Buying my first faction, input would rock!

[Tick-Tock Man]

So I have been thinking of getting into Warmachines and have decided to take the plunge and buy a faction. I am aesthetically most attached to Retribution, Cyngar, and Cryx (in roughly that order) and after reading play styles and faction traits I have narrowed it down to Retribution and Cryx. I have always leaned towards Retribution for my first faction, but find myself hesitating as they are the least developed in terms of units available and I worry about buying a faction that I may struggle with, or at least have difficulty winning with as (from what I have gathered) they have a harder time winning a match. I played a learning game with Cryx and really enjoyed them. They seem to be a little forgiving in terms of making mistakes (Ret does not seem to forgive as nicely). From what I've seen Ret has a pretty gnarly achelis heel when is comes to stealth, whereas Cryx seems to be able to adapt to the situation pretty well. Also, what are the factions that really hate facing either Cryx or Ret?

Now to the meat of the matter. I want a faction that has lots of control. I really am attracted the the Hypnos, Gorgon, and Banshee, as they offer really interesting elements of board control which shuts down the operation of the opposing faction. Outside of de-buffing the opponent, does Cryx offer any other forms of unit/field/board control?

I also want a very "dynamic" faction. Namely a faction that can hit the opponent in a lot of unique ways. From what I've seen both Ret and Cryx offer this, probably more-so Cryx.

And finally, a player at my FLGS has offered to sell me his Cryx for a "good" deal. His offer is: Cryx Codex, Warmachine rulebook, Two starter boxes of Cryx, Asphyxious, Bane Lord Tartarus, Pistol Wraith, a deathjack, and a Leviathan for $150.

I know there is a lot of questions in this post, I greatly appreciate feedback and input.

Thanks!

[PG_Emberwild]

If you want board control Rahn, battle mages, artificer and magisters are awesome. Being able to open up charge lanes for an assassination run is a beautiful thing. Gorgon is not all that exciting but some people can get him to work for them. I have not had too much of an issue with stealth as I run stormfall archers in most of my lists and I just got Discordia which are the two main weapons for Ret to handle stealth.

[Tick-Tock Man]

Really, because the way some Ret players go on about stealth you would think they were absolutely crippled by stealth.

[Derikari]

It's only really an issue when its stealth with decent arm. That would be bane thralls, shadowpack/mancer and the odd occulation. Usually carpet bombing will solve it otherwise, or just stabbing them in the face.

[Tick-Tock Man]

Any reason why other players slam Ret so much? I find their aesthetic pretty cool, and they seem to have some great units going for it. Ret has its weaknesses, but all factions should have a weakness or two.

[Lord Sessadore]

Well, Ret is quite unforgiving, that much is true. Don't expect to win for quite a while if you're starting with Ret.

Re: A dynamic force - this could be a lot of things. If you mean a versatile force that has many options any given turn (charge into melee, attack from range, try to pull off trick X, Y, or Z, etc...) then I'd say Ret is your faction. That's sort of what we do. Almost all of the units people use often with Ret can do more than one thing (either being equally good at them or having one primary focus and then one or two secondary focuses that they are pretty good at), and every single one of our heavies have a ranged weapon and two melee initials, as well usually at least one special ability. This can make it hard to learn with Ret, simply because you have so many options each turn, but this is the strength that most Ret players build on when they become more experienced.

As to why people rag on Ret ... I'd say it's a combination of things. They're the newest Warmachine faction, they have the smallest pool of models to pick from (even though 95% of them are very good models), they have yet to have a really good player go and win a big con with them (this is an important accomplishment in many forum-goers eyes, the thinking is that a faction isn't competitive if they aren't winning cons), and they have a totally different aesthetic than the steampunk you find in the rest of the Iron Kingdoms (this makes some people mad - "don't put sci-fi in my steampunk!").

Please, keep in mind that in that last paragraph I've made some broad generalizations and very short summaries of the stances people take. You probably can't find any two people on these forums that fit all of those, these are just the most common opinions/complaints I've seen. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Hmm...that's not a bad deal on the Cryx. Not stellar, but certainly not bad.

Cryx is MUCH more forgiving than the Retribution. Their power pieces are amazing and they have a stable of powerhouse casters. The difference is not that one is better than the other, but that you can make a mistake in a tournament setting with Cryx and still win. I have found that if you make a mistake with the Retribution, it's often fatal. Cryx also does control and probably does it better than Ret. Debuffing everything is a pretty amazing form of control. Also, there's a fair bit of Incorporeal and Ghostly which lets them place troops where they shouldn't (whereas the elves can just shoot there). And Satyxis Raiders are a major control piece by themselves. Elves are fast, but I think Satyxis are cheating.

Now, it may sound like I am trying to talk up Cryx. I am not. But I am far more interesting in you playing and enjoying Warmachine than I am in your buying elves. I don't like recommending Retribution to my new players locally because it's unforgiving and it's easy to get frustrated when it seems like the PG can do things that you can't with the same models. However, the number one most important thing when choosing a first faction: Do you like them? Not are they killy...not are they easy to win with...and not who gave you the best deal. But do you plain like them? If not, it will be hard to get excited about spending hundreds of hours and dollars assembling, painting and aquiring them.

Both Cryx and the Retribution are fun, dynamic and capable of winning. Warmachine is very balanced and you won't find yourself in a situation where you fell in love with an army, but get punched in the junk when you try to play (*cough*SistersofBattle*cough*).

Whichever you decide, there are folks both here and in the Cryx community who will be happy to help you. Feel free to PM me at any time, should you require anything.

[Tick-Tock Man]

So the guy backed out of the Cryx deal, so now I can think about my purchase without feeling like I need to hurry and make a decision. I still want to get into the game, so what I was thinking was doing an initial $200 faction starter. Any input on what that should entail for a good all around starting faction?

Thanks!

[Feeniks]

Well if the summer sale is still going on with the PP store that's a good place to start. I usually play legion so I actually just bought it myself for my first investment into a 2nd faction. That'll get you up to 25 points. If you get that you could magnetize a couple of the Myrm options to save you some money.

Are you looking at getting up to 50 or 35 points? Might be worth investing into another warcaster or two, maybe a frontline unit like sentinels or halberdiers (That's a funny word when you say it out loud, never thought of it til now), definitely a pair of arcanists. If you figure out what war casters you want to focus on it'll be easier to pick up some models with synergy to them.

[thevampiredio]

whoa serious?!? Ret is more unforgiving than cryx?? but they have better armor than cryx.
crap. and i was really looking forward to starting Ret because of how amazing Hyperion look.:/

[Calcifar]

So I have been thinking of getting into Warmachines and have decided to take the plunge and buy a faction. I am aesthetically most attached to Retribution, Cyngar, and Cryx (in roughly that order) and after reading play styles and faction traits I have narrowed it down to Retribution and Cryx. I have always leaned towards Retribution for my first faction, but find myself hesitating as they are the least developed in terms of units available and I worry about buying a faction that I may struggle with, or at least have difficulty winning with as (from what I have gathered) they have a harder time winning a match. I played a learning game with Cryx and really enjoyed them. They seem to be a little forgiving in terms of making mistakes (Ret does not seem to forgive as nicely). From what I've seen Ret has a pretty gnarly achelis heel when is comes to stealth, whereas Cryx seems to be able to adapt to the situation pretty well. Also, what are the factions that really hate facing either Cryx or Ret?

Now to the meat of the matter. I want a faction that has lots of control. I really am attracted the the Hypnos, Gorgon, and Banshee, as they offer really interesting elements of board control which shuts down the operation of the opposing faction. Outside of de-buffing the opponent, does Cryx offer any other forms of unit/field/board control?

I also want a very "dynamic" faction. Namely a faction that can hit the opponent in a lot of unique ways. From what I've seen both Ret and Cryx offer this, probably more-so Cryx.

And finally, a player at my FLGS has offered to sell me his Cryx for a "good" deal. His offer is: Cryx Codex, Warmachine rulebook, Two starter boxes of Cryx, Asphyxious, Bane Lord Tartarus, Pistol Wraith, a deathjack, and a Leviathan for $150.

I know there is a lot of questions in this post, I greatly appreciate feedback and input.

Thanks!

I would argue that Cryx offers, as a whole faction, more control than Retribution. Additionally, if you are worried about losing and are just starting out, Ret could be a bit difficult for you since they require a certain finesse to excel with.
The main reason for that is that much of Ret relies on shooting, so you'll need to be able to estimate distances quite well. Also, some of the infantry can fold quickly but at the same time will cost quite a few points, so that hurts when it happens. Cryx on the other hand almost exclusively relies on melee combat, is very good at it and can fields loads of cheap infantry that still hits hard.

Gameplaywise, where do you want your army focus to be ? Cryx armies are quite focused on their warcasters, which are premium and their infantry, jacks are more of a side- thing, though there are morty lists which run loads of jacks.
Ret is quite focused on infantry, solos and less on casters, jacks are present but often in a support role, though they can beat face pretty good.


All that aside, if your main meat is control, look no further than Orboros, its the "blue" of this game and all about spitting in your opponents coffee.
I wouldnt say that control is Ret's forte' . There are other factions which would come first, namely Circle, Menoth and cryx.

Regarding army development, to illustrate, currently Ret has got half the amount of warcasters of other Warmachine factions, soon this will be true compared to hordes aswell. PP has stated that they are happy with this, so this will most likely not change. Ret also has half the amount of units and extremelyl ittle mercs to pick from. So while Ret choices are limited, most of these choices we have, are very viable, not so in other factions where there are actual unplayed units.


Before you go out and spend 200 bucks on smth, i would like to recommend you to do some games in Vassal and test out the armies and forces you are interested in.

vassalengine.org it is a warmachine online lobby, you can actually play warmachine there with other people, perfect for trying out without spending the cash.

[Tick-Tock Man]

I would argue that Cryx offers, as a whole faction, more control than Retribution. Additionally, if you are worried about losing and are just starting out, Ret could be a bit difficult for you since they require a certain finesse to excel with.
The main reason for that is that much of Ret relies on shooting, so you'll need to be able to estimate distances quite well. Also, some of the infantry can fold quickly but at the same time will cost quite a few points, so that hurts when it happens. Cryx on the other hand almost exclusively relies on melee combat, is very good at it and can fields loads of cheap infantry that still hits hard.

Gameplaywise, where do you want your army focus to be ? Cryx armies are quite focused on their warcasters, which are premium and their infantry, jacks are more of a side- thing, though there are morty lists which run loads of jacks.
Ret is quite focused on infantry, solos and less on casters, jacks are present but often in a support role, though they can beat face pretty good.


All that aside, if your main meat is control, look no further than Orboros, its the "blue" of this game and all about spitting in your opponents coffee.
I wouldnt say that control is Ret's forte' . There are other factions which would come first, namely Circle, Menoth and cryx.

Regarding army development, to illustrate, currently Ret has got half the amount of warcasters of other Warmachine factions, soon this will be true compared to hordes aswell. PP has stated that they are happy with this, so this will most likely not change. Ret also has half the amount of units and extremelyl ittle mercs to pick from. So while Ret choices are limited, most of these choices we have, are very viable, not so in other factions where there are actual unplayed units.


Before you go out and spend 200 bucks on smth, i would like to recommend you to do some games in Vassal and test out the armies and forces you are interested in.

vassalengine.org it is a warmachine online lobby, you can actually play warmachine there with other people, perfect for trying out without spending the cash.

I'll look into that. Does the website have some running rules for the game? If not, where can I find some current rules?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

vassalengine.org it is a warmachine online lobby, you can actually play warmachine there with other people, perfect for trying out without spending the cash.

I have downloaded Vassal, but cannot download Warmachine XD

[Derikari]

Looking in the right place? The module is here. It does not come with any rules, it is nothing more than a way to play online. Slowly.

PP does have starter rules for download here but they only cover the basics of jacks and casters. I don't think they've added Ret to the PDF.

[Calcifar]

it is nothing more than a way to play online. Slowly.

If you know how to use Vassal, it is faster than playing on a a real table.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Looking in the right place? The module is here. It does not come with any rules, it is nothing more than a way to play online. Slowly.

PP does have starter rules for download here but they only cover the basics of jacks and casters. I don't think they've added Ret to the PDF.

Your link took me to where I had been.

It keeps saying 'looking for blah blah blah' and the blah blah blah keeps changing. Then nothing happens.

The computer says.... no

lol.

[newsun]

I recently downloaded and installed from that site on OSX just fine. I'd post on Vassal or the Warmachine-Vassal forums for assistance if you are having trouble.

[Tick-Tock Man]

Ok, after reading up and really thinking about it, I can't find myself getting excited for another faction outside of Ret in terms of Warmachine factions, despite peoples warning or very vocal disagreement.

Here is what I was thinking for an initial buy in:
Warcaster(s):Kaelyssa, Ravyn
Light Jacks: Griffon
Heavy Jacks: Phoenix, Banshee (in their respected boxes so really my choice of three heavy jack from each box)
Solos: Mage Hunter Assassin X2

Which all comes out to about $80

How does this sound for an initial setup. Would this be a good place to start and get a feel before I put more money into the game? I would probably run 15 point games to learn, then go from there. Let me know you opinion. The only thing I am not sure of is switching the Griffon for a Chimera for the arc node. Also I was thinking of getting the Hypnos attachment.

Thanks!

[Kurami]

Looks like a good start, i would not advice picking up Hypnos though unless you are magnetising your Vyre Kit as it is really Ossyans Jack and only shines when used with him. Have you considered picking up a unit? it would help you learn that part of the game.

[Tick-Tock Man]

In terms of infantry units I was thinking of buying invictors+UA, as they are decent at both melee and range. MHSF are of course amazing, and the Halbrediers look sweet as well, but invictors give me a little of both.

[Lord Sessadore]

Invictors or MHSF are both good units to start with, you're on the right track. Note that the MHSF are decent in melee as well, though they are better at ranged certainly. Of course, whichever unit you pick make sure you get the UA!

I would also put an Arcanist or two on your short list of things to expand with, they really help run our jacks.

[Kurami]

you can't really go wrong with any of the units you have in mind. I personally started with Sentinels, but started out with Rahn. MHSF will fit in more lists than Invictors from my experience, but both should do you well.

[Murkhadh]

you can't really go wrong with any of the units you have in mind. I personally started with Sentinels, but started out with Rahn. MHSF will fit in more lists than Invictors from my experience, but both should do you well.

As much as I love the invictors. They are making less and less lists for me. MHSF and stormfalls just each do things they dont.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

As much as I love the invictors. They are making less and less lists for me. MHSF and stormfalls just each do things they dont.

Bingo! They are good. I just seem to get more mileage out of everything else.

[5-Cents]

Now hold on, I have always maintained that Invictors are superior to MHSF in an Ossyan list. Given that Ossyan tends to run more myrmidons than Ravyn (at least I do) they have much better flank opportunities. Plus they're strengths compliment Ossyan much better than Rayvn, as much as MHSF works with Rayvn better than Ossyan.

Allow me to explain, (this is all just my opinion of course) Invictors and MHSF both have the same RAT, now Rayvn boosts Attack rolls while Ossyan boosts damage rolls. The difference is that Invictors have the ability to improve they're RAT through CRA'ing and popping feat to allow an aiming bonus. Now MHSF on the other hand the best move with Rayvn is to Snipe-Feat-Go, as in full advance followed by boosted and sniped attacks while ignoring LoS, to pick off the caster/support units.

Of course this argument is only for Ossyan specifically. And sorry for WoT.

[Tick-Tock Man]

Wouldn't the invictors do a better job protecting the mage hunter assassins, and be good little buddies to my jacks? Don't get me wrong, the MHSF are some nasty units, but they like doing their own thing. Also, what how does the melee for invictors and MHSF compare? Could you give me the stats, that would help me decide.

[5-Cents]

I think straight up posting stats is taboo here, but I can describe the differences just fine.

Invictors have +1 P+S on the MHSF and they have Flank (Friendly Faction Warjack). They also have +4 Armor or +6 if they are base-to-base with another unit member

MHSF have (in melee mind you) CMA and Jack Hunter

In melee I find Invictors much better, I would pick them over MHSF in an objective based game, but they can't beat MHSF in the assassination sense.

[Lord Sessadore]

Invictors also have +1 MAT over MHSF, but -1 SPD and no pathfinder so can't charge as far.

[Tick-Tock Man]

Think I'm going to add a couple of ghost snipers on the cheap as well while debating between MHSF and invictors.

[Murkhadh]

Now hold on, I have always maintained that Invictors are superior to MHSF in an Ossyan list. Given that Ossyan tends to run more myrmidons than Ravyn (at least I do) they have much better flank opportunities. Plus they're strengths compliment Ossyan much better than Rayvn, as much as MHSF works with Rayvn better than Ossyan.

Allow me to explain, (this is all just my opinion of course) Invictors and MHSF both have the same RAT, now Rayvn boosts Attack rolls while Ossyan boosts damage rolls. The difference is that Invictors have the ability to improve they're RAT through CRA'ing and popping feat to allow an aiming bonus. Now MHSF on the other hand the best move with Rayvn is to Snipe-Feat-Go, as in full advance followed by boosted and sniped attacks while ignoring LoS, to pick off the caster/support units.

Of course this argument is only for Ossyan specifically. And sorry for WoT.

the mhsf and stormfalls have been outdoing the vics with Ossyan for me.

the mhsf snipe out key support pieces taht the vics don't have los to and on ossyan's feat turn, all of the jacks die to the mhsf.

when it comes to raw damage, the stormfalls outperform the vics and can also light things on fire. I'd rather take 8 4d6 pow 12's for 2 less points than 5 3d6 pow 14's.

And yes the vics are more accurate, but the things you generally need to do that kind of damage too are low def anyhow and if you really need to you can drop def even more with Ossyans gun.

[Tick-Tock Man]

*Whoosh* over my head.

[Calcifar]

or you could just forget about invictors and go straight with the more appealing invictor - version : the Nyss Hunters.

2 less pow on the gun, 2 more range, weapon master, 2 spd faster, frackin 3 more def, pathfinder and hunter.
Nyss Hunters are more fragile to blasts and have one less Mat. That said, the invictors Arrmor will only seldom save them from an average pow 10 and Ret offers enough anti - blast tech to make the Nyss very, very awesome.


Downside is that both ossyan's and Ravyn's feat are faction model specific, so Nyss hunters wouldn't benefit from the feats.

i still prefer Nyss hunters though, they are overall much more survivable, mobile, got a much higher threat range and work very well independently.

Really that armor wont save the invictors from much other than the one or other unlucky blast roll.

Dont get me wrong, invictors are imo solid but I find them ineffective in the common warmachine meta, where high def and threat ranges are where it's at for infantry. Nyss Hunters will offer you more agressive play, invictors need to shuffle forward and that is that, not much flanking with those and CRa is amazing for flanking !


Nyss hunters !

[bouncymischa]

I find them ineffective in the common warmachine meta

Eh, that depends on how you define a "common" Warmachine meta. In the typical competitive meta, sure that applies, but in casual games you're likely to see more average stuff that people are pulling out for fun.

I'll admit, I got Invictors first because they appealed to me conceptually and aesthetically, but I feel that they do exemplify the "both melee and ranged" kind of unit best within the faction. Nyss Hunters are a great out-of-faction choice that can pull the better weight, but it depends on whether or not you are planning to use warcasters that have a strong faction emphasis or not.

[Calcifar]

Eh, that depends on how you define a "common" Warmachine meta. In the typical competitive meta, sure that applies, but in casual games you're likely to see more average stuff that people are pulling out for fun.

I'll admit, I got Invictors first because they appealed to me conceptually and aesthetically, but I feel that they do exemplify the "both melee and ranged" kind of unit best within the faction. Nyss Hunters are a great out-of-faction choice that can pull the better weight, but it depends on whether or not you are planning to use warcasters that have a strong faction emphasis or not.

I agree with you misha, with the exception being that invictors are generally better in melee.
True, they got that magical extra Mat and one more pow, but, they require that extra Myrmidon in order to have that weapon master bonus, though they will then sit at mat 9, which is quite crazy.

I just see the nyss more of a flanking unit, while you probably want to run the invicts in the middle - or so - of the table.


Just seems to me, that quick, self reliant flanking is a bigger threat when it comes to CRA units. I still like the invictors for what they are but if i need to choose between the two, i fidn that we have better units to run the middle, like sentinels for example.

[bouncymischa]

I agree with you misha, with the exception being that invictors are generally better in melee.
True, they got that magical extra Mat and one more pow, but, they require that extra Myrmidon in order to have that weapon master bonus, though they will then sit at mat 9, which is quite crazy.

I just see the nyss more of a flanking unit, while you probably want to run the invicts in the middle - or so - of the table.

Just seems to me, that quick, self reliant flanking is a bigger threat when it comes to CRA units. I still like the invictors for what they are but if i need to choose between the two, i fidn that we have better units to run the middle, like sentinels for example.

I'm not sure if I actually said that Invictors are (in general) "better in melee"... I said I felt the exemplify the concept of "capable of both melee and ranged" best within faction. MHSF can do well in melee, particularly against warjacks, but their UA is so powerful that I suspect most beginning players will prefer to use them as a primarily ranged unit, just to take advantage of Phantom Hunter. The other in-faction unit options that remain are pretty much either ranged or melee focused (although Battle Mages can do pretty well at either...) Invictors are a generalist, multipurpose unit.

In the end, Nyss Hunters are probably slightly more flexible in that their Weapon Master makes them better against hard targets -- I'll admit, Flanking is hard to set up, so I rarely consider it when looking at Invictors. It largely comes down to the question of whether you want to stay in faction, or not.

Admittedly, there's also the fact that one shouldn't limit oneself too severely when building lists. I'll take Sentinels with Ossyan, for example, because I hate the idea of being dependent on his feat to take down heavy targets. Sentinels can't take advantage of his feat, but they're a threat I can use anytime. So yeah, there's something to be said for not worrying too much about being in faction...

Of course, there's also the argument that Invictors are easier to assemble than Nyss Hunters. Muahahah~

[Calcifar]

Of course, there's also the argument that Invictors are easier to assemble than Nyss Hunters. Muahahah~

lawl D: I just decided to go with pewter errants and Knights exemplar over the plastic options.





TIN FOREVER!!!

[5-Cents]

@Murk
You seem to have misunderstood me, I wasn't replacing SFA with Vics, just MHSF. Because Vics and SFA are for targeting different units. Also I've always thought that an Ossyan list would need more melee crunch than MHSF can provide, hence the 3 heavies (Hypnos, Banshee, Sphinx) and the Vics.

[Tick-Tock Man]

Well I did it, I bought the above list and added 2 ghost snipers and decided on getting the MHSF+UA.

[Murkhadh]

@Murk
You seem to have misunderstood me, I wasn't replacing SFA with Vics, just MHSF. Because Vics and SFA are for targeting different units. Also I've always thought that an Ossyan list would need more melee crunch than MHSF can provide, hence the 3 heavies (Hypnos, Banshee, Sphinx) and the Vics.

I think you misunderstood me as well. The MHSF and SFA together out-perform any other shooting combo ret can put together, you have a little of everything with that combo.

I have 2x stormfalls the mhsf and halberdiers in my Ossyan list. with a banshee hypnos and an aspis currently.

[Murkhadh]

Well I did it, I bought the above list and added 2 ghost snipers and decided on getting the MHSF+UA.

Good man.

The MHSF are probably the most unique thing Ret has. They make a lot of lists.