Steamroller 25: Double Vayl - Triple Ravagore?

[Ordrek]

My LGS is hosting a 25pt Steamroller event next month. Since this will be my first timed turns event, I thought I'd K.I.S.S. and go with a simple set of lists; pVayl and eVayl plus the following:

Ravagore x 3 (30)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (1)

I suppose the play style is obvious, but remarkably versatile since a Ravagore can put the hurt on at extreme range and up close if necessary. pVayl vs Hordes, eVayl vs Warmachine (with possible exceptions in each case).

My biggest question is: What will be my Achilles heel(s)? Immunities are an obvious one, but those tend to be model specific. I have very little experience with scenarios, so I'm looking for "heads up" in that department too. I'm considering trading out one Ravagore for an Angelius just so it can push stuff around with Repulsion if needed. If I do that, what would you suggest for the remaining non-beast 2 pts?

[Celowin]

You will have many, many weaknesses and bad matchups. I certainly can't list them all, but here are a few things that immediately come to mind:

With such a low model count, holding scenario points is going to be a huge problem. Typical steamroller lists need to strike a balance between concentration of power (heavies) and distribution of threat (units). While Legion always focuses more on the former, totally neglecting the latter is never a good idea. I highly recommend you at least read through the current steamroller document. It is tough to get a feel for exactly how things will play out without actually seeing things happen, but reading the scenarios will give you some idea as to how difficult things will be with so few models to work with.

You will basically automatically lose to any Menoth list. Ravagores tend to need to soften things up from a distance before engaging in melee. Since the choir shuts down your shooting of Menoth jacks, you lose your biggest advantage.

If a trollbloods list carries a pyre troll, you're in a similar position. Ravagores cry when there is easy access to fire immunity.

In general, any infantry heavy list is going to give you problems. You will be able to shoot some on the way in, but if the opponent spreads his infantry out he will still have enough to tie up the ravagores while he starts scoring scenario points.

With all the disadvantages, though, I still think it could be fun to play. A lot of opponents will shudder at the list. Given that I consider 25 point tournaments to be unbalanced anyway, it might be worth giving things a go.

[Ordrek]

I know you're right on many levels, but I also think some of the "balance between concentration of power (heavies) and distribution of threat (units)" theory breaks down with Hordes vs Warmachine (where it is absolutely true). Concentration of power is almost always better so long as that power can be concentrated where you need it, which a range 14" mobile gun can do. The real issue is too few attacks to handle an infantry swarm.

Vayl REALLY wants 3 heavies imo, but at 25pts that is all she'll get if she takes them. How about something like this instead?:

Vayl(s) -6
Ravagore 10
Angelisu 9
Full Striders + UA 9

Then either

Max Spawning Vessel 3
OR
Min Spawning Vessel 2
+
Bellows Crew 1

Again, I'd really like a third heavy, but there is no way to pull that off with this many points unless I have no real units.

[Ordrek]

I know you're right on many levels, but I also think some of the "balance between concentration of power (heavies) and distribution of threat (units)" theory breaks down with Hordes vs Warmachine (where it is absolutely true). Concentration of power is almost always better so long as that power can be concentrated where you need it, which a range 14" mobile gun can do. The real issue is too few attacks to handle an infantry swarm.

Vayl REALLY wants 3 heavies imo, but at 25pts that is all she'll get if she takes them. How about something like this instead?:

Vayl(s) -6
Ravagore 10
Angelisu 9
Full Striders + UA 9

Then either

Max Spawning Vessel 3
OR
Min Spawning Vessel 2
+
Bellows Crew 1

Again, I'd really like a third heavy, but there is no way to pull that off with this many points unless I have no real units.


P.S. - Rather than just stating that there are too many weaknesses to list, how about listing at least two or three big ones? That way I can look at the problem and make an informed decision about whether I can handle it. Not giving me any specifics at all leaves me with nothing to work with.

[Celowin]

I know you're right on many levels, but I also think some of the "balance between concentration of power (heavies) and distribution of threat (units)" theory breaks down with Hordes vs Warmachine (where it is absolutely true). Concentration of power is almost always better so long as that power can be concentrated where you need it, which a range 14" mobile gun can do. The real issue is too few attacks to handle an infantry swarm.

There is another issue, which is the holding of objectives, and the number of attacks needed to clear them. If a 10 man unit is holding a zone, it takes 10 attacks to clear that zone. If a heavy is holding a zone, that heavy can be taken out with around 4 high power attacks. Add in that the unit usually has higher defense (so more attacks will miss), and things aren't nearly as clear-cut as concentration being always better.

Vayl REALLY wants 3 heavies imo, but at 25pts that is all she'll get if she takes them.

I agree that pVayl really wants 3 heavies. eVayl can sometimes get by with 2.

Personally, I think the 25 point format is just bad for Hordes. At lower point levels, I feel Warmachine armies have a huge advantage.

How about something like this instead?:

Vayl(s) -6
Ravagore 10
Angelisu 9
Full Striders + UA 9

Then either

Max Spawning Vessel 3
OR
Min Spawning Vessel 2
+
Bellows Crew 1

I like this much better. I think for the last three points, though, I'd go with a shredder (Vayl yearns for tenacity) and the bellows crew.

P.S. - Rather than just stating that there are too many weaknesses to list, how about listing at least two or three big ones? That way I can look at the problem and make an informed decision about whether I can handle it. Not giving me any specifics at all leaves me with nothing to work with.

I thought I had done so. Clearing and holding objectives is going to be a huge problem with so few models, and some armies can negate ravagore shooting against hard targets.

[Ordrek]

Fair enough, you're right; you did bring that up and it is a huge issue. You've given me a lot of good information. Thank you.

[Neutralyze]

Three ravagores make players lose friends.

[PG_BloodRath]

Absylonia and thagrosh1 are fantastic at lower points like 25 and really take the point pracket and shake it up. i reccomend looking around for some good 25pt lists for wither of those. if your set on all heavies both of these locks can do it. they are both durable enough to make use of their tools and still stay safe. and both list can club baby seals with other lists that cant deal with their unbalnced tools like the super defnese angelius and blight shroud or thagrosh regaining his 11pt beast after lousing it to take out an objective.