Sceptical about Colossals/Gargantuans

[jwai]

In the past, people's fears about new things like Battle Engines were eventually allayed, but I'm not entirely sure if the desire for increasingly larger things is necessarily a good thing. Just because things worked out last time does not necessarily mean that they will work out this time. I joke that the storyline will end as soon as one of the factions discovers nuclear fission.

I understand that Colossals are something that PP has wanted to implement for many years now, but what assurances can PP now provide that they won't completely break the game?

I'm not particularly keen about the possibility that I must take the latest and greatest $130-150 monstrosity just to maintain parity with everyone else who will. It smells like what other game companies have tried to do.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I'm not particularly keen about the possibility that I must take the latest and greatest $130-150 monstrosity just to maintain parity with everyone else who will. It smells like what other game companies have tried to do.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not really convinced that the profit margin of a Colossal/Gargantuan will be significant after factoring in productions costs. That would mean that PP's incentive would be for them to remain supplimental centerpieces that expand the appeal of the game to the playerbase interested in really big, really stompy stuff, without undercutting the bread-and-butter-secret-sauce.

Extend appeal to the 'Timmys' of Tabletop Wargaming, if you will.

(The Johnys are largely already taken care of. There's a little Spike in all of us. And Doug Seacat handles Vorthos pretty well.)

-s&s

[Aya]

Looking at the rules for the Stormwall I can say these things aren't too scary. Lots of boxes, yes. Hard to kill with just plain old infantry, eh sure. But I really don't think you'll need another Colossal to wreck another Colossal.

[MediumYellow]

Since when are we afraid of warmachine being about giant robots?



Its really difficult to make a jack list work. Even mortenebra, that best jack caster in the game in my opinion, isn't very good compared to the rest of her faction (not that she is bad, she just isn't terminus or denegra).

Also, there is the fact there isn't a dramatic change in the money to points ratio going on here. I spent a whole lot of money on my 13 point winterguard death star. I think at least 100 $. That unit is considered "must have" in my faction. A 140$ model that takes up 19 points is on the same level.

Honestly it seems like people who post these things have never played the game.

AS FOR HORDES:

We have no idea what is going on with those beasts.

[pridefall]

Like every other release, they aren't necessary to be competitive. Every army has an answer to them, and they aren't impossibly hard to kill. Since the game is "balanced" -- or, at least, moreso than other games -- there's no need to worry about them becoming "must-haves" at the point level that they're meant to be played at.

Time will tell if they break the game at lower levels, however.

[x3tsniper]

I had a single demolition corp model do 18 damage to Deathjack. I am not to terribly worried about these things at armor 19-22. Oo

[Slice]

Since when are we afraid of warmachine being about giant robots?

This is just the perfect quote.

That said i am a bit worried from a Cryx POV since nearly all our lists are tailored to kill big stuff with infantry and the Colossals are supposedly crazy good against infantry swarms.
Also the Stormwall continues the trend of Cygnar beeing my worst matchup.

The other factions are better off than that though, most can even find a way to turn this thing to a wreck marker in one turn quite easily.

[John of Arc]

You have PP's post-Mk. II track record as your assurance that they won't be a must-have combined with the fact that these have even more care put into them than a normal release. You also need to keep in mind that PP has always put the game first over selling models, because that's what's healthier in the long run. If they sell 100% more Stormwalls but lose a bunch of players, then that's a loss for PP. Games Workshop has always put selling models before making a great game, and they're hemorrhaging players to Warmachine. There's always PP's word, as well, but if the previous two arguments don't convince you then a forum post shouldn't, either (unless you just don't agree with me, which is fair :P )

[Blighted Tyrant]

DOOM!

Honestly it is going to be no different than the emergence of Battle Engines. People will use them probably proxy them to see how they run, they might get a lot of table time when they first drop, but as soon as the factions figure out a way of killing them (they are just two Warjacks in my opinion) they will be returned to the shelf in favour of a standard load out.

I think we will see more Unbound games with these bad boys running around, the odd tournament list but hey tournaments aren't suppose to be easy other wise where's the fun?

If you're 100% sure that Colossal's will destroy the meta then feel free to run for the life boats and put on some Celine Dion while your at it.

[lastspartacus]

I share extreme feelings of dread, but I'm trying to be patient until I see the big picture. As it is, Mercenaries have very little chance in a balanced list vs the likes of the stormwall without taking galleon. Hoping new book has some toys to help, or at least a basic steelhead mechanic. Geez.

[maddermax]

I thought once the Stormwall card was shown, everyone would calm down a little, as it was obviously not a broken model. Powerful? Yes, but for it's points cost, certainly not broken in any way. What it does is change the meta game slightly - it makes multi-wound infantry more useful, makes having a couple of anti-jack heavies more useful, and it makes single wound infantry a little bit more fragile. That's all fine, and you'll find that every faction has the tools to deal with them anyway. Even Mercs will find a Rhulic jack under strength of granite will tear through these things like paper.

[PG_Snakeman]

I understand that Colossals are something that PP has wanted to implement for many years now, but what assurances can PP now provide that they won't completely break the game?

That's easy. PP can provide the same assurance now that they won't break the game that they did with character 'jacks, infantry, battle engines, warcaster attachments, or even the first new models of Escalation. That is to say, no assurance at all and every assurance in the world at the same time.

PP likely makes more of a profit selling me four units of bane thralls than it does selling me a Karken or two, so they have a vested interest in keeping the game balanced so that I continue to play and keeping those more numerous (and thus more profitable and a more stable revenue stream) models viable on the tabletop. Thus far, they have not disappointed or show confidence in them to have been misplaced and I think it's a safe bet that they won't start now. If anything, I'd be more worried that these models will be under-powered for their points in an attempt to make sure that they don't "break the game", but even if that happens I'll still have a beautiful desk toy.

Either way, there's nothing that's going to be changed now so the best course is not to stress too much and watch and wait. If all else fails, just keep repeating the anti-colossal mantra: black oil, black oil, black oil, black oil........ It really is the great equalizer.

[Tyras]

I'm of the wait and see school of thought. It seems that there will need to be some change in tactics to keep the bigg'uns from eating up infantry, but until we see them on the table, it's all theorysmithing.

[Trygle]

Well, I for one am happy to welcome our giant robot overlords.

I am not too happy to welcome the +$100 price tag.

The easiest way to deal with a Colossal.... is to bring your own :P
The ones that arereally gonna be scratching their heads are the ones that can't afford or don't want to buy one. Like me ;D

[Slice]

The easiest way to deal with a Colossal.... is to bring your own :P

The easiest way is probably an enraged Bronzeback under Xerxis feat.
Or - if it is one without covering fire - a whole lot of Banes.

[Slice]

slow forum made me doublepost

[Mercykiller]

Colossals make huge targets that scream "debuff me! Send that unit of weaponmasters at me!" With ARM being the same range as jacks, they're just easier to hit jacks (bigger bases) that you can get more folks into that are harder to hide (and gets no DEF benefits from cover etc.). They're easier to stop up too; ever been ticked off your jack or trooper couldn't quite fit through somewhere? Try a huge base Yes, they carry a lot of firepower and health boxes, but at that price tag they'd damn well better. Every one spoiled looks like two jacks taped together, which is actually pretty perfect.

Now if you were relying solely on heavy DEF infantry to carry the day you're ... oh wait, no you're not. Run around the Colossals' big butts and kill the caster cowering behind him

[quindraco]

Colossals make huge targets that scream "debuff me! Send that unit of weaponmasters at me!" With ARM being the same range as jacks, they're just easier to hit jacks (bigger bases) that you can get more folks into that are harder to hide (and gets no DEF benefits from cover etc.). They're easier to stop up too; ever been ticked off your jack or trooper couldn't quite fit through somewhere? Try a huge base Yes, they carry a lot of firepower and health boxes, but at that price tag they'd damn well better. Every one spoiled looks like two jacks taped together, which is actually pretty perfect.

Now if you were relying solely on heavy DEF infantry to carry the day you're ... oh wait, no you're not. Run around the Colossals' big butts and kill the caster cowering behind him

I completely agree with you, but it's worth noting, I think, just how fantastic Stormwall will be at getting shot in the back by ranged or magic attacks that generate electro-leaps, vaporising a lot of your high DEF infantry on the approach. Maintaining low DEF in melee is actually beneficial for tricks like that, which I am also expecting Menoth to employ to excellent effect. Retribution, Cryx, Khador, and Mercenaries have a much lower prevalence of effects like that, especially since AOEs don't synergise as well (you need a 5 incher, and even then it only reaches a little bit beyond the base). I'm excited to see how difficult it will be for me as a Khador player to get my Kayazies past Stormwall or Judicator without dying.

[quindraco]

Colossals make huge targets that scream "debuff me! Send that unit of weaponmasters at me!" With ARM being the same range as jacks, they're just easier to hit jacks (bigger bases) that you can get more folks into that are harder to hide (and gets no DEF benefits from cover etc.). They're easier to stop up too; ever been ticked off your jack or trooper couldn't quite fit through somewhere? Try a huge base Yes, they carry a lot of firepower and health boxes, but at that price tag they'd damn well better. Every one spoiled looks like two jacks taped together, which is actually pretty perfect.

Now if you were relying solely on heavy DEF infantry to carry the day you're ... oh wait, no you're not. Run around the Colossals' big butts and kill the caster cowering behind him

I completely agree with you, but it's worth noting, I think, just how fantastic Stormwall will be at getting shot in the back by ranged or magic attacks that generate electro-leaps, vaporising a lot of your high DEF infantry on the approach. Maintaining low DEF in melee is actually beneficial for tricks like that, which I am also expecting Menoth to employ to excellent effect. Retribution, Cryx, Khador, and Mercenaries have a much lower prevalence of effects like that, especially since AOEs don't synergise as well (you need a 5 incher, and even then it only reaches a little bit beyond the base). I'm excited to see how difficult it will be for me as a Khador player to get my Kayazies past Stormwall or Judicator without dying.

[Mercykiller]

Damn the boards are slow, ye olde double-posts happening all over lol.

Yup, I agree shooting it in the back is a viable tactic, but that's always been the case. I also agree that with some army builds it will take a little more thought to smack down Colossals (heck, I'm about to start Circle myself and they're least likely to bring the right thing to the table everytime lol). At 19 points, the damn thing should be at least a slight meta-changer. We've had UAs do more for a lot less. Like when the BEs were released I get a little weary of the kneejerk reactions and the fear of change (just in general, not pointed at any posters here). Will the game change some? Yeah, and that's awesome! A game that stagnates dies. Privateer understand this. The fact they can keep coming up with these great additions without sinking the game is a testament to their creativity and rules making. They've built up a store of trust and faith over the years from us; in the case of Colossals I don't see any reason to think they've broken our trust in them. Nor do I think they're going to break the back of their cash-cow with an overly large model

[Da-Rock]

That's easy. PP can provide the same assurance now that they won't break the game that they did with character 'jacks, infantry, battle engines, warcaster attachments, or even the first new models of Escalation. That is to say, no assurance at all and every assurance in the world at the same time.

PP likely makes more of a profit selling me four units of bane thralls than it does selling me a Karken or two, so they have a vested interest in keeping the game balanced so that I continue to play and keeping those more numerous (and thus more profitable and a more stable revenue stream) models viable on the tabletop. Thus far, they have not disappointed or show confidence in them to have been misplaced and I think it's a safe bet that they won't start now. If anything, I'd be more worried that these models will be under-powered for their points in an attempt to make sure that they don't "break the game", but even if that happens I'll still have a beautiful desk toy.

Either way, there's nothing that's going to be changed now so the best course is not to stress too much and watch and wait. If all else fails, just keep repeating the anti-colossal mantra: black oil, black oil, black oil, black oil........ It really is the great equalizer.

Poor Gorman..............he will be killed top of the 2nd turn in 90% of the games now.........:-)

[ReaverQueen]

Stormwall in that Vassal game was virtually untouchable.

Sits on scenario in Temporal Barrier. Shoots with Big Guns, lays Covering Fire. Tosses out a pod every turn. Then the Stormstrider standing next to it shoots the pods at its leisure.

So you can't run to engage, and you can't charge them. The models can't be moved in any way. No infantry is going to make it through the Covering Fire. Anything getting close with Stealth is getting decimated by 2-6 electro leaps per turn. Big Guns are putting the hurt on warjacks as they try to advance.

Additionally, the poor DEF of huge based models is an -advantage-. AOEs will likely never go astray, and they automatically soak every AOE due to their base size. You don't have to worry about parking your models B2B with it, because the template can't touch them. So mechaniks or pHaley just hang out like HERPA DERP LOL.



I'd like to see the combo beat, I just haven't seen how it can be done well yet. At least, not without a list finely tuned to counter that specific matchup.

[Mercykiller]

If the same scenario can be applied/described/simulated with 2 warjacks in its place (or 2.5) then the problem isn't a Colossal one. Don't confuse the irritation that the Haleys can cause with something being inherently wrong with Colossals About the only thing unique to Colossals is the blast template placement, and BEs already do that /shrug

[quindraco]

I'd like to see the combo beat, I just haven't seen how it can be done well yet. At least, not without a list finely tuned to counter that specific matchup.

The best counter I can think of is Hunter spam under Nemo, but as you say, that's rather specifically tuned.

[ReaverQueen]

Which it can't, because with other models you can't outright destroy like normal warjacks, you at least have options to remove them in other ways. With normal jacks you can get a Kodiak up, hit it a couple of times, and then throw it away. As far as I know, you can't throw Colossals. Just little things like that make a major difference.

And of course, being a warjack makes it different from a BE as well. Having access to entirely different buffs, feats, power attacks, etc.

I'm not so much worried about the other Colossals, or even Stormwall with most other casters. It's just this one combo that has me itching to see an effective counter.


I really think the Stormwall gets a lot more out of what it is though than you'd get from 2 warjacks. I think of it as a Cyclone and Defender put together, but it's so much better than that. It's really a quite fantastic Colossal imo. Very flexible.

[ReaverQueen]

The best counter I can think of is Hunter spam under Nemo, but as you say, that's rather specifically tuned.

Hunter's shoot at what, dice -6? Not too bad. If it has AS on it though that becomes dice -3. Like I said not too bad. In theory you're going to have Eiryss, but she's relatively easy to kill off so its hard to say. In the Vassal game for example he had eEiryss against the Cygnar list, but she was killed at the top of turn 2 to a Stormcall by a Stormsmith or something. XP

[psichotykwyrm]

The easiest way to deal with a Colossal....

...Forward Kommander Sorscha's feat, followed by her bonded jack under Boundless Charge applied to its face.

Doesn't even need to be Beast-09, just about any Khador jack will do. (Though his reach weapon seals the deal.) I look forward to scrapping the big'uns with plain ol' Juggernauts.

[Lord Sessadore]

Ossyan's feat + MHSF = 55 damage applied from a 10 point unit. Add in stormfalls/invictors/jack guns to taste if they were a couple boxes short or if you've lost a couple. Say hello to your new pile of scrap metal.

[bakaryu]

Hunter's shoot at what, dice -6? Not too bad. If it has AS on it though that becomes dice -3. Like I said not too bad. In theory you're going to have Eiryss, but she's relatively easy to kill off so its hard to say. In the Vassal game for example he had eEiryss against the Cygnar list, but she was killed at the top of turn 2 to a Stormcall by a Stormsmith or something. XP

I assume you meant dice-9

Luckily with Retribution a lot of my tools can ignore any ARM buffs as well as having decent access to upkeep removal (Eiryss2) and a damage buff (A+H) as well as having access to a lot of things that are made to just mess up warjacks in general.

I can however see Kaelyssa becoming an almost must take in a tri list format just because even the possibility of facing her on the battlefield will discourage almost any warcaster from choosing a list with a colossal. Gargantuans might be another kettle of fish entirely, will have to wait and see how that pans out when we get an idea of the Mountain King should he be available tomorrow

[ReaverQueen]

Right.

Still not sure how these things overcome Temporal Barrier though. Takes a bit of the bite out of MHSF if they can't charge and they die if they get in range to attack the Colossal. Covering Fire + arching off the pod kills a lot of models, Stealth or otherwise.

Snipe LG Double Tap sounds kind of viable, but I'm not so sure you'd get that off more than once. The Stormwall walks 5", throws a pod 10", and then the Stormstrider arcs up to 4" off that pod for 19".

[bakaryu]

I am not seeing why the MHSF would want to charge the Stormwall? They roll 3d6-9 on their ranged attacks against him with an 18" threat range and ignore Arcane Shield, so you just apply Backlash (18" threat range from a Gorgon, 16" from a Phoenix assuming they are inside TB, obviously a lot more if they start outside it), Kiss from A+H if she has made it that far and just go for gold firing every gun you can find at him. Only takes 15(?) successful damage rolls and pHaley is dead, unlike normal warjacks where a few big damage rolls can mean that the caster has survived the Colossals have more than enough damage boxes for this to be a very lethal combination.

[Mercykiller]

A lot of the problems you're describing really have to do with Haley, not her army though. Adding the Colossal may exacerbate the problem, but it doesn't change the nature of it really. I do envy the Stormwall and hope the Conquest raises similar ire when we get its full rules lol.

I think the Gargantuans will cause far more waves than Colossals; wait until people realize the Woldwrath can benefit from Roots of Earth

[ReaverQueen]

I know. I'm talking pHaley + Stormwall.


MHSF... it's all going to depend on the approach. Whether or not they get hit by those lightning strikes. After seeing it in action I really think the Stormstrider + Stormwall combo is a lot better than just spamming Stormwalls.

Sounds like an interesting idea though.

[bouncymischa]

Still not sure how these things overcome Temporal Barrier though. Takes a bit of the bite out of MHSF if they can't charge and they die if they get in range to attack the Colossal. Covering Fire + arching off the pod kills a lot of models, Stealth or otherwise.

MHSF and Stormfall Archers have a RNG of 12, and if I remember correctly the Covering Fire templates are limited to a range of 10", so both units can just sit outside of Covering Fire range and shoot. Ravyn can also extend their range another 4" with Snipe. The lightning pods are a bigger issue, but still should only probably kill a few members of a unit on average. Meanwhile, even without Ossyan's feat two MHSF units can be doing an average of around 40 damage per turn to Stormwall, meaning they can likely win a battle of attrition.

[ReaverQueen]

Indeed. I'd like to see how that one plays out.

[Jestor]

Breaking News - pHaley using Temporal Barrier makes things harder to kill for melee pieces.

Also at 7 - Tartarus makes Banes better

[Wargame_junkie]

Gorman and black oil. All I have to say. He effectively shut down my Storm Strider for 2 turns before I could get the bugger.

[YabaBaga]

I think Gorman's name is going to be painted on one of those Lightnting Pods, honestly. Unless you fill up the space behind him with models, Gorman's going to take a lightning strike the turn after he applies Black Oil.

[Dacian]

2 drillers cycling strength of granite, that will do for anything

[Havock]

Every SR event I will simply take an eSorscha list that can win against those things in two ways:
1- do insane amounts of damage
2- be Team Vanguard and kill the other caster by charge-cycloning.

those who played Mass ffect 3 will understand what I mean