War Wagon usefullness

[Dr. Ewww]

I am curious if there are any thoughts on effectively using the War Wagon? I see tidbits here and there about it, but didn't find a thread that really talked about it's strengths and potential tactics. My thought is that primarily the War Wagon is going to be handy for flanking without need of much support.

[Alex C]

Tactics?

I trample it through enemy formations blowing the crap out of stuff with it's guns.

Seems to work just fine.

Flanking is good, because you're more likely to be able to trample more stuff before blowing the crap out of other stuff with it's guns.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Trample is harder to do than you might imagine, because with that huge base completely clearing all models can be nearly impossible many times.

But as a flanking, solo/high def low arm infantry clearer, it can have some uses. If roll high or your opponent clumps models around low def models, it has some real power, but it does sort of fall into that "fool me once" category.

[Da-Rock]

Does it get the Charge abilities the same as Cav? (ie - ignore smaller base models on charges?)

[Edwars]

Yes because it is a cavalry battle engine, the cavalry rules do apply

[Da-Rock]

so Trample may be hard, but if you charge a target farther back and 4 targets are all in your melee range around your massive base, won't you get 4 attacks with Line Breaker?

[zor]

Warwagon awesomeness:
-Knockdown that Bomber can take advantage of. 5" AoE KD is not bad.
-Grim gives it return fire. Opponent shoots at it...hilarity happens.
-Bomber gives it girded, pMadrak gives it Sure Foot, all of it is under the stone...That is a brick fortress of Trolls

[Dr. Ewww]

Trample is harder to do than you might imagine, because with that huge base completely clearing all models can be nearly impossible many times.
.

Good point. So, for Trample to be reliable and predictable, WW really needs to be accompanied by Jarl or EGrissel to buff speed; b/c distance minus 5" to successfully trample. Noted.

[Dr. Ewww]

As an aside. Maybe the ride by attack needs to be looked at more thoughtfully. I mean, when one can't Trample, one may be able to Ride by more effectively.

[PG_Celedor]

-Grim gives it return fire. Opponent shoots at it...hilarity happens.

Last night I enjoyed the anguish and hesitation my opponents felt when deciding to attack the Be barreling down on them. Win win.

And whatever you catch in Grim's feat becomes far more vulnerable. Between charge, impact attacks, the aoe and spray you can spread a lot of hurt around.

[AceofShadows]

Also, it's some of the best warlock protection for our faction. Do not try to protect it too much mid-late game, get it up thee field and infront of your warlock.

[acsmedic]

High defense caster... run up a fenblade, impaler animus on wagon and bomber. Wagon shoots fenblade in back (should only need 4 to hit) knocks caster down and any thing blocking LOS close by. Bomber delivers coup de grace via 2 kegs of boosted damage boom.

I love my wagon... this also works with horthol and his boys doing some slams to make for easy wagon primary targets. (remember that you do not HAVE to follow up after a slam to avoid the wagon knocking down your own model, granted that you roll high enough on the slam)

it is hilarious when almost every model in your list can knock down the enemy, then you play menoth with the book, less hilarious but still fun!

[Beckman]

High defense caster... run up a fenblade, impaler animus on wagon and bomber. Wagon shoots fenblade in back (should only need 4 to hit) knocks caster down and any thing blocking LOS close by. Bomber delivers coup de grace via 2 kegs of boosted damage boom.

I love my wagon... this also works with horthol and his boys doing some slams to make for easy wagon primary targets. (remember that you do not HAVE to follow up after a slam to avoid the wagon knocking down your own model, granted that you roll high enough on the slam)

it is hilarious when almost every model in your list can knock down the enemy, then you play menoth with the book, less hilarious but still fun!

Doesn't work. Knockdown only triggers on "A direct hit against an enemy model."

[Beckman]

HOWEVER, I am surprised that no one mentioned my favorite use for the bomber: KILLING INFANTRY WITH IRONFLESH ON THEM.

The infantry can't run to engage him in order to jam shooting, since he can fire while engaged.

My Bomber and my War Wagon are BEST FRIENDS. The Bomber is like, "Hiya Hi-DEF Infantry, You Lose". If you keep the Bomber next to the War Wagon, when the high DEF infantry engage the Bomber, you just shoot the Bomber with the War Wagon. It's not an enemy model, so it can't be knocked down even if you hit it (which you won't, since it is DEF16 in melee, and you are RAT5). Even if you miss, you do not roll against other models in melee with the Bomber, since you are using an AOE. You can only deviate 0 inches, so you PLOP that AOE down, move your Bomber back and make chunky salsa out of the rest of the Iron Fleshed unit.

That'll probably only happen once to any given opponent, which is fine, since you can then lob 3 giant AOEs on their dudes until they decide to engage. It's nice to have some pressure to put on the opponent at range. And the constant threat of assassination due to being knocked down and tossed bombs on.

Edit: And tramping hooves are HILARIOUS. I feel so good whenever I trample over someone else's unit.

[PG_Celedor]

The first time I fielded the War Wagon, my opponent (unfamiliar with the rules) ran Alten Ashley to engage my War Wagon. I don't know if anyone collected Garbage Pail Kids Cards when they were younger, but Alten bore a striking resemblance to "Paved Dave" after that encounter.

[acsmedic]

Doesn't work. Knockdown only triggers on "A direct hit against an enemy model."

Damn another english fail on my part... I need to go apologize to someone... thanks.

[Beckman]

Damn another english fail on my part... I need to go apologize to someone... thanks.

It WOULD be significantly better that way... BUT freeing up your own bomber is nice.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Good point. So, for Trample to be reliable and predictable, WW really needs to be accompanied by Jarl or EGrissel to buff speed; b/c distance minus 5" to successfully trample. Noted.

Dash doesn't work on it - Warrior models only.

[JArrow]

I love my wagons too, and mostly when I play them both. Mut ALWAYS bring stone whit them. The difference between arm 19 and arm 21 whit 20hitbox, is whit my experience the difference between life and death.

[acsmedic]

Ran mine last night in a team game Khador ally against Circle and Cygnar. It was brilliant, kept on knocking down enemy and got the kill on Ghetto (after the stone scribe eldar took away his stealth Love me some war wagon.

[Dr. Ewww]

I am liking the idea of the Storm Troll's animus on the War Wagon. Thus proc'ing a lightning arc off a charge target.

[PG_Celedor]

I am liking the idea of the Storm Troll's animus on the War Wagon. Thus proc'ing a lightning arc off a charge target.

Would it also proc off impact attacks?

[PG_Goldstep]

Would it also proc off impact attacks?

"melee weapons gain Electro Leap." So no.
He makes melee attacks but has no Melee Weapons.
All the Storm Troll does is make the Wagon Immune to Damage from the Storm Strider and friends... which in the right army is still neat.

Similarly, he gets no crit from Flaming Fists (Pyre). And no Crit from the Slag either. But both give the immunity and the +2 to mount damage rolls.

The Wintertroll and Bouncer animus work just fine on him, far strike works on the cannon just fine (but not the scatter gun), and the Bomber and Earthborne animus are just as described one the package for him.

Dire Troll's rage doesn't do anything except change a stat the Wagon doesn't use [see below, TheEmu is correct] and every other animus we currently have cannot use him as a legal target.

Pyre, Slag, Storm, give some but not all effect; winter, bouncer, impaler, bomber, [mauler] and earthborne give all. No others do anything.

[PG_TheEmu]

Dire Troll's rage doesn't do anything except change a stat the Wagon doesn't use and every other animus we currently have cannot use him as a legal target.

If WW tramples, he uses STR for damage rolls, right? So, if you're trampling over something heavy armored (say, Forge Guard with arcane shield?) it might be a good idea? Otherwise I agree with animus usage.

[Dr. Ewww]

"melee weapons gain Electro Leap." So no.
He makes melee attacks but has no Melee Weapons.
.

I don't doubt that you are right. You seem to know much more about this game than I do. But, I am trying to understand why "Trampling Hooves" is not a melee weapon.

From the card it reads under Mount ->"Trampling Hooves": ...yada yada yada...this model can make one melee attack with this weapon.

I see "melee" and" weapon" and it seems to me like it is a melee weapon.

Can you please improve upon my ignorance?

[PG_Albinoprince]

Just out of curiousity, can you make impact attacks with the War Wagon? I mean, it's "Cavalry" right?

[Loki77515]

Just out of curiousity, can you make impact attacks with the War Wagon? I mean, it's "Cavalry" right?

Everything a cavalry model can do can be done by the War Wagon.

Impact attacks are perfectly fine.

[PG_Albinoprince]

sweet. Then you don't really NEED the open space for the trample. Just don't trample. Charge something. You may fail to kill a model and have to stop, but that's better than a failed trample in my book.

[JArrow]

Dr. Ewww mounts are weapons and whit trampling hooves can be used in melee, but they ARE not melee weapons nor trampling hooves made them one.

In most cases charge is much more better option than trample whit warwagon, cos it has boostet impact-attack-rolls, but not trample-attack-rolls. Mat 6 is not that brilliant, althought do not exept to get much models to impact-zone.

[wargrim]

sweet. Then you don't really NEED the open space for the trample. Just don't trample. Charge something. You may fail to kill a model and have to stop, but that's better than a failed trample in my book.

Problem is, if you charge something behind other models but fail to kill them with impact attacks, your charge is failed and you can't shoot.
If you charge and kill the charge target with your impact attacks, the charge is also failed.
If you want to shoot, you must choose careful if you charge.
If you trample, the worst thing to happen is that you stop, but your still able to shoot.

[PG_Celedor]

Problem is, if you charge something behind other models but fail to kill them with impact attacks, your charge is failed and you can't shoot.
If you charge and kill the charge target with your impact attacks, the charge is also failed.
If you want to shoot, you must choose careful if you charge.
If you trample, the worst thing to happen is that you stop, but your still able to shoot.

Bane Trall Banner carrier screened by two Bane Thrall. I gambled and charged the Banner carrier, both impact attacks hit and killed, both Bane Thralls, who both toughed and I failed the charge, loosing out on the two very potent ranged attacks. Probably won't make such a gamble in the future

[PG_Steamworks]

If you charge and kill the charge target with your impact attacks, the charge is also failed.

I believe this to be incorrect, you only fail a charge if you do not end your movement in melee range with your charge target. If you blat something with your impact attack, feel free to continue shooting away.

[PG_Goldstep]

I don't doubt that you are right. You seem to know much more about this game than I do. But, I am trying to understand why "Trampling Hooves" is not a melee weapon.

It's a good question.
Follow along with me, because I'm pulling out my Forces book and the Wagon entry in Domination and channelling my inner Teaching Assistant.

Turn to page 73 In Forces and you see the Entry on Burrowers. Don't look at the caber on 72. It isn't helpful for this part. Ok look for a moment. I love cabers.

Now we want to look at burrowers exclusively for the point blank rule and the two weapon entries. Nothing else matters for this explanation. The weapons are a ranged and a melee weapon. The Ranged is a Pistol on a Green field. The Melee is a Sword on a Brownish field.
I am skipping a few clauses, but point blank reads as follows

...this model can make melee attacks with it's ranged weapon...

This gets by the "only ranged or melee but not both in one activation" rule by making only melee attacks but making them with your ranged weapon too.
Now as further example, turn to page 85 and you'll see that Scouts have two weapons as well. And as well there is one melee and one ranged. In a description, the scouts throw axes until they get close enough and then they simply hit people with the same axes. But although they are the same axes on the model, for rules, one IS a ranged and one IS a melee weapon. An impaler (59) does this too, only with a spear, but on the scouts, this is hammered home with assault. You can see in comparison that one has a rule that allows a ranged attack in the same activation as a melee -- if you charged -- and the other allows a melee attack with a ranged weapon.
One last place in the forces book. The Blitzer on page 61 has Gunfighter and Virtuoso. While it has melee and ranged weapons, it can, if you wish, make both. Without Gunfighter, this is clear; he has to remove everything around him and then he can make range attacks after melee. But without virtuoso, it could still use gunfighter, but because gunfighter does not change ranged attacks into melee attacks the way point blank does, you would have to choose the guns or the fists. Together the two rules allow him to choose to make both ranged attacks and melee but do not adjust which are which.
Now on the War Wagon, Trampling hooves doesn't change any of the rules about ranged weapons, but it does change Mounts. Mounts are a third type. Red, not brown (might be harder if you are colorblind, as the brown was a very red-dy brown) and has a horseshoe instead of a sword (easy to spot). The Trampling hooves rule works simalarly to point blank. In all three cases it allows an attack at a .5 melee range. And in none of these cases is there a statement similar to "this is a melee weapon for this attack. Like point blank it does make it a melee attack. Then the wagon's weapon platform rule works like virtuoso does for the blitzer.

In the end it never has a melee weapon. It has a mount weapon and two ranged weapons. It has rules to adjust when you can use those weapons, meaning that you can use both in one activation and that you can use the mount when you normally could not, but neither is a melee weapon.

[PG_Goldstep]

Now after that small essay -- I should say The Emu is correct that Rage would adjust the trample value... and the rules say it can trample, so I guess that is technically true.

In all the time I tried to play with a warwagon, I have NEVER seen an occasion where it could trample OVER something. It's true of the Khador Gun Carriage as well. One medium or large base, one model who is between 6 and 10 inches away, or simply lacking models within 1-5 inches of it's starting position...

As far as I can tell trample is there for flavor.

But maybe some of you can get trample to work on this thing, in which case DTM's rage will change the pow from 14 to 17. I'm adjusting the post above.

[wargrim]

I believe this to be incorrect, you only fail a charge if you do not end your movement in melee range with your charge target. If you blat something with your impact attack, feel free to continue shooting away.

Exactly this is the problem with impact attacks. They happen during your movement and if you kill your charge target with them you are unable to end your movement in range of it.

While it kinda hard to kill something with trample, you are able to move 10" and still shoot. You don't even need a trample target.

[PG_Goldstep]

While it kinda hard to kill something with trample, you are able to move 10" and still shoot. You don't even need a trample target.

I was claiming Rage does nothing because the War Wagon doesn't use STR. Emu reminded us that it uses STR for trample damage... and it does. [I even fixed the original post, above.]
But that assumes it ever makes a trample -attack- and not just trample movement. You seem to be agreeing with me that it never does.

[Dr. Ewww]

Goldstep: Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.

[wargrim]

You seem to be agreeing with me that it never does.

What's the saying? It's as likely as a good skinner

[Beckman]

What's the saying? It's as likely as a good skinner

I think a 5" knockdown template and a spray that can both fire while engaged and trample/irritate people with knockdown guns is a decent deal for 9 points. It is sort of a quasi-support piece, though... as knockdown is a nice enabler.

[PG_Goldstep]

It's useful as a 5" template. The KD is better than a Crit, but since it's only about 58.3/41.7 on a concealed Khador Jack and well... most things in this game are not so favorable to the wagon...

The spray ignores the concealment, but, it's a tiny bit harder to hit due to range.

And it's odd how straight lines with gaps is enough to keep you to two impact hits...


I don't want to say it isn't useful. But it does tend to get burned pretty fast by melee troops with a speed of 6 and maybe a way of getting pathfinder... and by long ranged troops and a forest to block LOS to them.