Vlad3 and Kreoss3 feat?

[Marth]

After reading all this, I love the feat. It's pure goodyness to me.
And I'm fine with Infernal Machine. Just as Borka, Barny and Nareesh are with Iron Flesh. Or Xerxis with Inhospitable Ground. Or Constance with Transference. Or Sturm with Watcher. Or Venny with Lamentation. Or Vayl with Purification.

There are no signature spells.

[rivenwyrm]

Actually... I think the feat could be great for Uhlans hitting a single hard target. Because with side step they can get out of each others' way, allowing you to pile more of them onto the same thing.

I think the inclusion of warjacks for the feat is simply a way for us to finally use Drago's imprint. I'm pretty sure he'll be a single warjack caster, because we got our warjack caster in Harkevich. Harkevich is (IMO) actually a Colossals release that got bumped forward to make room for Vlad3 due to storyline stuff. I think that's why many peeps (including myself) have had some confusion about him.

[quindraco]

@quindraco: I think side step can only be triggered by initial attacks and berserk attack cannot trigger it. Fenris can still kill quite a lot under this feat but not that amazing~

I just checked the errata, which is the only document I can access from here, and it can't possible be accurate, since according to it you can side step off of an initial ranged attack. While I find the mental image of a MoW Drakhun using a gun shot to step sideways 2" as funny as the next Khadoran, I suspect I am missing something major from the rest of the rule. I also don't have Berserk in front of me. I will check both when I get home and get back to you.

[ReaverQueen]

I think Berserk is "immediately" so you can't make a Sidestep move before your next Berserk attack comes in.

[Ganso]

I was hoping Vlad_3 would get some Cavalry love, and I guess the feat suggest that he will

It's not a great feat, but usually casters with tame feats have a better spell list and abilities, and that's what I'm hoping we're seeing here

We all know that cavalry models are awesome on the charge turn, and Vlad's feat just gives our cavalry a second opportunity to charge again next turn (and avoid swinging with a pathetic 0.5 inch weapon for the rest of the game )

I also agree that the feat looks to be best used early game, and those are my favorite types of feat, that way I can get it over with and concentrate on the other 4+ turns the game will last.

[Marth]

There is no reason to "think" - the rules will be precise. Actually, thinking of Butcher XP under Ravager helps. He keeps swinging as long as he keeps killing, and he will only take the step forward when everyone else is dead. If I remember right, it's sth about "(resolve stuff that lets you do extra attacks) before (resolve stuff that lets you do something else)".

And then there's also the common sense (from vague memory) saying: "If there are two rules interpretations, with one being absurdely better than the other and making you want to use it everytime - it's probably the other one."

[Esper]

I believe it's the other way around, and that active player effects that do not involve making an attack trigger before effects which do involve making an attack. Otherwise, Slaghterborne's overtake schenanigans wouldn't work.

[PG_LunarSol]

There is no reason to "think" - the rules will be precise. Actually, thinking of Butcher XP under Ravager helps. He keeps swinging as long as he keeps killing, and he will only take the step forward when everyone else is dead. If I remember right, it's sth about "(resolve stuff that lets you do extra attacks) before (resolve stuff that lets you do something else)".

It's the opposite. You have to resolve any abilities that generate additional attacks after any abilities that do not.

[Ohmen76]

I just want his spell list, maybe since he is using dark magics we'll get Dark Guidance, one can hope.

[Esper]

I'd prefer Ravager. Because a berserking Drago with Infernal Machine, Riot Run, and sidestep/sprint on the feat turn is hillarious.

[DoktorVivi]

As someone who doesn't play against Cryx, what does Infernal Machine do?

[quindraco]

Couple quick notes - just got home and verified:

1) Berserk attacks are additional attacks, which is a game term - by definition, they are not initial.
2) Side step is initials or power attacks only. This means you can NOT side step off of berserk swings, and it ALSO means warjacks cannot side step off of bought swings.
3) Side step at no point specifies melee only - a model with a ranged or magic attack and side step can side step off of it, provided the attack is an initial (such as a Drakhun's gun) or a special (such as Frostbite, but we don't have any Greylord cav).

[quindraco]

Couple quick notes - just got home and verified:

1) Berserk attacks are additional attacks, which is a game term - by definition, they are not initial.
2) Side step is initials or power attacks only. This means you can NOT side step off of berserk swings, and it ALSO means warjacks cannot side step off of bought swings.
3) Side step at no point specifies melee only - a model with a ranged or magic attack and side step can side step off of it, provided the attack is an initial (such as a Drakhun's gun) or a special (such as Frostbite, but we don't have any Greylord cav).

[Ohmen76]

Correct on beserk attack, never stayed more side steps for. What I am saying is you can make first initial and not move till beserk attacks or targets are gone, then side step to more targets take second initial attack generate more beserk swings, then side step from second initial hit, and finally sprint away to safety. All the while generating command checks as well.

[Havock]

As someone who doesn't play against Cryx, what does Infernal Machine do?

Superiority without the defense buff but the model causes terror.
Slightly worse, although the extra DEF is not really that important for our walking houses.

[Ganso]

The more I think about it, the more I like it. I imagine being able to charge the Avatar, smack him around a bit, then retreat without suffering a counter punch, plus I believe Gaze of Menoth only applies during normal movement? (if not then feel free to ignore this )

[rivenwyrm]

Sprint only triggers if you destroy the model, I believe. So only one Uhlan will have the privilege of escaping. As to Infernal Machine vs Superiority, the DEF buff of superiority is actually very powerful on Drago, since it puts him at 13, right at the end of the unboosted hit curve.

[Digilante]

Superiority without the defense buff but the model causes terror.

And, importantly, is not an Upkeep spell.

[Trihnicus]

Why would this not work wonderfully with Warjacks? Drago has the Mat/affinity to make his 2 initials stick and you could throw in a second warjack to receive the Infernal Machine buff. Since his feat has no mention of battlegroups you could Jackmarshall more Jacks into his regular army and they would ALL get sprint and sidestep. It would also do very odd things in a Multi-Warcaster environment.

The Kovnik would give Juggernauts and Berzerkers and Kodiaks and Marauders and.... the Mat they need to stick their attacks in and pull off some nice movement.

And, importantly, is not an Upkeep spell.

Both spells are Upkeep... to what are you referring?

[ReaverQueen]

Devil Dogs won't work for Khador.

[TheHydrogenator]

Spriggan with this feat is going to be scary as hell. Assuming some sort of S&P effect coupled with Infernal Machine and Side Step there is almost nothing stopping him from bulldozing his way to the enemy caster and then unleashing his MAT 8 spear on them

[Frege]

Best jack under rumoured feat will be Kodiak. Charge jack/beast----> hit, side step, hit, side step into rear arc. Chain attack then weapon lock.

[maddermax]

If you didn't see it over in the Ret Forums, there's a spoiler about Hyperions gun:

RNG 10 POW 18 AOE 5" Critical Consume (On a Critical hit, any small based non-warcaster/non-warlock model hit is RFP).

That could be extremely bad for some of our combo's - jack support will get eaten if not positioned careful. On a critical hit, Souls wouldn't be availiable to Reclaimers/HR/Testament, possibility of some of our very resilient models getting one shotted (Exemplar Senechal and Covenant). It's also one more good reason to not take the Harbinger/pirates list against Ret, of course, as it would bypass tough rolls on the Crit.

[KhaosSpectyr]

Devil Dogs won't work for Khador.

always makes me sad i think its cuz Sam is mad about the art in the Khador book where Big-B is crushin her boys.

[quindraco]

If you didn't see it over in the Ret Forums, there's a spoiler about Hyperions gun:

RNG 10 POW 18 AOE 5" Critical Consume (On a Critical hit, any small based non-warcaster/non-warlock model hit is RFP).

That could be extremely bad for some of our combo's - jack support will get eaten if not positioned careful. On a critical hit, Souls wouldn't be availiable to Reclaimers/HR/Testament, possibility of some of our very resilient models getting one shotted (Exemplar Senechal and Covenant). It's also one more good reason to not take the Harbinger/pirates list against Ret, of course, as it would bypass tough rolls on the Crit.

There's just no plausible way its gun is this good. Take a careful look at it. Not only would it be, what, the ONLY 5" aoe gun in the game, but it would also be more powerful than a WGI mortar on delivery, AND critically consume everything in the AOE. It's seriously unreasonably powerful. Heck, you could wipe out a unit of Zealots *with their minifeat up* with that. There's no way in hell a gun like that would ever be put into the game.

[Octavius_Maximus]

There's just no plausible way its gun is this good. Take a careful look at it. Not only would it be, what, the ONLY 5" aoe gun in the game, but it would also be more powerful than a WGI mortar on delivery, AND critically consume everything in the AOE. It's seriously unreasonably powerful. Heck, you could wipe out a unit of Zealots *with their minifeat up* with that. There's no way in hell a gun like that would ever be put into the game.

Why not?

1. Trolls have a 5" AOE gun on their War Wagon already
2. Its on a probably 20 point chassis who may not have very much else beyond it thats very special.

[KhaosSpectyr]

if ret gets that gun and all we get is Crit dev, and 4 pow6 covering fires i'll literally crap myself from rage.

[Alexwheeler]

How about behemoth? He has 4 initial attacks, charge 1st fist, move 2nd fist, move 1st shot, move 2nd shot and buy attacks on caster!

That's a 9.5" charge with IM + 8" with side steps = 17.5" threat range!!!!! each time moving models out of the way to his caster very nice!!!

[Kommissar Golovko]

Best jack under rumoured feat will be Kodiak. Charge jack/beast----> hit, side step, hit, side step into rear arc. Chain attack then weapon lock.

I think it will be Behemoth. At least 4 initial attacks. That's around 15" potential threat range for Behemoth (charge 7" then potentially 2" for each fist and bombard which can destroy a model).

[PG_Caecus Scius]

Yes... this is what i wanted from him. Punch in hard, retreat and then do it again. Against a unit of infantry, you can wreck em and get out. Against a jack you can come in, hit with reach, and then move 2" away for a total of 4" away from the enemy. Jam 1 in there and leave it, to keep them in place, and the unit recharges next turn.

Also you potentially have cool assassinations from things like Fenris, and the Drakkhun is going to ROCK.

[Octavius_Maximus]

I think a unit of Uhlans are still great, because you can charge them in to strategic points, and kill what you hit (Mat 6, Pow 13+Mat 8,Pow 16 usually kills stuff) and then escape, basically getting a bunch of free kills.

[quindraco]

Why not?

1. Trolls have a 5" AOE gun on their War Wagon already
2. Its on a probably 20 point chassis who may not have very much else beyond it thats very special.

Ah! I didn't know the War Wagon had that. But still, I find it awfully hard to believe any faction would get a gun that good, let alone a faction with Ravyn in it. A POW 18 5" AOE is incredibly good, but critical consume is just plain broken on said AOE. The only way to win against it is to not field small-based models, which means Cygnar is up the creek without a paddle, and we're not terribly far behind.

[thrasymacus]

Did I miss this? Isn't a big part of the Feat Vlad himself? 13" threat range, probably POW 15 or so lance attack with some kind of special ability, side step, flail, sidestep, do whatever, then back peddle 8".

That's quite the assassination run coming from Vlad himself. The rest might be gravy. If he boosts the initial flail attack roll he'll still have 6 focus to buy 2 fully boosted attacks, or some other combination. Tall in the saddle with a lance might see some clever use as well. The lance better be good if he only gets to make charge attacks with it.

[ScottEBJJ]

Ah! I didn't know the War Wagon had that. But still, I find it awfully hard to believe any faction would get a gun that good, let alone a faction with Ravyn in it. A POW 18 5" AOE is incredibly good, but critical consume is just plain broken on said AOE. The only way to win against it is to not field small-based models, which means Cygnar is up the creek without a paddle, and we're not terribly far behind.

The sheer amount of DOOM in your post is staggering. Nothing about that gun is broken on the face of it. And in no way does it invalidate the use of small based models even remotely. Are you really serious with this level of reaction? Because it's so far out there I don't believe it.

I just don't believe you really think it's that over the top.

[x3tsniper]

When I told my buddy about that gun I just laughed at him for a minute. I hate his senneschal so much.

A couple things to note, these spoilers that we are getting are apparently from some play testing stuff not from the book itself, so take that with a grain of salt. Things could be different.
I also recently started playing lots of medium base models. Critical consume can go die in a fire.


Also, as far as the ranged attack business, the feat itself specifically stated side step was off melee only attacks.

Feat: Charge of the Horse Lords // While in Vladimirʼs control area, friendly Faction warjacks and cavalry models gain Side Step and Sprint. Charge of the Horse Lords lasts for one turn. (When a model with Side Step hits an enemy model with an initial melee attack or a non-power attack special attack, after the attack is resolved it can advance 2˝. A model with Side Step cannot be targeted by free strikes during this movement.) (At the end of its activation, if it destroyed one or more enemy models with melee attacks during its activation, a model with Sprint can make a full advance.)

[wargolem]

I just hope vlad3 gets superiority

[Ganso]

When did they errata Side Step? My Kayazzy Eliminators clearly say "an initial attack". It's very uncharacteristic of PP to make these types of exceptions to established rules, they love their keywords.

[whats82]

Scott: it's quindraco.

On the feat : that it does not offer free charge for warjacks seems strange. Did they really think 1~2 focus bonus breaks Vlad ?

The artwork of Vlad3 makes me think he's not using the lance rule and instead have a reach spear, hopefully that's the case, lance is a terrible rule.

[Marth]

Oh... but if I got it the wrong way - then why again does the Butcher keep killing things before he moves?

[Flak Maniak]

Feat seems like it really could use free charges for warjacks. Otherwise, and probably even if it has that, to be honest, it seems like it'll be there for "that one 'jack" which will destroy the opponent's 'caster on feat turn or whatever. Seems a little Strakhov-like with a Spriggan, which is cool.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that it would be much more in-flavor for the Butcher to have Infernal Machine than Vlad? Butcher is a terror, and a spell called "Infernal Machine" just kinda makes sense on such a madman.

Anyway, while he seems like he has half-decent 'jack support, which is great, what I really want to see from the book is good non-warcaster 'jack support. Ideally some focus-hurling guys. (And not power booster because nobody can convince me that 'jacks with one focus on them can get the job done.)