Best beast for cracking armor?

[Lanz]

Simple question; which beast would you say has the absolute best armor-cracking power for its cost? This is baring any special synergies or tricks specific to a warlock.

When I say 'armor' I'm thinking roughly Khador range; ARM 20 with plenty of boxes.

I'll probably math it out later for some real numbers, but I'm mostly asking in terms of what people 'feel' cracks armor the hardest for the points they cost.

[Cursed]

Im going to get a few model soon but im guessing the Carni is a good beast to crack armor.

[rhino1085]

Best guess, in a vacuum? I'd guess the Scythean simply for number of attacks. Don't have the card in front of me, but isn't it P+S 17? Sure, you're dice-3 on ARM 20, but you get 7 (2 initials, chain, buy 4 more) attacks if my math is right. Of course, without boosts to damage it's the death of a million paper cuts. May not kill a heavy (or Colossal), but should put a dent on it.

[Feeniks]

Love me some Angelius for Armor Piercing: http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Armor+Piercing

[JosephKerr]

For cost, it's probably the Scythean, but the best armor cracker PERIOD is the Carnivean. POW 18 and three initials is really that big of a deal.

[DrakkenBlut]

If the question is which one to use against a Collossal, no one EB beast can kill one in a turn. Angelious would be the best choice, since at least it can reliably knock out a system or two.
Otherwise, I agree that for the most dmg output Carnivean wins, and closely behind it is the Scythean which wins in cost effectiveness department.

[Lanz]

If the question is which one to use against a Collossal, no one EB beast can kill one in a turn.

No. I'll leave the other thread for discussing how to stop colossals.

In this specific case, I'm thinking about what beasts I want to take in a normal list for the role of cracking armor.

The scythean was generally my bet anyways, and I have the most success with it. I had narrowed it down to mostly these 3 as the top for cracking armor;

1) Carnivean; Highest raw PS but only really 1 PS18 initial and a hefty price tag.
2) Scythean; The best for pure armor-crunching against low-def targets.
3) Angelius; Lowest damage output, but can do a lot of damage against even particularly high armor.

[Roadhouse]

Assuming Def 10 Arm 20 and no charge

Carnivean:.92(5X5+2X3)=28.52
Scythean (w/ Chain Attack):.92(7x4)=25.76
Angelius (Boost on hit and dmg for AP and boost dmg on bought attack):14.5+.92(4.5)=18.64

[Defenstrator]

I also have good success with Typhon. If it can walk up then 7 initials it it's MAT 7. I do feel all our beasts need a +2 on damage to be dependable though.

[Northern Ronin]

Best at it is Carni, it outshines the Scythean in everything but threat range, and it's still got a respectable default one, everyone claims the scythean has 3 initials, but that MAT 6 misses plenty, risking 2 attacks. Scythean is still good at it, and gets a discount for that risk, and less of a tanking role the carni can offer, and trades the free spray (random guns are never bad, more so when it's free on the charge, even if it misses a lot, it hits heavy's often enough to put a few added damage on it). Angel offers some anti-armor power, with some anti-infantry / solo perks, with a good control animus, but suffers when trying to one round an opposing heavy for its versatility.

Which one is best? Depends on your lists needs.

[Siphoned Core]

Ifyou're saying the beast with no support, it goes to the Carnivean. As stated above, it has the highest raw damage output compared to the angelius and the scythean, but it comes with a more pricey point cost

[Lanz]

I mostly agree on the Carnivean.

The context of this situation is this; I have a Bethayne list which I'm pretty happy about for infantry, but not happy about for beasts. I used to run a pair of angels since I had a Hellion, along with a Soldier and some Shredders. I then tightened up the list a bit to make it just dual ravagores. I'm happy with just having the two heavies + Belphagor, but not happy with the lists overall lack of heavy damage output.

So my current consideration is x2 Carniveans. The assassination potential is interesting, due to having them in a list with BFS to aid their spray damage output, and for the purpose of the role Ravagores filled in this list, the Carniveans do much of the same, except with added endurance and melee combat potential.

And I don't think x2 Carniveans has much animi overlap anyways, since they can use it on themselves, and their own use of it doesn't count as a spell, so I'd have two sources of non-spell Spiny Growth, including making them free to use on the feat turn.

So, on the other side, assuming BFS, which would seem like the best armor-cracking beasts? Let's also assume a Seraph as well, as I'm considering one.

So with access to Slipstream, Kiss of Lylyss, and Ice Cage, what changes? I feel it pushes the Angel out of the running, as it's single AP attack doesn't get a lot of mileage out of a +2 damage roll, and is typically not going to need accuracy boosts due to being boosted, nor would it need slipstream for speed as it's so fast already.

At that point though, does the Scythean at a potential MAT 8-10(depending on 1 or two ice cages) and PS19 with 6 attacks on a 13" threat range charge outclass the Carnivean at MAT 8-10, 4 PS 20s, 2 PS 18s and a 11.5" threat range?

[Crate123]

I guess it all comes down to how important those 1.5 threat range is to you. I havent gotten my scythean yet so I havent tried it, I have been faily happy with my Carni though. Playing against a Xerxis brick isnt too much fun even for a carnivean though.

[JosephKerr]

I'd Personally think of 1 Ravagore and 1 Carnivean, as points allow. Belphagor loves Spiny Growth, and the Seraph helps shore up your threat ranges with the Carnivean. The Carnivean is one of my favourite beasts in Everblight, though, so I may be a bit biased. As for the Second Armor Cracking beast, having a Carnivean front and center should give you another turn of laser shooting out of the Ravagore which brings it's overall damage closer to the Carnivean level, plus the fact that the Rav can shoot Bethayne in Belphagor for zero damage and drop a template of protection around yourself on turns where the animus isn't available. I also have a hard time finding ways to go without a Ravagore.

[DrakkenBlut]

Just a reminder , Ravagore:

Ravagore can ensure that it gets a charge (if the enemy is not in charge range, move back, shoot.) A Ravagore does 19.5 dmg on a ARM 20 target in cc, assuming 2x boosted dmg, one bought attack with boosted dmg, everything hits. That goes up to 25 dmg if it got one shot and 30.5 dmg if it got two shots before hth combat. Plus whatever fire did on the target.

This may be the winner, despite its low MAT.

[PG_vengence88]

I mostly agree on the Carnivean.

The context of this situation is this; I have a Bethayne list which I'm pretty happy about for infantry, but not happy about for beasts. I used to run a pair of angels since I had a Hellion, along with a Soldier and some Shredders. I then tightened up the list a bit to make it just dual ravagores. I'm happy with just having the two heavies + Belphagor, but not happy with the lists overall lack of heavy damage output.

So my current consideration is x2 Carniveans. The assassination potential is interesting, due to having them in a list with BFS to aid their spray damage output, and for the purpose of the role Ravagores filled in this list, the Carniveans do much of the same, except with added endurance and melee combat potential.

And I don't think x2 Carniveans has much animi overlap anyways, since they can use it on themselves, and their own use of it doesn't count as a spell, so I'd have two sources of non-spell Spiny Growth, including making them free to use on the feat turn.

So, on the other side, assuming BFS, which would seem like the best armor-cracking beasts? Let's also assume a Seraph as well, as I'm considering one.

So with access to Slipstream, Kiss of Lylyss, and Ice Cage, what changes? I feel it pushes the Angel out of the running, as it's single AP attack doesn't get a lot of mileage out of a +2 damage roll, and is typically not going to need accuracy boosts due to being boosted, nor would it need slipstream for speed as it's so fast already.

At that point though, does the Scythean at a potential MAT 8-10(depending on 1 or two ice cages) and PS19 with 6 attacks on a 13" threat range charge outclass the Carnivean at MAT 8-10, 4 PS 20s, 2 PS 18s and a 11.5" threat range?

I'd say the difference in threat ranges is pretty mute if you're taking Seraph since that makes Carnivean about as fast as a Scythean normally and charging a Scythean 13" puts him at the edge of your control and able to be pulled out of your control. Though one of each is my preference.

[Lanz]

Just a reminder , Ravagore:

Ravagore can ensure that it gets a charge (if the enemy is not in charge range, move back, shoot.) A Ravagore does 19.5 dmg on a ARM 20 target in cc, assuming 2x boosted dmg, one bought attack with boosted dmg, everything hits. That goes up to 25 dmg if it got one shot and 30.5 dmg if it got two shots before hth combat. Plus whatever fire did on the target.

This may be the winner, despite its low MAT.

Two ravagores was what I was using, and it almost never works out this way. At MAT 5 even against DEF 10 it's likely to miss an attack or two without a boost, and its damage is very low. What's more, its 'dictate who charges' concept relies on itself charging, so it's almost always going to only have 5 attacks on the charge. If all of those hit (they might, but there's a realistic chance they won't against def 10, and they almost certainly wouldn't against anything higher than that), that's 15 damage, more realistically (and closer to how much damage I see my two Ravagores actually do in actual combat).

The shot would do 5.5 damage against ARM 20. On the first round of the game, you generally can't reach the target with the direct shot, unless they had AD (theme list?) or a lot of speed on the first turn and decided to just run into your firing range. Second turn you'd get a full volley, for sure, but third turn things are going to start getting engaged, and objectives are being contested.

So realistically, the ravagore gets just one shot before being faced with one of two choices; A) Run away and keep shooting for 5.5 a turn, or B) move in to engage and rely on the MAT 5 PS 16s from that point onwards.

With the charge and one round of shooting, in the ideal situation where everything hits, that's still only 20.5 damage on a DEF 10 ARM 20. A bit more than half the damage of a khador heavy (if that's what we're attacking) and likely not enough to cause any significant system crippling damage.

So, realistically, the whole 'dictate charges' is not very practical in a scenario. If you use your ravagore's speed and range to hang back and skirmish, then all it's doing is depriving you of 10 points of muscle to hold objectives, while causing 5.5 damage per round to a warjack. Most warjacks will be able to endure several rounds of that.


Now, that said, the squishier and higher-def the heavies get, the more appealing the Ravagore becomes for a skirmisher. Against stuff more in the DEF 14 ARM 16/17 range (Warpwolves, other legion, that new skorne flyer whose name I keep forgetting), the Ravagore causes much more significant damage per shot, and its boosted attack roll and use of Eyeless Sight makes a bigger difference. Against these beasts, the Ravagore's inaccuracy in melee is made even worse, so there's even less reason to engage. Against those beasts, yes, this sort of thing might work, as a Ravagore can realistically take apart one of these beasts in 3 shots. But against actual armor, this has never been an effective strategy for me, and beleive me, I've been testing it non-stop since I got my second ravagore.


So, no, at the end of the day, it is actually dual ravagores that I am aiming to replace here. Dual ravagores are simply too specialized to lighter targets.

I'd say the difference in threat ranges is pretty mute if you're taking Seraph since that makes Carnivean about as fast as a Scythean normally and charging a Scythean 13" puts him at the edge of your control and able to be pulled out of your control. Though one of each is my preference.

One of each as Carnivean + Ravagore, or Carnivean + Scythean? Realistically, I have two uses of Slipstream between warlock and Seraph (and with Belphagor, it's not too dangerous to have Beth using Slipstream herself since she can be melded), so I can range-hike both beasts each round.

[PG_vengence88]

Either, but I prefer Scythean + Carnivean

[Roktop]

Lately I find myself crutching hard on Ravagores... 20" of AOE threat that lights targets on fire, leaves a singe wooun infantry killer template up for a round and can still punch up medium heavies... I love it!

My one list without one in it is starting to bug me and I feel lit it will require some retooling after lock and Load.

So I prefer Scythean Ravagore the extra 2" reach on the Scythean is super nice and potential 7 attacks on a heavy def 10 arm 20 target = 28 damage plus collateral attacks on nearby targets when chain attack triggers.

[Roadhouse]

Do you take the BFS with her? If you don't leave them where they can get killed on feat turn (this is mostly what happens for me ) they can bring the Ravagore up to relative mat 7/9 and pow 18, biggest issue is conservative use of the BFS.

[Lanz]

Do you take the BFS with her? If you don't leave them where they can get killed on feat turn (this is mostly what happens for me ) they can bring the Ravagore up to relative mat 7/9 and pow 18, biggest issue is conservative use of the BFS.

I do have them, yes, and often they are in position to be using their debuffs on the feat turn. My problem is that the BFS is pretty much required in order to make a Ravagore match a Carnivean or Scythean's damage output.

The problem I'm having with dual-ravagores + BFS is the lack of flexibility. In order for the Ravagores to match melee damage output, they basically have to focus on a single target the moment it comes into range. That pretty much defeats the purpose of having the shot in the first place, yet if I use it for what it's good for (sniping things) then by the time the heavies get close, the Ravagore hasn't caused sufficiant damage to finish it in melee. As for the BFS, I'm basically forced to have them babysit the Ravagores in order to bump their melee power to respectable levels, in which case the Ravagore may as well by a 15 point model, as I don't really have the freedom to use the BFS for anything but the Ravagore's target unless, again, I want the ravagore to be unable to finish the job.

That's the real problem, I guess. The ravagore can't finish the job itself. It needs either 2 turns of shooting the target, or it needs buffs. It's a greedy, needy beast, and I need more dynamics in my list.


I do like having the shot, though. Maybe Ravagore + Carnivean, then.

[Neutralyze]

The purpose of double ravagore is to force the opponent to engage you and come forward.

[Lanz]

The purpose of double ravagore is to force the opponent to engage you and come forward.

I get that, but what happens after they take the bait and engage you? 20 points of the list have gone into beasts that aren't as good at that inevitable engagement due to their preference for ranged combat. That aside, scenarios generally encourage them to come forwards and engage anyways, and I find most lists are optimized to engage, and will do so of their own volition. Why is 20 points needed in order to force the issue?

[alchahest]

when considering carniveans, remember that spiny growth helps you survive the next turn, if you failed to kill your opponent. I had a carni charge a Feral and get a pureblood into B2B as well. the carnivean ate the feral and did some damage to the pureblood, then the pureblood's own attacks finished it off on my oppenent's turn.

[Neutralyze]

I get that, but what happens after they take the bait and engage you? 20 points of the list have gone into beasts that aren't as good at that inevitable engagement due to their preference for ranged combat. That aside, scenarios generally encourage them to come forwards and engage anyways, and I find most lists are optimized to engage, and will do so of their own volition. Why is 20 points needed in order to force the issue?

They still shoot and continue to put pressure on while your other 30 PTs handles the incoming models. If you're worried about ravagores being subpar in melee you will need to take a warlock that helps them. Pvayl, ethags, kallus.

[Lanz]

They still shoot and continue to put pressure on while your other 30 PTs handles the incoming models. If you're worried about ravagores being subpar in melee you will need to take a warlock that helps them. Pvayl, ethags, kallus.

Okay, sure, I agree with that. I guess the use of x2 Ravagores with Bethayne in the first place didn't work because their pressure was redundant with a list that was going to be blazing over to the enemy anyways.