Blowing The Dust Off: The Seraph

[PG_BloodRath]

Not long ago Nutralyze and I were reminicing about Mk1 sereph and how mk2 the sereph was not quite what it needs to be to stay on the table for legion. Recentally I have been drooping the sereph more and more, trading threat range for board threat. I have even dropped the one from my vayl 1 list. I fear that soon the sereph will be collecting dust along side with my scather crew. to be honest looking at it next to the other legion beast on my shelf I see how bad the model is in need of a resculpt (we need extream serephs. You herd it here first.) What are your feelings tword the sereph? How do you use it? If you dont why not? Right now I dont use him and dont miss him.

[Ordrek]

It feels like a beast that is trying to do too many things at a mediocre level and throws in a great animus. Overall, the package isn't enough to entice me for the cost over a similar value specialist that does something great (like an Angel, Scythean, or Ravagore). The only time I'd consider one is in a Vayl2 Tier list where it fills lots of requirements for the tier list and only costs 7 (which is still arguably too much).

[Northern Ronin]

If the list cannot abuse Slip Stream (Either already has lots of Ravagores and needs the ability to threaten back field, or has other movement nonsense like leash), then I'm pretty luke warm about the Seraph. Dies to easy, fails to kill much beyond random troopers. Animus is sweet though, and some times it gets brought along just for fun. I do think P-Lylyth can make use of it outside of the animius, and E-Vayl can via Icy Grip.

[Neutralyze]

thats what I think. before the ravagore our best range was range 12 shots from angelius or raptors. the seraph was one of our ranged options and it use to be good in our eyes. SS was a very useful and ovepowered animus. When the ravagore came out we no longer needed to force engagement on their end of the board using SS to basically trade heavies. wse now force them into our army and dont have to overextend unless we really want to.

[Defenstrator]

I don't even use Ravagores that much (or at least not every game the way some people seem to), but my Seraph use had already dropped off.

The animus is great even now, but the rest of the beast just isn't bringing that 8 points to the table. It's not cheap and kind of fragile, but the big issue is that it has a short ranged gun while being bad in melee. An Angelius can pop things off at decent range, while at the same time being a melee threat things don't want to get too close to without reason. The Seraph bounces off heavy ARM, isn't that great against a cluster of infantry, and can't do the business in melee either. It's just too easy for the enemy to tie up and engage. I still use one in my beast heavy Absylonia list, but aside from that I generally can't find the room.

[Admiral_Arzar]

So far I've really enjoyed with the Seraph brings to the table in my first eThagrosh lists (I haven't played any other casters yet). Slipstream allows me to out-threat enemy heavies, wreck them, and then retreat with the Messiah's feat. It also makes Typhon-based assassinations a lot scarier. The Seraph also makes a decent troop and solo-killer and can kill lightly-armored casters or warlocks in a pinch (from 18" away if your caster slipstreams it forward). However, I don't yet own a Ravagore, to give some perspective regarding what Neutralyze said.

[Beckman]

thats what I think. before the ravagore our best range was range 12 shots from angelius or raptors. the seraph was one of our ranged options and it use to be good in our eyes. SS was a very useful and ovepowered animus. When the ravagore came out we no longer needed to force engagement on their end of the board using SS to basically trade heavies. wse now force them into our army and dont have to overextend unless we really want to.

I run the Seraph in about half my lists at 50 points. While I agree that some lists are better without them due to space concerns, I really find SS justifies its inclusion a lot of the time.

For example, I prefer:
Saeryn, Omen of Everblight (*5pts)
* Shredder (2pts)
* Angelius (9pts)
* Angelius (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
* Scythean (9pts)
* Seraph (8pts)
1 Spell Martyr (1pts)
Strider Deathstalker (2pts)
Strider Deathstalker (2pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)
The Forsaken (2pts)

to many of our other options with Saeryn.

[Neutralyze]

Why do you prefer it with her in the above list?

[PG_Draxos]

Just wondering but what was the MKI Seraph like?

[Cannotcope]

Mk1 Seraph (by memory, there will be holes)

1) d6 strafe, but that only triggered if you hit with your initial shot. That did allow for the occasional awesome turn of 7 shots.
2) Worse MAT and RAT (MAT 5, RAT 4)
3) Slipstream was "within" not "completely within" so Large Bases got ~4" placement (in the very beginning, some people though it worked how Feral Jim thought it worked when he first started)
4) Flight made it immune to freestrikes
5) Could slam (slipstream allowed you to do aimed slams using friendly models)
6) Was a light beast on a large base
7) 80pts (comparatively cheaper than it is now)
8) Typed damage didn't exist back then, so no immunities
9) Could be knocked down
10) Fury 3

[Neutralyze]

Rat 5 and one less armor and a little less life. The above poster has it mostly right though. Animus did get an errata to within 2" in mki

[JosephKerr]

I like the Seraph in a few of my lists for the animus AND the gun. When facing medium based caster's in small based factions it gives u a second shot at hitting and helps stack damage for the assassination. I've had more than a few hail mary assassinations succeed with the Seraph. Yes, it does less damage than the Ravagore but it's at least twice as likely to land a hit when in range which can make it stronger. It's also great against Stealth infantry, bouncing extra shots into Bane Thralls and nicking up Tartarus even if he's hidden. Normally if you need a gun you'll run the Ravagore, but I've found the Seraph has uses beyond it's animus.
One final note is that it can almost always shoot, since even if it's engaged your caster can just SS it out. It's pretty hard to NOT get shot by the Seraph.

[bubble pop]

it works really well w/ 2 ravagores and elylth you can reach the 10 inch line first turn wit the templates for a caster kill

[MeniteTom]

4 boosted POW 12s remains kinda scary, but otherwise you're spending 8 points for a solid but situational animus, given the fact that we out-threat most factions already.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I find I'll use a Seraph most frequently when playing Lylyth1 and given that Lylyth1 is one of my more regular WLs, that means I do tend to have tabletime with the Seraph. Typically I will run two, but in some cases may even proxy in a third. Combined with Parasite, the high volume of shots fired will chip away through even hard targets, while flight and SPD: 6 allows it to hover over the battlefield like an attack chopper. And the bonus die from Lylyth's feat makes poison more dependable. Additionally, who doesn't like seeing a Scythean get a 13" threat range?

The limitations of the Seraph, however, are readily apparent. It rarely has the oooomph to tackle another heavy, or sometimes even a light. Often, I'll have an opportunity for it to strafe through infantry, but historically will only come up with two or three dead infantry at most -- With the threat of debilitating charges tying it up due to its very short 10" RNG. Its RAT: 5 suffers from being insufficient to hit many of the targets threatened by POW: 12, while its POW: 12 is insufficient to damage the sort of models threatened by RAT: 5. And while it can very reliably tackle a painful solo or UA when it commits its full fury load to the task, it is all but assured of being counter-charged the following turn, making that an expensive point trade.

There's no questioning that the Seraph is a great contributor during an assassination run, however, especially when the opposing WC or WL's DEF can be lowered into the range where fury can be saved strictly for boosting damage. All in all, I suppose it's fairly priced at 8 points. Flight and Eyeless sight, along with the ability to generate multiple shots is useful. But while some beasts you'll reach for whether or not you can take advantage of the animus, I'll almost never include a Seraph before I've added something in the Army that can take advantage of an extra 2" threat range. Otherwise, PP correctly provided the Ravagore's +4" threat range as ranged support option of choice in the "Ranged" Hordes faction, eliminating the widespread Seraph Spam of MK I, and changing its role into primarily a support beast.

-s&s

[JosephKerr]

Well said, SteakAndSpirits. The Seraph is not as useful as a Ravagore, but it's not a beast to completely ignore.

[Lich_Lord_X]

I remember running 3 Seraphs with Vayl in MK1......Those were the days.....

[Crate123]

I havent played it that much, but last game it got 4 boosted shots in on a Hexeris that was debuffed by parasite, that ate through his 3 fury pretty fast.
If they would just release a new model I would definately pick it up.
I cant help but think that at some point they release a new flying snake beast and release the Angelius, Seraph + new beast as a plastic kit.

[@ndreas]

... Seraph often delivers the assassination or prepares for it (as I am currently only playing lists up to 25 pts, I can only tell from there).

And he has two nice (main) purposes: although Slipstream is great, I mainly use the Seraph to Strafe my opponents infantry (mostly play against Protectorate), those self-sacrificing Errants will die under the simultaneous Strafe-attacks, makes aiming for the UA more easy.
AND it is a great serpentine model with great base to hide my warlocks behind (and knock-down immunity keeps the screen intact).

For 8 pts it is pretty cheap, although its fire damage is a little drawback, especially against Menites.

[Gothgar]

I like one in eVayl tier list actually, slipstream + speed 8 flying beasts first turn?

YES PLEASE!

It also helps me get my ravagore out of dirty situations and get up the field a bit faster...

[W0lf]

I play one seraph in most my lists...

Slip stream is an amazing animus and strafe helps set up a fair few assasinations aswell as picking out uas.

The seraphs also a great screen for a caster when playing pkreoss due to knockdown immunity and large base.

Most lists i bring 2 angels 1 seraph... But i do love the flying beasts.

And hey... I play rhyas alot so go figure.

[W0lf]

Double post.

[DrakkenBlut]

Seraph lost a lot with the rephrasing of eThags feat and Manifest destiny to affect only melee attacks. It can still be buffed by Incite and use Parasite, so there's pVayl and pLYlyth.

I'm wondering if the emerging Collosals could return the Seraph back on the table. 2in more movement for a few pieces in the army, and thanks to low DEF of the Collosal, all of those Strafe shots can hit somewhat reliably and all could be boosted for damage.

[Mechnomancer]

The strafe is going to be more important with colossals. A lot of lists I am seeing have mechanics following closely behind the big guys. So, get in range of the mechanics, and strafe all extra shots into the support. Or using slipstream to get a side shot on one of the mechanics and go to town. They can't all hide behind one huge base.

[Northern Ronin]

Seraph lost a lot with the rephrasing of eThags feat and Manifest destiny to affect only melee attacks. It can still be buffed by Incite and use Parasite, so there's pVayl and pLYlyth.

I'm wondering if the emerging Collosals could return the Seraph back on the table. 2in more movement for a few pieces in the army, and thanks to low DEF of the Collosal, all of those Strafe shots can hit somewhat reliably and all could be boosted for damage.

The problem with this is A: You'll still want an Armor Debuff / POW buff to hurt a Colossal with just POW 12's with any reason ability, and you're left victim to a D3 roll, 2 Power 12 shots into one will do no appreicable damage, and 4 still isn't amazing without some great spike in power, still leaving the use of the seraph as a combat weapon with the same casters who can buff that in the first place. Though getting at support is pretty nice bouncing off that big base. With the low DEF I do think Seraphs may see more use in Melee against hordes ones, as that critical Poison is pretty good under Lylyth1's feat, or just with boosts, since most pairs will hit.

[Mechnomancer]

I think that models designated to take out support pieces are going to take on new life. You will absolutely need to kill the mechanics ASAP. Going tow to toe for three rounds with the things is just not an option. The Seraph while more expensive, does bring more versatility to the job. Against a colossal, I'd rather have my seraph than the Ravagore.

[Defenstrator]

It depends on the Mechaniks. Against Khador I have found it to be pretty useless since they are DEF 15 while touching the jack. You have to boost to hit and only kill 2 or 3 guys while now being in range of a charging heavy. Remember that while Strafe ignores intervening models the targets still have to be in range. So you are shooting at something that is at max 10" away minus the base of the jack, which is generally too close. In my own experience at least.

[Craaag]

I'm just starting to get back into Legion again and I completely blame the Seraph for selling my growing Legion force last year. Don't get me wrong it had nothing to do with how it performed on the table, it had everything to do with how ugly this thing is. I'm the type of player who likes to play with painted models and my painting skill is decent enough that when everything is painted it looks great on the table.

The Seraph turned out horrible, mostly because of the awful, awful outdated sculpt. I couldn't bear to look on it anymore and it soured the whole feel towards my Legion force. Somewhat of an extreme view I'm sure but if there was ever a model in need of a resculpt in all of the Privateer Press range it is the Seraph hands down.

Now that I'm getting back into Legion again I hope they do resculpt it because the rules for it are not terrible at all. Slip stream is a very valuable Animi.

[rexim]

I play a Seraph with pVayl, eVayl and eThagrosh all of them have the ability to let the seraph go in kill something and then back away.

The reason to have the seraph is its animus. Slipstream is so much more then 2" extra threat, u can go out of combat without taking freestrikes, change the charge vector etc. Move out of stuff like avatar gaze and its a model that cant be knocked down so a great model vs pKreoss.

I would never leave the seraph at home when i go to a tournament, one of my lists will have it, so i can out threat Harby and other ppl with 12" threath.

The problem with the seraph is that it is worth less vs hordes since its just one transfer even if its 4 shots. But i don't care about that since i feel legion have it easy vs most hordes.

[leo_neil316]

It depends on the Mechaniks. Against Khador I have found it to be pretty useless since they are DEF 15 while touching the jack. You have to boost to hit and only kill 2 or 3 guys while now being in range of a charging heavy. Remember that while Strafe ignores intervening models the targets still have to be in range. So you are shooting at something that is at max 10" away minus the base of the jack, which is generally too close. In my own experience at least.

Plus if they're for some reason not 4" behind the jack (moving up before it and then letting it move away) the ravagore is a better choice since you can just set 'em on fire.

If they -are- then the ravagore is still a better choice, cause of the scather template.

[PG_speedfreek]

The Seraph turned out horrible, mostly because of the awful, awful outdated sculpt.
...
Now that I'm getting back into Legion again I hope they do resculpt it because the rules for it are not terrible at all. Slip stream is a very valuable Animi.

A good way to sculpt a new Seraph is using a Teraph and wings of an Angelius.
I have one in my sig. and I've seen others around too.

[PG_BloodRath]

I used a heat gun and bent the wings 90° to angle much like the angelius. Its much cooler than the terrible glider pose it was in

[Lanz]

I like the Seraph, but I only take it in about a third of my lists. I don't always need slipstream, and I won't take a Seraph if I don't need slipstream. That said, I find that if I do need slipstream, the Seraph is always worth its points. It's a decent shooter, and handles damage buffs really well (4 boosted POW 14s can be pretty destructive). It's always a solid caster assassin, and can generally always get at least 1 POW12 on the enemy caster with Strafe allowing it to shoot through other models.

I treat the Seraph as an auto-include with eThagrosh, even down to 15 point games, and I've always taken one with eVayl as well. I generally consider one any time I'll be relying on non-reach beasts for bashing armor, so I have one in my Bethayne list too, since the heavies are all Carniveans.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Lanz highlights a good point about the Seraph -- If those POW: 12s can be turned into POW: 14s (POW: 15s in the case of Lylyth1), you start finding more reason to include it. It's so terribly short-ranged and pillow fisted on its own, and since MK II stripped its slamming utility, it requires other pieces of the army to enable it if you plan on using it as a primary offensive threat.

Consider the BFS as an option to include, if you're building a Seraph into your list without the explicit need for Slipstream, as their ability to place Harm on a target really improves the damage output -- Just don't expect your opponent to fail to notice that targets within range of both BFS and Seraph are probably going to take some strafes. There's no "surprise" factor, there.

-s&s

[@ndreas]

... recently I played without a Seraph and had those terrible incorporeal pirates from Cryx engage my Ravagore, which leaves me with two crucible turns (first turn the unit, in the second some light 'jacks were added, so no Freestrike-risk taken) not being able to use his breath, I would have needed Slipstream so bad in that game

[Necra-Chi]

Seraphs are still my favourite legion warbeast. They always get underestimated and they usually do something cool and unexpected, and often get me assassinations. If they get me wins, I don't care about whether they always get their points back. I usually run one seraph, and spam them in a theme list where I can get a point decrease on them.

People rave about the ravagore but in a great many matchups the seraph can deliver more pain in one turn than a ravagore. At a cheaper price and with more mobility.

[Cromusz]

I've just recent started using the Seraph and I do enjoy Slipstream quite a bit. It is nice to be able to change a model's facing to line it up for the charge, or to disengage a ranged beast so that it can shoot. I'm looking forward to getting some more play time with it.

What casters do you guys normally run your Seraphs with? I hear pVayl quite often.

I also really like the model. I'm looking forward to getting it painted next week.

[Custardboy]

A seraph for 6 points is amazing. You're paying 2 points for the animus. So he's gone from amazing to great.
I field the seraph in 1/2 to 1/3 of my lists, which is what happens for a good, well-balanced choice. I'm glad he's getting less play time now.