with Obei " every time a Menite burns a angelius gets its wings."

Amen to that!

[kalkyrie]

Amusingly, Warmongers seem a good counter to that list.
Not for actually *fighting* it, but for providing medium bases to tarpit the jacks with.

More seriously, Saeryn is the easy counter to that list (since it is almost completely melee). A more general counter strategy is using infantry to tarpit the jacks (with cheap models- infantry), then running multiple threats around the jack wall to threaten the caster.
Ideally ones that can survive walking into Harby's feat, of course!

[crazyivan111]

Amusingly, Warmongers seem a good counter to that list.
Not for actually *fighting* it, but for providing medium bases to tarpit the jacks with.

Well, I don't have any of those yet, and they aren't on her tier list either, so I'd be hesitant to do that. Theorycraftingwise though, what advantage do the medium bases have over small ones in this case? I'd think that more targets would be better than larger ones, since he tends to kill whatever he engages.

More seriously, Saeryn is the easy counter to that list (since it is almost completely melee).

How's that? I get the feat turn immunity, but other than that she has almost entirely upkeeps (that harby will cleanse). Are you just going for an all in, assasination roulette attempt on feat turn?

I looked at Saern, but because i didn't have her and the aforementioned upkeep hate, I didnt look too closely. What am I missing?

A more general counter strategy is using infantry to tarpit the jacks (with cheap models- infantry), then running multiple threats around the jack wall to threaten the caster.
Ideally ones that can survive walking into Harby's feat, of course!

Well, with the revised list (A), that would most likely be the case. Hexhunters + pot (and resultant lessers) in blocking formation while 2x angels and seraph threaten the caster, killing threats, or holding objectives. It just drives me nuts that menoth jacks are cheaper, hit as hard or harder, have higher or equivalent health, have higher armor(since upkeeps/animi are cleared), and can charge as far/farther(w/harby) compared to legion heavies.

I guess that until now, i had never really seen the advantage of infantry, given that I could get another heavy for around the same price. I think I'm starting to come around

Thanks for the insights.

[Gython]

do you HAVE to use eVayl? Wouldn't an Elilyth list with a proxied naga, 1 carni, 2 Ravagore's and a bolt thrower be a better ranged option?

[crazyivan111]

No I don't HAVE to, but I would like to since I just got her in a bulk order. (Yay for people abandoning legion and selling out cheap )

Yes, eLyl would be better in terms of a straight ranged army, but I liked eVayl's ability to get heavy hitters in and back out, while also hitting somewhat hard from range. eLyl's feat is nice, but will only partially benefit my vs that army, given that I can't pass around the magic wep animus fast enough for everyone to be able to target.

Also, having the angelli for scenario purposes is really nice, as are the added benefits from Vayl's tier list (+2 spd for fliers, advance move on sheps, +1 to starting roll)

[Cannotcope]

If by some miracle i can get my units in range and actually kill off choir members, he will just use Martyrdom to save them. Since he has a GIGANTIC ctrl area (20" radius), his caster is far enough back to be reasonably safe from assassination runs, so the damage from martyrdom is largely irrelevant.

You might want to consider Striders, Raptors and perhaps Anyssa/Deathstalkers. These options can easily get around to the sides to shoot choir boys and are fairly hard for his army to kill (no ranged, one AOE spell, and his feat turn). Martyrdon is CMD range not CTRL, so make sure that's getting played correctly and putting Harby in a bad spot, if you can. Kills his choirboys enough times and he'll either kill Harby martyring or give up on protecting them. Switching Vayl2 for either Lylyth to have a magic bow for shooting the Paladins for extra Martyrdom damage could be good. The Naga is also a good idea.

Make sure to use terrain to your advantage. His army has nothing with pathfinder and will have issues with any sort of rough terrain.

Do you need to play Vayl2 and/or Tier 4?

[crazyivan111]

You might want to consider Striders, Raptors and perhaps Anyssa/Deathstalkers. These options can easily get around to the sides to shoot choir boys and are fairly hard for his army to kill (no ranged, one AOE spell, and his feat turn).

I've considered those options, but he generally prevents that from happening - ie feating on the turn i should be passing the flanks, so that i either sit still and get charged/trampled to death or retreat. Another problem is the snapfire etc abilities require the target to actually die, so martyrdom prevents it, and they end up more vulnerable position while having accomplished little. The whole martyrdom thing screws with the balance of cost vs benefit. If I have to spend 2 turns advancing and one sitting due to feat, its doubtful that I the benefit of choir will be as relevant. Sure the battle hymn is awesome, but the biggest problem I've been having is the immunity for the turns advancing up board.

(no ranged, one AOE spell, and his feat turn).

True, but that AOE spell is pretty brutal, but I may be more afraid of it than I should be - still shell shocked from a previous bad experience.

Martyrdon is CMD range not CTRL, so make sure that's getting played correctly and putting Harby in a bad spot, if you can. Kills his choirboys enough times and he'll either kill Harby martyring or give up on protecting them.

That's good to know. I don't think the distinction has mattered in the situations where martyrdom has been used, but it is good to know that. I'll keep that in mind.

Switching Vayl2 for either Lylyth to have a magic bow for shooting the Paladins for extra Martyrdom damage could be good. {...} Do you need to play Vayl2 and/or Tier 4?

I'm kinda tired of lylyth atm, since i got her in the BB and that was all i played for a while. As for the Vayl2 question, I don't HAVE to play her, but i would like to make her work. For the Tier 4, not necessarily. The spd/advanced deploy, + to start roll, and -1 to all heavy costs is a lot of benefit to give up. It would have to be a very convincing argument to the contrary.

Make sure to use terrain to your advantage. His army has nothing with pathfinder and will have issues with any sort of rough terrain.

I do when I can, but its not always in the location I need it to be tactically.


Thanks for the advice, if I can't manage to make this work I may have to switch back to a lylyth option for this matchup.

[Gython]

...give that I can't pass around the magic wep animus fast enough for everyone to be able to target...

Proxied Succubus = 1
Proxied Naga = 2
Elilith casting it = 3 on 2 ravagore's & 1 carni isn't enough?

[crazyivan111]

Proxied Succubus = 1
Proxied Naga = 2
Elilith casting it = 3 on 2 ravagore's & 1 carni isn't enough?

I'd forgotten about the succubus option there, thanks for the reminder. Still, that only covers 3 of the 4 shooters, and takes a lot of resources to make that happen. This is particularly problematic given that this list w/ succy can only support a single shepard for fury control.

It might work, but it isn't appealing to me, particularly since I would end up proxying most of the army.

[Cannotcope]

<sniped quote of me suggesting Striders, etc...>
I've considered those options, but he generally prevents that from happening - ie feating on the turn i should be passing the flanks, so that i either sit still and get charged/trampled to death or retreat. Another problem is the snapfire etc abilities require the target to actually die, so martyrdom prevents it, and they end up more vulnerable position while having accomplished little. The whole martyrdom thing screws with the balance of cost vs benefit. If I have to spend 2 turns advancing and one sitting due to feat, its doubtful that I the benefit of choir will be as relevant. Sure the battle hymn is awesome, but the biggest problem I've been having is the immunity for the turns advancing up board.

I think Battle is still a pretty big part of his smack down. Without it, he faces the chance of outright missing with his attacks and does less damage, which means more Focus required from Harby to make the Jacks perform up to snuff.

Also, Striders advance deploy and can run 14" You can get 6" deep in his half of the table by the end of your first turn. So you should really only have one turn of advancing and one turn possibly wasted by feat. Note, depending on how you move your models and how you place them, you can be in shooting range of the Choir after one advance, at which point you may not care if he feats, as you can then forfeit movement to ignore the feat, aim and shoot his choir. Yes, Terrain and his Jack/Choir placements can affect this. Epic Lylyth's feat granted Snipe can further help the Striders with this.

Yes, Martyrdom can stop snapfire/swift hunter and such if used. I like to think that the d3 damage to the Harby is worth that. I also don't see why being charged/trampled would be a big issue. Striders have a very large coherency and shouldn't be slaughtered wholesale by the jacks you mention he takes. Even if you do lose the whole unit, it may take all/most of his jacks to do that and leave the Harby open to being shot by your remaining beasts.

It's not a magic cure, but I think they would help.

Regarding Vayl2's Tier 4 benefits: Based on the issues you seem to be having with your opponent, I'm not sure you're gaining anything from those benefits (other than cheaper heavy beasts). It may be worthwhile to break tier if it helps you deal with the issues you're having.

One thought I haven't seen (maybe I missed it) is to grab a Nephilim Bolt Thrower and with the Naga's animus, pop a hole in her jack line, then shoot the Harby herself.

[Tommmmm]

There's been some good advice so far. Saeryn really is worth looking into, but enjoy eVayl for now. As Bloodrath said make use Purification to keep his Focus demand high, dictate the flow of the game and position for the feat. Generally all you'll need to do is soften a jack up and then have Refuge on an Angel. If the Angel kills it that's a bonus, if not Refuge over the top of the wall and Animus them apart. This should give you all the LoS you need to open up on Harby.

To get good general use out of Hex Hunters requires a bit of patience. Because they have Battle Wizard it means they can always tip the attrition back in your favour by 2-1ing. Sometimes it just requires that you commit first and let them kill a few - with thier movement being better than most comparible infantry you can afford to run them in waves of 3-4. Against a jack wall just using the Hex Bolt to stop Special attacks and then jamming them in place is good enough for me. Your Angels can then always Refuge back behind the infantry. Good luck and let us know how it went.

[crazyivan111]

I think Battle is still a pretty big part of his smack down. Without it, he faces the chance of outright missing with his attacks and does less damage, which means more Focus required from Harby to make the Jacks perform up to snuff.

I guess you're right. I've been neglecting the focus depletion effects of it because harby has so much damn focus, but if I combine this w/ other effects, I can nickel and dime my way to victory, so to speak.

Also, Striders advance deploy and can run 14" You can get 6" deep in his half of the table by the end of your first turn. So you should really only have one turn of advancing and one turn possibly wasted by feat. Note, depending on how you move your models and how you place them, you can be in shooting range of the Choir after one advance, at which point you may not care if he feats, as you can then forfeit movement to ignore the feat, aim and shoot his choir. Yes, Terrain and his Jack/Choir placements can affect this. Epic Lylyth's feat granted Snipe can further help the Striders with this.

Yes, Martyrdom can stop snapfire/swift hunter and such if used. I like to think that the d3 damage to the Harby is worth that. I also don't see why being charged/trampled would be a big issue. Striders have a very large coherency and shouldn't be slaughtered wholesale by the jacks you mention he takes. Even if you do lose the whole unit, it may take all/most of his jacks to do that and leave the Harby open to being shot by your remaining beasts.

It's not a magic cure, but I think they would help.

I didn't realize how quickly those little buggers moved, this might be worth considering. How would Deathstalkers fare in this role? I only ask because I actually own a pair of those, and I would prefer to proxy as little as possible.

Regarding Vayl2's Tier 4 benefits: Based on the issues you seem to be having with your opponent, I'm not sure you're gaining anything from those benefits (other than cheaper heavy beasts). It may be worthwhile to break tier if it helps you deal with the issues you're having.

Well, the only really nice thing about the tier benefits ( besides the cost red) is dictating the initial start of the battle. Since he has the tier bonus, he gets an extra point on the starting roll, and when he wins (not statistically likely, but he as won all of the rolls recently) he sets up with his immunities stacked against my strengths. i.e. has his paladins lined up against my ranged, and avatar against my mages. This will be less of an issue now that I'm bringing a naga, so that may be worth considering.

One thought I haven't seen (maybe I missed it) is to grab a Nephilim Bolt Thrower and with the Naga's animus, pop a hole in her jack line, then shoot the Harby herself.

[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't own a NBT, and he usually doesnt screen harby w/ units. Most of the time he parks her behind some terrain and moves her out as needed. That just means I need to punish him more for leaving his caster largely unprotected. Once hes gotten more careful though, this could be pure gold (both the comedic and tactical varieties).

[crazyivan111]

There's been some good advice so far.

I agree! Thanks all. Its great to get the benefit of all of your experiences and theorycrafting.

Saeryn really is worth looking into, but enjoy eVayl for now. As Bloodrath said make use Purification to keep his Focus demand high, dictate the flow of the game and position for the feat. Generally all you'll need to do is soften a jack up and then have Refuge on an Angel. If the Angel kills it that's a bonus, if not Refuge over the top of the wall and Animus them apart. This should give you all the LoS you need to open up on Harby.

Sounds like an awesome plan

To get good general use out of Hex Hunters requires a bit of patience. Because they have Battle Wizard it means they can always tip the attrition back in your favour by 2-1ing. Sometimes it just requires that you commit first and let them kill a few - with thier movement being better than most comparible infantry you can afford to run them in waves of 3-4. Against a jack wall just using the Hex Bolt to stop Special attacks and then jamming them in place is good enough for me. Your Angels can then always Refuge back behind the infantry.

Thanks for that. I guess I need to get more into the right mindset for using units. I've only run 1 or 2 games w/ them, and treat them more like a warbeast with multiple weak attacks than I should.

Good luck and let us know how it went.

Thanks! I will. I should be able to play him in the next couple of days. I'll probably first try the list A above, and then I'll try a game trading out 2 deathstalkers and a lesser or a 6x strider unit for the seraph (after tier bonus losses)

I'll report back how it goes.

[Cannotcope]

I didn't realize how quickly those little buggers moved, this might be worth considering. How would Deathstalkers fare in this role? I only ask because I actually own a pair of those, and I would prefer to proxy as little as possible.

Deathstalkers rely on Snap Fire for their output, so Martyrdom screws them over more than it does the Striders.

A note on the standing still and shooting on feat turn: Swift Hunter, Reform, and the Light Cavalry move (if you take Raptors) would all trigger her feat damage, iirc, so be careful with that. You'll mostly use that movement to run away, so it shouldn't be an issue, but just keep it in mind.

[crazyivan111]

So, the new list was pretty successful. Went 2 for 3 over the weekend. Obliteration w/ arc-nodes gives a huge threat range. The seraph ended up being little more than a floating animus, but man that animus can be effective. I had mixed results with the pot, the extra warbeast only was triggered once, due to the game ending early or enemy models that took the corpse token. I see its potential however.

Overall this combo was fairly effective, and more importantly, it was fun. I think the list could use some refinement, but it at least gives me a fighting chance against my menoth friend's list.

Thanks for the input all, it was much appreciated.

[PG_BloodRath]

The important thing is to keep play testing and trying new things. Finding the perfect list for you is more important than making a perfect list. comfort level and knowing your options, are a big key to success