Considering Cryx, don't understand Necrosurgeon

[LichLordVexing]

I have Trolls, Khador, Farrow, Ret, and now I want Cryx. I see almost every McThrall list has the Necrosurgeon and keep reading about how amazing the model is. I understand that it brings Mc's back to life, but I think I'm missing how it's so good. The thralls are fairly terrible in terms of DEF and ARM so most of them should be dying every turn, maybe the entire unit against ranged attackers. At best that's 3 returned thralls overall, how is that good?

Like I said, I know I've gotta be missing an important aspect, but I'm having trouble discerning what it is.

[Kuwanger23]

You can bring back up to three a turn facing any way you want AFTER you have moved up the surgeon her 6". That is a big threat range. Also you can stack them. Mat 5 pow 15 might not seem like much but with pSkarre they are rolling three dice to hit and are pow 20 on feat turn to boot. Also she is taking a surgeon to help heal her after feat which is just added bonus. How is bringing back 3 models a turn not good? Deneghra makes mech thralls punch hard too. Terminus uses them as a tarpit as they gain tough and come back and he sac pawns to them. Keep in mind they are a 5 point unit. Even if you max them out and take all three brute thralls and take 2 surgeons to bring back six a turn that is still only 12 points total! Also you can take more than one unit of mech thralls. But in the end I don't run them first wave because they do die. I run satyxis or something faster than them first wave. Even black banes to tie things up. I guess if your meta is cygnar and ret gun lines than yeah up to 10 might be able to be killed a turn but that means you literally just threw them at your opponent to die.

[Borkdabasher]

never underestimate mcthralls, as they are in the book they arnt much to look at, applied in the right circumstances and they wreck face.

[Kuwanger23]

Just the other day Kharchev on the final table of a tournament was faced with boosted to hit pow 20 Thralls. Yeah. Well the hell divers got him first but still.

[LichLordVexing]

I think the way I'm looking at it is that I get 3 back per turn, but then I only have those 3 the next turn, and one left after that. I know that won't always be the case as more than that will survive, but that is my thought process on it. It does make more sense now to run them as a 2nd wave though.

If you use Black Banes as a tar pit, do you just run them b2b with the enemy, or do you actually attack too? I know this is probably a stupid question, but I'd think having them stay incorp would be better than not, and if anything moves through them then yay free strikes galore!

[Harvester]

I don't use the surgeon much either.. Too much shooting and aoe where I play.. I take 2-3 units of mechs and stuff them in opponents face as a diversion

[Kuwanger23]

If your opponent is not prepared with magic attacks then black banes are great. You would run them not only in b2b but into their unit where room allows. Free strikes equals more black banes.

[philipcryx]

Full unit of McThralls and Surgeon is a total of 14 models (3 of those grunts). in order for your opponent to kill all of them they pretty much have had to spend an entire turn and send alot for resource after a 7 point unit. there is a high chance that the surgeon and one mcthrall will survive, this really all depends on the list you are facing, then you have 4 mcthralls and a surgeon that should really be in charge range, 3 more you had last turn. all the while you have the rest of your army head down range. my 2 cents

[Kuwanger23]

I see you have Hoarlock as your Avatar. I too play trolls. Trolls are the most expensive faction to play money wise. Cryx is the second most. Enjoy your empty wallet, I know I do

[daoloth]

From my standpoint anything that improves the durability of mechanithralls is a good thing. As it increases the chance of them hitting melee.

Even if they don't you have most likely kept more than their points worth of models distracted dealing with them while you get other threats to your opponent into position.

Another thing worth remembering about the Necrosurgeon is it can heal warrior models. Not something I use often but sometimes it can be handy.

[Decade]

I think you underestimate the psychological impact the surgeon has on your opponent. When a surgeon brings back 3 mechanithralls, its demoralizing, because your opponent spent resources killing the thralls, and now they're back.

Also, don't discount their ability to heal damage. With tanking casters like Terminus and Venethrax or masochist casters like the Skarres, having a healer around that doesn't require them to spend focus is big. When I'm running Terminus, I almost always try to include surgeons, even if I'm not using mcthralls, simply because being able to heal him is so damn powerful.

[LichLordVexing]

I see you have Hoarlock as your Avatar. I too play trolls. Trolls are the most expensive faction to play money wise. Cryx is the second most. Enjoy your empty wallet, I know I do

I'm honestly loving trolls, but I don't own a full list yet for any lock. I only have 2 Heavy kits w/ Rok upgrade kit, warpack, full fenns + UA, SSC, pDoomy, eDoomy, and Jarl. I still need KSB + SSE, Mulg, EBDT, Fell Caller, and Trollses at the very least. So rather than spend a million dollars finishing my Trolls, I'll just continue to proxy what I need and pick up another small Cryx list in the mean time.

As for the Surgeon, I see how it'd be useful to heal a caster, but I'm still not sold on their usefulness with McThralls. Actually, I think it's that I don't see mcthralls as a good unit in general. Their points cost is the only attractive thing for me, so maybe they're whats warping my view on the Surgeon. I'd definitely take a unit with Terminus but that's about it.

[Scottl1]

lol One thing I've noticed is that many cryx players love mcthralls and many outside of cryx think they're weak on paper because of the things in faction. I had a buddy who plays trolls having problems like other factions infantry because he was used to 8 health box tough infantry. lol As a cryx player I never expect any of my stuff to live and i sacrifice my stuff on the regular to get Terminus to a caster or whatever my goal is. Sometime you just have to bile thrall your own stuff for a egaspy feat if your opponent isnt doin it right.

[GreenJello]

As for the Surgeon, I see how it'd be useful to heal a caster, but I'm still not sold on their usefulness with McThralls. Actually, I think it's that I don't see mcthralls as a good unit in general. Their points cost is the only attractive thing for me, so maybe they're whats warping my view on the Surgeon.

It really depends on how you feel about running a swarm list.

McThralls are swarmmers, and the surgeon can make them practically unstoppable. Running 3x McThrall Units + 6 Brutes + 2 Surgeons has caused a number of local players to avoid playing me. (True story)

It's just a very rude list, because it requires the other player to bring something that can reliably kill TONs of infantry. While DEF 12/ARM 12 is far from the best def stats, they're pretty good on a 3/5 unit, since your opponent IS going to miss. Avg MAT is 6, Avg POW is 10 on infantry so, they're going to miss hitting 30% of the time, and then 1/36 to kill. Using Jacks or beasts is against them is full of win for you, since 90% of the beasts/jacks in the game can't kill enough to make their points back.

Then the surgeon units allow you to put BACK 6 dead thralls in a ton of useful places. This means you'll loose several, then bring them back, lose them again, bring them back, lose them, and so on. You can potentially recycle the same McThrall 3-4 times in the course of the game, as long as you don't lose the Surgeons.

The big achillies heel of the unit is high DEF, which can effect their MAT 5, but just everything else is going to fall to either the combo strike, or 2x attacks. Even the MAT 5 is fixable with a number of different Cryx casters, who either buff the unit, or debuff the opponent's unit.

[Drzombieface]

Never, NEVER underestimate Mechanithralls

I keep tabs of what they've killed for personal battle report things and stuff.

Warjacks/Warbeasts:

-Behemoth x3
-Beast 09 x2
-Destroyer x1
-Berserker x1
-Spriggan x1

-Thunderhead x1
-Stormblade x2
-Triumph x1
-Gallant x1
-Defender x1
-Centurion x1

-Crusader x4
-Guardian x1
-Castigator x2
-Avatar x1

-Pheonix x2
-Hydra x3
-Manticore x1
-Griffon x2

-Nomad x1
-Mariner x1
-Freebooter x1
-Gunbunnies x3

-WW Stalker x1
-Ghetorix x1
-Megalith x1
-Gnarlhorn x2
-Woldwarden x2
-Woldwatcher x1
-Wold Guardian x1

Units:

-Assault Kommandos
-WGI
-WGR
-MoW Shocktroopers/Demo Corp
-Greylords
-Mechaniks

-Stormblades
-Stormguard
-Long Gunners

-Cinerators
-KE
-Errants

-HG Halberdiers
-Sentinels
-Invictors
-Heavy Rifle Team

Solos:

-Drakhun
-Koldun Lord
-Fenris

-Stormsmiths

-Vilmon

Battle Engines:

-Storm Strider
-Wraith Engine (He got influenced and punched my WE in the back for 1 damage, enough to finish it.)

[blakeh1]

Many people I play against are quite familiar with how to deal with the thralls and most lists I face are able to wipe out a unit from range before seeing combat. They are fairly easy to hit and kill in droves (but hey, they are a 3/5 unit so I don't expect otherwise).

Sac Pawn is fairly useless since most times you keeping the necorsurgeon far enough away from the mechanithralls so it is not taking AOE splash over, plus it is often easire to take out the mechanithralls directly neutering the necrosurgeon. You can only bring back mechanithralls if there is a mechanithrall unit still remaining on the table.

On occassion in my Terminus listz, tough rolls sometimes really pay off and I am left with at least one still alive so I can pop out 3 more which is very handy.

More often than not though I wind up with a necrosurgeon sitting there with 10 useless corpse tokens.

Against melee-centric armies however, it is usually a different story, and the mechanithralls just keep coming back.

If you really want to play up the regeneration factor I think you will be most successful taking at least 2 if not 3 mechanithrall units (as you can hang at least one unit back and replenish it with the dying one) and at least 2 necrosurgeons (so your popping 6 out per turn, not 3)

Someday I'll have that many mechanithralls, right now I don't. So yes, the necrosurgeon replenishment is often not quite as good as it would seem on paper

One advantage with including the necrosurgeon even if using one unit, is it forces your opponent to have to spend his resources killing the entire unit, otherwise, they start coming back, and once they get stuck in combat with one or two hanging back it can start to really cause problems when 3 a turn start popping out

[Scottl1]

If you run wrathe, wraith engine and an incorpeal thing like say the pistol wraith you can raise at least one squads arm effectively by 4. My meta has a new found hate for wrathe especially in a termie list. lol

[Creid]

As for the Surgeon, I see how it'd be useful to heal a caster, but I'm still not sold on their usefulness with McThralls. Actually, I think it's that I don't see mcthralls as a good unit in general. Their points cost is the only attractive thing for me, so maybe they're whats warping my view on the Surgeon. I'd definitely take a unit with Terminus but that's about it.

McThralls suck, by themselves. Low defensive stats means they die to any kind of incoming fire, and low MAT means they struggle hitting once they get to the target, unless you're a Khadorian heavy.

But, McThralls are never by themselves. In their own weird way, they're kind of the embodiment of Cryx. Cryx is all about pairing up models to achieve maximum deadly effect against a single target of opportunity. McThralls need to be looked at in the context of our warcasters, utility models like Warwitch Sirens and the Withershadow Combine, cheap and fast light jacks who can slam models or arc node anywhere on the board you need, etc. To be sure, mechanithralls don't fit in every list. The casters I use them with personally are: pDenny, eDenny, pSkarre (sometimes), and Terminus. (pDenny and Terminus get the most use out of them, in my opinion.) Several posters have already mentioned how pSkarre runs them well: Dark Guidance + STR boost from her feat. It's good, but honestly, they have to stay in her control area and it ends up feeling cluttered and AOE vulnerable to me. With pDenny, you'll have Crippling Grasp and her feat to give them an effective MAT boost (which they need) and a POW boost (which is icing on the cake, really). A standard pDenny list spends a lot of points on arc nodes to be able to put those debuffs on the field where she wants them, so being able to save points on troops is a good thing.

As to the survivability of the unit: I've had entire McThrall units wiped off the board by a single turn of shooting, I won't deny it. But it doesn't happen often, surprisingly. Usually range is an issue. The speed of McThralls usually means the opponent is only going to get one turn of shooting at them if you've judged your range right. Usually you can just run the McThralls forward into melee range and wait the turn for your opponent to wish his ranged models were better at melee... usually. (*glares at Gun Mages under eCaine and at Knights Errant in general...*) But if you're worried about it, just hang one or two McThralls back. Hell - and some would consider this cheesy - remember, they're undead, and there's very little consequence for a McThrall who's not currently participating to leave it's unit's CMD range. Keep one WAAAAY back, and if the unit leader dies, it becomes the new unit leader, and the Necrosurgeon refills the unit.

[Warlordtheft]

Keep in mind the max distance from the front line to the back trooper can be 12". Long gunners have a range of 14". So more than likely unless the unit ends its move 2" away from the long-gunners. However this does not take into account any spells/abilities like snipe.

[GreenJello]

McThralls suck, by themselves. Low defensive stats means they die to any kind of incoming fire, and low MAT means they struggle hitting once they get to the target, unless you're a Khadorian heavy.

Honestly, this is the way it is with most of the infantry in the game.

Mat 6, DEF 13 is pretty much average. McThralls are 1 less in each stat. OTOH, they're also 3/5 with 2 attacks or 1 POW 15, at this price they're a bargain.

Also, Long Gunners will absolutely MURDER infantry they can see and touch. However, this is about par for the system, which makes killing things very very easy. LGs are also 10 for 10, McThralls are 5 for 10, so the LGs need to kill 20 to make their points back. This usually won't happen, even if they stand still, at RAT 7, they still 16% of the time, which means that they're going to miss a couple. Then the surgeons adds back in 6 McThralls, and it's bye bye LGs.

[Harvester]

Fun list I've played a lot is

Deneghra1
2 x Deathripper
Skarlock
Warwitch
10 Thralls w. 3 brutes
10 Thralls w. 3 brutes
10 Thralls w. 3 brutes
Surgeon
Surgeon

[Swatcoolice]

Fun list I've played a lot is

Deneghra1
2 x Deathripper
Skarlock
Warwitch
10 Thralls w. 3 brutes
10 Thralls w. 3 brutes
10 Thralls w. 3 brutes
Surgeon
Surgeon

See i must have misunderstood i thought brutes were FA 3...

[milothewise]

You guys are all explaining this wrong. Watch Dawn of the Dead. Then read the Necrosurgeon again. Rinse and repeat until it all makes sense.

@Swat - Each unit of Mcthralls can add 1, 2, or 3 brutes, which counts against field allowance once. So you can attach up to 3 Brutes up to their field allowance of 3.

[juckto]

See i must have misunderstood i thought brutes were FA 3...

The weapon attachment is FA 3.
The weapon attachment may have up to two additional brutes added to each one.

[GreenJello]

See i must have misunderstood i thought brutes were FA 3...

The Brutes are also really Brutal, and at 1 pt they're a bargain. Not so much at $17 a model, but still. They fix a number of the problems that the McThralls have including:

1) Tramples (can't trample med bases)
2) Hitting (Brute's Mat 6)
3) Getting shot (Brute is armor 14 w/ 8 boxes, which means he takes 2-3 shots to kill)
4) Wrecking face (Pow 15 is nice POW 19 is incredible on a 1 point infantry model)

I honestly can't think of a infantry model in the game with a higher natural POW. Natural meaning on it's own.

[various]

It's all been said, but there's a lot to be said for a never ending swarm of Mechthralls: they'll do damage, demoralise your opponent, and are enough of a threat so that your opponent has to factor them into any plans. Remember that old saying about throwing enough **** at a wall and some will stick! As long as just one Mechthrall survives you can keep adding three extra to the unit easch turn. The Necrosurgeon alos gets Corpse tokens from living enemy models in range so you can add to the Mechthrall unit even if nobody has died yet. As an added bonus the Necrosurgeon can also heal multi wound models which is pretty useful in it's own right, it's certainly a far better option for healing your 'Caster than spending Focus.

[Decade]

The Necrosurgeon alos gets Corpse tokens from living enemy models in range so you can add to the Mechthrall unit even if nobody has died yet.

Actually, the surgeon gets corpse tokens from all living models that die in range of the unit's corpse snatcher ability, not just enemies. So if you're running satyxis, ogrun, bloodgourgers, or living mercs, you get corpses from them too.

[Swatcoolice]

The weapon attachment is FA 3.
The weapon attachment may have up to two additional brutes added to each one.

Thanks Juckto. I was confused as to how they are limited to units. I love my Brutethralls. Even if all they do is soak up a few more bullets it let's my other solo's such as the wraiths and the Siren to get into all sorts of other trouble.

Also if the Brutethralls don't die and your necrosurgeon has a spare action (ie no tokens to spend), she can attempt to heal him which is just amazing when it works :P

As a side note i would highly recommend all the Stickies at the top of the Cryx Forums for new players as all the regular poster's have written up some amazing articles including Juckto's amazingly helpfull Cryx Models and Abilities sticky as that helped me really get the nitty gritty in my head of how to use certain units to their full potential while ensuring im not cheating with the unit while i learn.

[bonesaww666]

I'm thinking 2 min units of Drudges w/Overseers and a min unit of Thralls w/ Necrosugeon, hit the enemy with the Drudges first all the while collecting Corpse Tokens and beefing up my convientiently sheltered McThralls and pile in! CMA from the Drudges makes them half decent at hammering Lights and the Overseers can obliterate infantry Hordes, pop Dennie's feat and pile in your ignorantly large unit of Thralls! Commence maniacal laughter as all goes perfectly according to plan! (well that's the plan anyways...)