Dissecting Stormwall

[JamesDiGriz]

According to Beasts of war yes.

[leo_neil316]

#7 Epic Stryker - He almost didn't make my first round testing list. But I am intrigued by the size of the affected area of positive charge, and also the warjack bond (and ability to give it 4 focus) Really it isn't that big of a selling point, but I'll be trying stryker, runewood, stormwall, mechanics and a TON of sword knights.

Darth has little to do with his focus in the initial turns. Taking a stormwall and a lancer means you can load up the 'wall to do ranged damage, and then use the lancer to throw out either lightning storm (to give even more area denial) or rebuke (shieldwall units? Not any more, say hello to my little friends!).

Positive charge is a brilliant buff for it, as the 'wall is only packing MAT 6. At MAT 8 POW 22 there is little to nothing in the game that can stand up to it, especially when it can get 4 focus and an extra attack from the feat! Seven POW 22s will get it done. And of course, your fist to hit roll is boosted. Remember, this can make power attacks at reach! Like say, two handed throwing jacks clear across the room!

And all the while your opponent is panicing about it, Stryker is sitting there, waiting for his moment.

PG_Cloudgatherer: Hadn't even thought of using guidedfire + metal storm to soften up warlocks! Good call!

[Phantom]

What you are ignoring is that yes, a MoW will laugh off a single POW 12, but not several. Rapid Fire would allow you to concentrate fire on a smaller number of targets if you need to, so that you can kill 3 targets BEFORE they charge you instead of merely damaging 6 as they charge in (those numbers are just for example). This in turn reduces the amount of force the enemy can bring to bear in retaliation. Guided Fire makes Iron Fleshed MoW or Sure Footed Champions more manageable.

Or, if you're not facing those kinds of targets, consider light jacks and beasts, which are also more likely to have DEF where you'd want to boost anyway. Or Warlocks, where you can use those POW 12s to burn through transfers before you open up with the Big Guns.

Anyway, it seems like you're locked into a very narrow way of thinking about this and bringing a lot of negativity into it, as well. Sorry if some people wanting to consider possibilities instead of dismissing everything out of hand is bothering you in some way.

So saying that Guided Fire + Metal Storm as very limited uses is "bringing a lot of negativity" and "being locked into a very narrow way of thinking", now is it? You can theory machine your way into scenarios that make almost every single spell and ability combo in the game useful, that doesn't make those combos auto-includes or even particularly powerfull.

And I'm still waiting for knight_actualto explain to me what those obvious reasons are that make him a "monster" with Kraye, because it certainly isn't because of Guided Fire...

[leo_neil316]

So saying that Guided Fire + Metal Storm as very limited uses is "bringing a lot of negativity" and "being locked into a very narrow way of thinking", now is it?

...

And I'm still waiting for knight_actualto explain to me what those obvious reasons are that make him a "monster" with Kraye, because it certainly isn't because of Guided Fire...

Yup. Nothing negative here. Cough cough.

The thing has multiple ranged attacks. Guided fire is therefore useful, you can give it focus to boost damage on the big guns and pod, then cast guided fire. Now all your shots will likely hit, even against warcasters, and you'll get to boost damage.

Covering fire is nice and all, but dead models are better than possibly controlled models. Covering fire does nothing to stop magehunters (for example), magesight, guided fire and firing enough bullets to cut down a small forest does.

In addition Kraye's feat gives the stormwall boosted to hit rolls on it's melee attacks, these boosted to hit rolls help it against lots of targets. Some factions can field only heavies which the stormwall hits on an 8+ and then buff their defence. In addition it gives +2 movement and a free charge. That free charge means you get to hit something with an extra POW 20. Against high DEF lower ARM heavies that hit is going to do almost half of their grid. With the feat the stormwall will be able to batter multiple high def models into the ground. It also helps with the sweep attack if you choose to go after, say, kayazy or winterguard that turn. Oh and it lets it change facing, just incase something tried to get around it.

As the stormwall cannot make melee and ranged attacks in the same turn, anytime you were planning on using melee full tilt can greatly enhance your threat range. If you can't see how a model that can advance 10" and then two handed throw a heavy warjack 2" away from it into the enemy caster from a minimum of 3" away isn't powerful then I really can't help you. Also 15" charge threat, without the feat, 17" with the feat.

And then we have magesight. Pesky stealthed battlegroups getting you down? No worries, magesight lets the stormwall put the hurt on them. Hell, if the whole battlegroup's stealthed then you can even be cheeky and just drop the template on the caster, then whack 'em with the big guns. Either way it prevents the most common way to stop the big guns from functioning.

And of course it works both ways. The stormwall can't be knocked down and blocks LOS to Kraye himself, protecting the man on the horse from ranged assassinations quite well.

[Phantom]

Yup. Nothing negative here. Cough cough.

The thing has multiple ranged attacks. Guided fire is therefore useful, you can give it focus to boost damage on the big guns and pod, then cast guided fire. Now all your shots will likely hit, even against warcasters, and you'll get to boost damage.

Covering fire is nice and all, but dead models are better than possibly controlled models. Covering fire does nothing to stop magehunters (for example), magesight, guided fire and firing enough bullets to cut down a small forest does.

In addition Kraye's feat gives the stormwall boosted to hit rolls on it's melee attacks, these boosted to hit rolls help it against lots of targets. Some factions can field only heavies which the stormwall hits on an 8+ and then buff their defence. In addition it gives +2 movement and a free charge. That free charge means you get to hit something with an extra POW 20. Against high DEF lower ARM heavies that hit is going to do almost half of their grid. With the feat the stormwall will be able to batter multiple high def models into the ground. It also helps with the sweep attack if you choose to go after, say, kayazy or winterguard that turn. Oh and it lets it change facing, just incase something tried to get around it.

As the stormwall cannot make melee and ranged attacks in the same turn, anytime you were planning on using melee full tilt can greatly enhance your threat range. If you can't see how a model that can advance 10" and then two handed throw a heavy warjack 2" away from it into the enemy caster from a minimum of 3" away isn't powerful then I really can't help you. Also 15" charge threat, without the feat, 17" with the feat.

And then we have magesight. Pesky stealthed battlegroups getting you down? No worries, magesight lets the stormwall put the hurt on them. Hell, if the whole battlegroup's stealthed then you can even be cheeky and just drop the template on the caster, then whack 'em with the big guns. Either way it prevents the most common way to stop the big guns from functioning.

And of course it works both ways. The stormwall can't be knocked down and blocks LOS to Kraye himself, protecting the man on the horse from ranged assassinations quite well.

Thank you!

So its a combination of several situational spells + the feat that you guys find so brilliant. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one then, because for me the biggest selling point of Kraye are the cavalry rules, taking a model that will be the major focus of the entire list and that just disregards those rules completely is just counter-intuitive to my way of playing. But then again, it is not be the first time that I disagree with the Cygnar forums and certainly will not be the last.

Also, advancing 10" and then two handed throw a heavy warjack 2" away from it into the enemy caster from a minimum of 3" away would be allot more powerful if the Stormwall could then pump said warcaster full of lead! Let us hope that they get the Weapons Platform special rule in some way!

[John of Arc]

It's definitely worth noting that a range 10, POW 17 auto-knockdown attack is basically the best ranged weapon in the entire game :P

[leo_neil316]

Also, advancing 10" and then two handed throw a heavy warjack 2" away from it into the enemy caster from a minimum of 3" away would be allot more powerful if the Stormwall could then pump said warcaster full of lead! Let us hope that they get the Weapons Platform special rule in some way!

Actually I misspoke there, was thinking slam for some reason.

The twohanded throw lets you advance 10", target a model 2" infront of you and then two handed throw it at another model 9" away.

Taking the model thrown's base into account, you can basically knock down an enemy caster who is 13" away from the stormwall, and 23" away from where the stormwall starts it's turn.

And because horsepower gives boosted melee attack rolls you only need one point of focus to do it, as both the initial attack roll against the model you're throwing AND the roll against the model being thrown at are melee attack rolls!

Sure, you'll need to bring something else to finish them off, but hell, even at 35 points you've still got 21 for other crap after taking a stormwall. Hell, at 20 points you can still afford a fricking charger!

[knight_actual]

My thinking about this guy is that he is primarily a shooter. His melee abilities, and durability, while great, is not why he is worth 19 points. To that end, those casters that can support his ability to shoot will be the most effective with him. Kraye fits this bill. But not only that, his feat also makes him a melee beast too when needed.

RAT 6 is good, but I still want guided fire and Mage sight for when situation requires it.

[PG_joedj]

A Cygnar-playing friend of mine was noting that Trollbloods seem to be getting Cygnar-like abilities in many of their releases since MK II started.

It's great to see that Cygnar is receiving a prime Two-Handed Throw model! I look forward to my Trollblood Warlocks attempting to dodge my Warbeasts being thrown back at me!

As a Trollblood (mostly) player, it appears that fielding infantry against this would be imprudent, perhaps with the exception of Champions or Burrowers. Warbeasts by the bucket-full may be required...

Stormwall is a very cool model and will bring a definite influence to the balance of Infantrymachine vs. Warjackmachine, IMHO. I look forward to buying/fielding one, but after my Mountain King is painted

[paspinall]

As the stormwall cannot make melee and ranged attacks in the same turn, anytime you were planning on using melee full tilt can greatly enhance your threat range. If you can't see how a model that can advance 10" and then two handed throw a heavy warjack 2" away from it into the enemy caster from a minimum of 3" away isn't powerful then I really can't help you. Also 15" charge threat, without the feat, 17" with the feat.

Except "power attacks are melee attacks with a 0.5" melee range"

[Da-Rock]

Except "power attacks are melee attacks with a 0.5" melee range"

Except for Colossals which is 2" as stated in the NQ mag

[paspinall]

That explains it, I hadnt seen it on here iin what I had been reading (and dont have the NQ) thanks.

[PG_gord314]

Enraged bronzeback. PS19 charge, PS18 tusk with chain headbutt, 6 more PS19 fists. Avg ~37.5. Similar result. Add anything that gives +2~3 str, or a -2 ARM, and we're looking at it being scrapped in 1 go. This is COUNTING arcane shield.

I know I'm probably super late pointing this out, but you can't chain attack headbutt a colossal (with a titan bronzeback at least) because you can't headbutt something with a larger base then yourself, not even to just deal damage (at least that is the case rules as written).

[eKraye]

It would still scrap, that's the point though... If a slow *** Bronzeback is charging your stormwall you aren't cygnaring right.

[cannonball]

If the Stormwall counts as the two jacks to reach tier 4 in a Kraye theme list I'd like to gove it a crack. Sure you lose out on Ironhorse and Pursuit but you gainva combined arms model. Ala. CygnarTier 3: Mobile Strike Force31+6 points, 26 modelsCaptain Jeremiah Kraye +6 points* Stormwall 19 points* Hammersmith 8 points* 2x Hunter 6 points eachBlack 13th Gun Mage Strike Team 4 points6 Field Mechaniks 3 pointsGun Mage Captain Adept 2 pointsRangers 4 pointsRangers 4 pointsAdditional RulesAdd +1 to your starting game roll.Place 2 wall templates or forests.The rangers help spot so you don't need to cast guided fire every turn. The Hammersmith "flanks" for you with Full Tilt and provides another melee vector that enjoys Krayes feat and all the while Hunters soften your anti Stormwall threats. Cool I reckon!

[leo_neil316]

It would still scrap, that's the point though... If a slow *** Bronzeback is charging your stormwall you aren't cygnaring right.

Big guns do what? 12-14 damage a round to a bronzeback on average? It's got 32 boxes? And they ain't exactly cheap either. And has a max charge distance of 11.5"?

Yeah. Not that big a threat. I'd rather be scared to pThag's and his carniveans TBH.

[Ysthrall]

Looking pretty good to me.

RAT 6: Only Triumph and Hunters have RAT 7, as mentioned, so that the dedicated shooting warjacks.
MAT 6: Above this we find Stormclad, Ironclad, and Ol'Rowdy. Our dedicated melee warjack, the expensive prestige melee warjack, and the character dedicated melee warjack.
The Stormwall's an allrounder, slightly heavier on the shooty. Makes perfect sense to be the same as the Cyclone.

Kraye's Guided fire is situational only if you're not sure you're going to hit (anyone else has a game where they were sure they'd hit each time? Or where they flubbed a "sure thing" roll?), and inefficient only if you want to fire at such targets less than twice with the whole darn battlegroup. Kraye + Stormwall + Hunter + Hunter = 8 shots using the chain guns (average of 2d3 = 3), and 5 without. Thats efficient enough for me.

Yes, we'll have to deal with those nutcracker models (Behemoth, Molik Karn, Mulg) somehow. That's hardly going to be new.

Storm Pods as triangulation points will make my opponents scream....

Rules are solid, time to proxy it in a few games.

[King-of-Storms]

Stormwall is a solid model and the lightning pods look tasty. Kraye was an obvious caster choice to pull some whimsical maneuvers although I still think Nemo and Darius can be just as dastardly.

I still think people can easily oversee that Stormwall by itself is a very powerful asset but like anything else it needs support. Just like infantry support tanks in real warfare, light warjacks and infantry can make the Stormwall a serious pain the neck to counter. Like typical Cygnar fashion it has electrical attacks and good infantry denial capabilities.

I think bringing Kara in with Stormwall, Hunters and Defenders will make this into an artillery shooting fest with her feat and buffs that has the potential to wipe out half of your opponent’s army before he/she can begin to close in. I remain optimistic on Cygnar’s other additions in the next expansion. Hopefully there is a heavy infantry unit or a Morrowan non-character solo in the works somewhere.

Bottomline the Stormwall is Cyngar's Abrams to its Shermans, Chaffes, Pershings, Doughboys and Doc Holidays.

[vintersbastard]

Big guns do what? 12-14 damage a round to a bronzeback on average? It's got 32 boxes? And they ain't exactly cheap either. And has a max charge distance of 11.5"?

Yeah. Not that big a threat. I'd rather be scared to pThag's and his carniveans TBH.

You might want to add how you avoid the Hyper Aggressive advances. Those make a 14" distance not that great anymore.

(And it's a 14.5" threat with eMakeda and a Gladiator.)

[Nierak]

Looks absolutely awesome and i'll be trying 2 in some 50pt lists.

On a side note, if these pods are solos. Can they control flags if i place one next to it ?

[cannonball]

I don't think they have a point cost so I'd wager no.

[knight_actual]

So how high of pow and how many swings can a bronze back get up to at max?

[Defenstrator]

The Stormwall's an allrounder, slightly heavier on the shooty. Makes perfect sense to be the same as the Cyclone.

The Cyclone is MAT 7, as is the Defender and Gallant. It's the standard on the chassis. So it does seem odd the most expensive warjack Cygnar produces doesn't have the same MAT as the general jacks of the line.

[whats82]

Bronzeback has 3 base attacks, chain attack and FURY5 at MAT7.

With beast handlers only.
2x Fists at PS19 (one with charge)
1x Chain attack headbutt PS18
1x Tusk PS18
5x Fist attacks PS19

Warlock-specific buffs : applied for each hit
pMorghoul - +2STR (Abuse)
Naaresh - +3STR (Feat)
Xerxis - +3DMG (FURY) and +3.5 (additional dice on feat)
Rasheth - -2ARM (Blood mark)
Zaal - +3.5 (Last stand) and +3.5 (Feat boosts)

Without AS, bronzeback can wreck stormwall with only beast handler. With AS, any of the buffs will let it wreck stormwall.

[paspinall]

The Cyclone is MAT 7, as is the Defender and Gallant. It's the standard on the chassis. So it does seem odd the most expensive warjack Cygnar produces doesn't have the same MAT as the general jacks of the line.

Yeah the most expansive war jack, at a volume of like 3 times if not more than the others, its going to be slower, easier to dodge and the things big enough that they too are slow the low defense should still leave them easy to hit.

Now not saying I wasnt thinking of Mat 7 but i can at least see a justification in that respect

[whats82]

If so, then relatively Khador and Menoth colossals would be MAT5 base, according to their cortex technologies. Just sayin' too

[Temoinlanuit]

MAT 6 will hurt, but the very strong AI coupled with reasonable armor cracking will help plug holes in Cygnar list anti armor abilities without opening up the traditional weakness to WM infantry that warjack investment suffers.

Also opens up new list builds for mid/low-tier casters, which is interesting.

Seems like this will also open up some very RPS builds at low point limits (35 and under). Not relevant for tourney play, but also interesting.

Overall, feeling very optimistic about this model. Will be buying one, testing for two.

[Defenstrator]

If so, then relatively Khador and Menoth colossals would be MAT5 base, according to their cortex technologies. Just sayin' too

What he said. If the inferior Khadoran cortex can make MAT 6, surely we can make MAT 7. Although we do have +2 RAT over the Conquest.

Part of it is that Cygnaran jacks have always showed off their superior dexterity in design. Even the Stormwall has fully articulated hands, compared to the more crude graspers of the Conquest. But since the Centurion this engineering superiority hasn't been as reflected in the stats.

[leo_neil316]

You might want to add how you avoid the Hyper Aggressive advances. Those make a 14" distance not that great anymore.

(And it's a 14.5" threat with eMakeda and a Gladiator.)

Meh, as long as the warlock can't get close enough for the boosting hyper aggressive ain't such an upside on beasts .

And a 14.5 inch threat range, with one caster, and using another beast.

Yeah look, if a caster supported 21 point module can take down my 19 point model, that's just good game design.

[Lalnuir]

Yeah look, if a caster supported 21 point module can take down my 19 point model, that's just good game design.

It's not really using 21 points the glad does more than cast rush, he is an amazing beast. Only need one beast handler to aggro your BB the rest can still do other stuff. I mean sure yes you have to pay the points to bring them in the first place but like 90% of all skorne lists start as glad then beast handlers.

[guspm]

Regarding mat and rat values. In doing and do there were size modifiers to attack and defense. Small characters git a bonus to hit because relatively everything was large to them and barn sideshow. There may be a similar thing with colossals

[knight_actual]

So assuming 2 str additional from warlock after beast handlers +2, bronze back gets to 21? With arc shield, the storm wall is 22. 1 charge = 9 damage, can't head butt a colossal. 6 follow ups at 6 a piece is 45 damage points..... That's not 56?

Also, 1 point more per attack if the 'lock buff is +3 gets 52? Still not 56 on average?

Not where I want my storm wall to be of course, but I'm pretty sure this guy is just about the hardest hitting guy in the game bar warcasters?

[vintersbastard]

Meh, as long as the warlock can't get close enough for the boosting hyper aggressive ain't such an upside on beasts .

Huh? If the warlock's too far away to force the BB for additional attacks in the next turn, the latter wasn't that much of a threat anyways.

And a 14.5 inch threat range, with one caster, and using another beast.

Well, that's just the longest available threat range (the odd push notwithstanding), pMakeda and pMorghoul get 11.5". But since you already included warlock and -beast support in your earlier post (standalone threat range for a BB is 7.5"), I didn't see any reason to not add this.

So assuming 2 str additional from warlock after beast handlers +2, bronze back gets to 21? With arc shield, the storm wall is 22. 1 charge = 9 damage, can't head butt a colossal. 6 follow ups at 6 a piece is 45 damage points.

You're still missing a tusk attack there, which is another 5 damage. And you might want to count the charge as a 10 (rounding up).

[leo_neil316]

Huh? If the warlock's too far away to force the BB for additional attacks in the next turn, the latter wasn't that much of a threat anyways.


Well, that's just the longest available threat range (the odd push notwithstanding), pMakeda and pMorghoul get 11.5". But since you already included warlock and -beast support in your earlier post (standalone threat range for a BB is 7.5"), I didn't see any reason to not add this.



You're still missing a tusk attack there, which is another 5 damage. And you might want to count the charge as a 10 (rounding up).

My, badly articulated, point was that the bronzeback is basically the hardest hitting thing in the game. Taking out a stormwall with one will still require a fair amount of effort AND relies heavily on other models, models which can be killed or out of position. But the stormwall's heavy firepower evens the playing field nicely. The warlock needs to start turn within 20 inches or so of the stormwall, bit more for some, less for others, if that's not the case then hyper agressive isn't an issue. Walking too far forward can screw over a beast in ways it won't a jack.

Knowing that eMakeda can get an extra 3" of threat over the other ones (I pretty much assume all skorne warbeasts can always get an extra 4" of move, hasn't done me wrong yet!) is important though. Definatly one to watch as it makes it much harder to prevent charges.

And for the damage, the tusk hits at dice - 2 vs arcane shield, with +4 damage right? so that's 36 from the non-charge fists, 5 from the tusk for 41 and 9 from the charge attack for 50. Still not done on average. Even if we assume you get an 11 (never assume you get 11's) it's still standing, just.

With a +3 from the warlock you'll take it out sure. But I'm pretty sure only Raseth can manage that? And that's with parasite, which has other issues on use.

Of course the easiest way to prevent charges from single hyperbuffed models like the bronzeback (or behemoth, or carniveans) is just to stick other things in the way.

[Phantom]

Huh? If the warlock's too far away to force the BB for additional attacks in the next turn, the latter wasn't that much of a threat anyways.


Well, that's just the longest available threat range (the odd push notwithstanding), pMakeda and pMorghoul get 11.5". But since you already included warlock and -beast support in your earlier post (standalone threat range for a BB is 7.5"), I didn't see any reason to not add this.



You're still missing a tusk attack there, which is another 5 damage. And you might want to count the charge as a 10 (rounding up).

Cool, I better place one of my trusty pods in BtB with that Bronzeback to prevent him from charging my Stormwall then.

[knight_actual]

Why does the storm pod have Def 5 if it's not mobile?

[PG_Dino-Czar]

All of the models with the "immobile" rule are DEF 5 and automatically hit in melee. It is the same for stationary effects too, come to think of it.

[Phantom]

All of the models with the "immobile" rule are DEF 5 and automatically hit in melee. It is the same for stationary effects too, come to think of it.

The sheer utility of the pods beyond just arcing lightning is mind boggling!

Need a spot to precisely put up a Mage Storm cloud to kill LoS? Drop a pod and you are shooting that Mage Storm at DEF 5.
Need to circumvent pesky Stealth models to throw a Chain Lightning, Magic Bullet, Electro Leap? Just place a pod near your final target and you are good to go!
You opponent is smart enough to properly space your models so that AoE's won't catch more than 1? Place a pod in the middle of the group and now your AoE will catch 3 of them instead...
Need to block a charge lane to that Heavy Warjack? Just place a pod in BtB with it!
Need to quickly contest an objective? Just place a pod within 4" of it.

Priceless!

[vintersbastard]

My, badly articulated, point was that the bronzeback is basically the hardest hitting thing in the game.

Fully buffed (i.e. Rage + Stone Strength) Mulg hits harder: That's 6 P+S 23 attacks and one at P+S 21, assuming no charge ( = 54 damage). An Earthborn that gets its hands on a Pow 8 melee weapon is even worse (though unlikely).

The warlock needs to start turn within 20 inches or so of the stormwall, bit more for some, less for others

20" is the lower boundary, for a charging Xerxis.

With a +3 from the warlock you'll take it out sure. But I'm pretty sure only Raseth can manage that? And that's with parasite, which has other issues on use.

No, Rasheth only has Blood Mark (-2 Arm). You're thinking of Naaresh (up to +3 from the feat), Xerxis (+1d6 from the feat and +3 from Fury), or Zaal (+1d6 from Last Stand). Good thing that none of these has a movement buff (pMorghoul is the only offender here, with Abuse).

[leo_neil316]

Fully buffed (i.e. Rage + Stone Strength) Mulg hits harder: That's 6 P+S 23 attacks and one at P+S 21, assuming no charge ( = 54 damage). An Earthborn that gets its hands on a Pow 8 melee weapon is even worse (though unlikely).

20" is the lower boundary, for a charging Xerxis.


No, Rasheth only has Blood Mark (-2 Arm). You're thinking of Naaresh (up to +3 from the feat), Xerxis (+1d6 from the feat and +3 from Fury), or Zaal (+1d6 from Last Stand). Good thing that none of these has a movement buff (pMorghoul is the only offender here, with Abuse).

Ahh. Thank you kindly for the corrections (apparently I was more worried on speed than I needed to be, and less on damage!).

Although..... off topic that's gonna be a nightmare against the conquests, they're slower and unless they get a critical devestation they ain't stopping a bronzeback getting to them. And with just the +4 damage a bronzeback will put 68? damage past ARM 20.