Judicator Trial Run

[maddermax]

Hey guys! Quick question: it is early and I don't brain well before coffee, but how are you getting the Judicator to RAT 5 on the rockets? It was my understanding that Colossals could not benefit from the Aiming bonus?

They can't benefit from the aiming bonus when they're in combat - if they're out of combat, they can. Plus, getting a reckoner shot onto an enemy gives +2 bonus as well, which would also bring the effective mat up to 5 (or 7 with aiming).

[Demeritus]

There is nothing stopping Colossals from getting the aiming bonus unless they are engaged.

[Del Fuego]

I see. Well let's assume a variable RAT between 3 and 5. One of my biggest and more corner case concern is the rare casters that can control deviations within their control area will effectively shut down 80% of our Colossal's utility just for getting out of bed.

Sure it can still spray and punch things if that is the case, but I can think of far more cost effective models in that case.

[Gaston]

Took it out last night for my first test run, list was:

eSevvy
-Judicator
-Reckoner
-Revenger
Choir (max)
Idrian Skirmishers (max)
-Chieftain and Guide
Vassal of Menoth
Vassal Mechanic
Reclaimer
Wracks

Different caster to try a bit of a different angle on the big guy. Game went south due to my lack of common sense, but overall I think that the theory is solid. Had some very good shots with the Redeemer cannons onto Boomhowler, and aced 6 of them and Ryan (B13) in a single round of shooting. That being said, I can easily see where scatters gone wrong could get very frustrating very quickly (and no doubt will for me, I normally scatter horribly). Never had the opportunity to use the flamethrowers, not sure if they'll see use often honestly; it more seems that you're either going long range or into melee with this guy.

Awareness was great on a jack with pathfinder, we played ring around the rosy with a forest, but I was just able to shoot through it at him, then charge through it on a later turn. And the bond with Passage up is a pretty solid counter to the single shot magic guns, via Ayana and Holt or Explosivo.

[Gaston]

You are going to end up with RAT 1 quite often (no Battle, no aiming, trying to shoot troops so no reckoner bonus). At least that is my experience.

Seems to be the case with me as well.

[Lalnuir]

Eye Of Menoth is a great spell. I don't want to only play with pSevvy - there are lots of other casters I would like to take with the Judicator. They don't have EoM.

You can always run some of your own troops into position and then shoot them in the back. Zealots are fairly cheap and only DEF10 if you gain the back strike bonus.
Not always worth it but helpful when you want to put your aoes where you want. Also worth it when you want to kill annoying solos like gorman or Eiryss with boosted blast damage.

Hi Raff,

You cannot get to RAT 9.

I believe he was talking about if the judicator didn't have inaccurate.

[Matthaeus]

Our jacks are priced according to what they are

That's my opinion as well. I think we don't disagree, but we're not exactly on the same page
There's no arguing the Crusader, for instance, is fairly priced. Not outstanding on his own, but an honest deal. Imagine now that its MAT and P+S were lower by 2 but its price stayed the same, with the designers' justification being that there will always be a Choir to buff it, therefore it must have low base stats relative to its price ; that's what I meant by "overbalancing". Instead of actually bringing something to the table, the Choir would be there just to make things even (other hymns notwithstanding for the sake of illustration). We can agree it would feel a bit unfair.

Now I think Stinkmeaner's post was a bit excessive, but not being in the designers' heads, I can't deny the possibility of them overbalancing the Judicator. Though as I said, I don't believe they did ; Inaccurate seems more fluffy to me, or at least the continuation of the "Thou shalt have templates, and deviate they must" theme.

[Del Fuego]

I think part of the general problem is that a lot of our.mentality in Warmahordes is that the grass is always greener philosophy applies. In example, I have a regular opponent buddy at my LGS who plays Ret as his main faction. To say he is a bit underwhelmed by the Hyperion is a fairly large understatement. In all actuality he is about as excited for the Hyperion as I was for the Flameguard Cleanser Officer.

In contrast, I'd kill for an AoE 5 crit consume, hands down. I mean I like Jandrese and all, think he is a good sport and fantastic theory machiner, but if the price for that kind of stuff for Menoth was to drive to Virginia and rough him up in the parking lot of the Game Parlor Chantilly, then road trip it is!

I'm sure we do suffer a bit for our Choir and Vassals (notably in the special rules part for some of our jacks), but we really don't have jacks that are just automatically not taken due to not being stuper-awesome. That being said, I do stare at the Kodiak with envy quite often, my heart a-flutter with the sorts or things I could do if I just had that jack.

Long-winded tangent aside, I do think the Judicator will prove capable across our faction for almost every caster, regardless of how much or how little the warcaster intrinsically synergizes with it.

[jandrese]

In contrast, I'd kill for an AoE 5 crit consume, hands down. I mean I like Jandrese and all, think he is a good sport and fantastic theory machiner, but if the price for that kind of stuff for Menoth was to drive to Virginia and rough him up in the parking lot of the Game Parlor Chantilly, then road trip it is.

That was...awfully specific.

I thought the no-aiming bonus restriction was against models you are currently in melee with. I don't have the exact wording with me however, so I might be wrong.

[Del Fuego]

That was...awfully specific.

Effect of being a tabletop RPGer mate, eventually you just start thinking scenario specific. Also you're geologically closer than most posters to me in the Protectorate forums, and you've published your location and local LGS so it's the easiest to connect.

You can curb stomp my army at Gencon if it makes you feel vindicated.

Bell of Lost Souls is reading as if it was "No Aim Bonus while engaged."

[Stinkmeaner]

So, let's go over some basics with Menoth real quick and see if Juducator is worth it. As has been mentioned earlier, you hardly ever lead with your jacks. Therefor, if you have troops out front you are either potentially deviating onto them with your innacurate rockets, or spraying them with templates. Possibly both. That being said, there are people that play jacks up front, BUT that strategy almost always relies on longer threat ranges and Vassals to Enliven away and counterpunch the enemy. NEITHER of those tactics are valid with the Judicator. This IS a game of threat ranges, wether it's shooting or melee, and Judicator can't close the distance and is innacurate, so he has neither as a primary threat.

I just think it's a REALLY bad design. I would be willing to bet that Judicator didnt even hit the table in playtest, they just looked at it on paper, considered what buffs we have available, and made up some stats. And I think that happens a lot with Menoth... I don't see Other factions getting burnt the same way due to their in house buffs... They just get to enhance their models, like it should be... We however get our stats dropped to compensate for what buffs we have.... It's a ridiculous mentality that needs to be fixed.

[Wulfy]

I play with deliverers and redeemers, you guys complaining about RAT 1, obviously do not. The other thing you obviously do not do is knock stuff down. Sennys love to knock stuff down, and it is easy. Give me any jack, I charge it, maybe i need some help from Orrik, I slam the jack over the top of a unit of troops. This is easy because I can easily charge up beside the jack for the slam. Now I have two things to do next. Aim at the knocked down troops with deliverers or redeemers, hitting on threes, and aim at the knocked down jack hitting on threes. You can take two Sennys and even if your opponent tries to kill them they cause great headaches. You just have to get good at hiding them behind stuff. Move the stuff out of the way to open up the charge lane. Or great as a counter charge. I move my jack out of the way do some damage to you, no senny comes in, BAM, BAM, SLAM, Collateral damage, jack is finished and three more models are on their back.

I play inaccurate units more than most, but I find they do every well. I know this, because my opponents complain about them.

[Outbreak]

So, let's go over some basics with Menoth real quick and see if Juducator is worth it. As has been mentioned earlier, you hardly ever lead with your jacks. Therefor, if you have troops out front you are either potentially deviating onto them with your innacurate rockets, or spraying them with templates. Possibly both.

YOU SIR, need to learn how to deviate better
If your infantry are more than maybe 4 inches up from from your jacks then you're removing them from the fight almost regardless of who they are. Even then at range 14, you still have a 10 inch buffer, which means you have to deviate poorly with both blasts. And if you deviate 4-6 twice in a row... well... idk, but hats off to you sir. I personally deviate like a champ and my friends hate me for it

That being said, there are people that play jacks up front, BUT that strategy almost always relies on longer threat ranges and Vassals to Enliven away and counterpunch the enemy.

while I agree judicator should have some screening units in front of him and not be the spearhead guy, speed four isnt any worse than many other jacks menoth have, its the risk of guys getting in the way of his huge base that I'd call a problem (hence why i wouldnt put him in front either)

I just think it's a REALLY bad design. I would be willing to bet that Judicator didnt even hit the table in playtest, they just looked at it on paper, considered what buffs we have available, and made up some stats. And I think that happens a lot with Menoth... I don't see Other factions getting burnt the same way due to their in house buffs... They just get to enhance their models, like it should be... We however get our stats dropped to compensate for what buffs we have.... It's a ridiculous mentality that needs to be fixed.

If you said you didnt like the judicator I'd understand, but those are some pretty harsh accusations against the developers and playtesters, and if you really feel that strongly they're screwing menoth why dont you just not play them? There are plenty of other options, since I'm fairly certain they wont be changing their approach anytime soon. Its all about having fun my friend, and you just sound pissed =\

[Stinkmeaner]

I dont think anyone is complaining about not knowing how to use innacurate models, I think the issue is WHY did they make it innacurate? Clearly the same people that playtested and aproved the Stormwall did NOT make the Judicator... They are in completely different leagues.

Plus on a different note, you realize that innacurate models REALLY run your clock down in timed games, so I doubt that it will see much play in competitive games either. Maybe a few EFeora games if at all.

[PG_lord tyrant watt]

Judicator is the boss!

[Outbreak]

stinkmeaner just for the sake of discussion what do you think the stats should be? you ask why they made it innacurate so im curious, cause if they DIDNT make it innacurate i'd be concerned it was broken. If you can reliably hit with 3 pow 16's a turn at range 14 even opposing heavies would have to be afraid

[Stinkmeaner]

Outbreak, Remove innacurate and it would be fine. Why would you be concerned it was broken? First, thats a 22 point investment to get the 3 shots at POW 16. Sorry, but heavies should be afraid of any 22 point investment. If it was NOT innacurate it would be able to put pressure, just like the rest of them. As it is, Judicator is not scary at all unless it makes it to late game and they have few things to take it down with.

[Del Fuego]

Judicator is the boss!

Well, as I have never beaten Watt in battle, I have to assume he knows more than me about model interaction. I withdraw all complaints from the Judicator.

[Alzer]

I'm honestly not very concerned about the scatter rolls hitting our screening units. Either the screening unit is too tough to be threatened by blast damage from the rockets, or is cheap enough that I don't really care if I lose a couple. I've killed enough of my own Zealots with missed grenades that it's really not something that botheres me. When firing at really extreme ranges I'll most likely keep the Passage or Warding Hymns on a Judicator instead of the Battle (also keeping my other jacks safe). Pow 7 blast damage rolls are just not a threat to our good tarpits, especially with DWard or the like up.

I like that the Judicator has ended up being a simple combination of two things I already like to have in my army in one big amazing-looking package. Those two things being rockets, and heavy melee damage. If anything, I view the Judicator's rockets as a deterrent to enemy infantry more than anything else. Your opponent knowing it can huck out massed AoEs from a pretty substantial range will keep many units at bay (or rushing into the flamethrowers).

[Outbreak]

I hadn't even included the choir since you were mentioning how judge should be fine without then, but if we do include them and call the judicator 22 points, the shots go up to pow 18's. 3 Pow 18's have him shooting as hard at 14 inches as many heavies do in melee. Then when opposing jacks do arrive in melee he has his fists. Looking at the ret and khador colossals they each have a large POW 18 shot, but we have 3, which each then deviate a secondary blast which at POW 10 can very much threaten support/units and even a good few high def casters. With innacurate we have to work at making those PS 18's hit, but they're still dangerous, where as without it all 3 hitting reliably becomes considerably more powerfull than the ranged available to the other colossals. Thoughts?

[Stinkmeaner]

it's POW 14 normal..... not 16, big difference

[Alzer]

Outbreak, where are you getting the extra two points of damage on there? Judicator rockets are pow 14 base. So with the Choir the jump up to 16 (which is still dangerous to a heavy, especially if you can hit with three of them.) PS18s would be glorious but I'm pretty sure they don't want us out-damaging Ret and Cygnar at range.

[Outbreak]

*facepalms* self-failiure noted lol

[loramer]

Oh stinkmeaner...how you love to troll...

have you even bothered to proxy it yet?

This thread was started to give actual play information on it. There are multiple other threads spouting the doom and gloom about it in theory and I think that if you can't be bothered to try it out first, you might be better suited to post in those threads.

For all of you who have proxied it and given us some nice info on how it plays, thanks! I have found the information very helpful and entertaining. I am hoping to pick up the book soon and try it out. Once I have given it a shot with a couple casters I will post how the games went and how the Judy fared in them.

[Outbreak]

All I know is I'm getting one, regardless of whether it sees much play I'll have myself one indisputably sexy model. ^_^

[Stinkmeaner]

Since when is posting real table top situations "trolling" are you saying that 6 deviations WON'T run your clock down? are you saying that our model does in fact create threat that other heavies need to watch out for? Are you saying that correctly spread out infantry will still get blown off the table? What exactly did I post that was either trolling, or incorrect? P.S. I have not fielded this guy, he's not out yet. but I have played a lot of games with speed 4 heavies with reach, and TONS of games with innacurate models, and I notice that I hardly get my points back on Redeemers except in Efeora lists and pKreoss lists. This guy is 13 MORE points for only 2 more deviations... I just dont think its worth it in a vast majority of situations.. Sadly, like most of the people on here, i LOVE the way the Judicator looks, and WANT our models to be useful on the table, I just dont think this guy will be.

[Terraneaux]

It's mainly the lack of movement tricks that makes me leery of this thing. Unlike Stormwall/Conquest, it doesn't have a means of controlling where enemy models move with templates. We can't use our main 'save me from melee' card (Enliven) on this thing. It seems like we're paying a lot for big numbers, but absolutely no finesse. And we already have plenty of big numbers; our 'jacks hit plenty hard. What we're missing is ways to get them to where they need to be.

I'm not saying it's 'underpowered' but given that it doesn't give us access to anything that we couldn't get elsewhere I'm kind of scratching my head as to why this thing is even necessary. It's no Vessel of Judgment, that's for sure.

[Stinkmeaner]

Agree 100%.... It's got all sorts of design flaws. I blame the paytesters and the Dev team. Sorry, but it really is their fault.

[Del Fuego]

Agree 100%.... It's got all sorts of design flaws. I blame the paytesters and the Dev team. Sorry, but it really is their fault.

Worrying about potential pitfalls and drawbacks is fine for theory. Condemning a model out of hand without even bothering to proxy it first is not okay.

[Alzer]

So take it to the Doom thread guys. That's what it was made for.

[Spyde]

Not much doom in the Judicator....

The 6x Templates shouldnt slow you down, if they do.. wow.. you have 3x Scatters, then +1 deviation templar off the first set.. Its not like you roll Deviation + distance 6x times.

Also if 18pts into 1 model makes it where you cannot do the above..

Its not flashy, its solid, i very very much enjoyed it with efeora. The Cont fire on everything, 4 focus, Escort.. is amazing.

[Terraneaux]

I don't think eFeora needed the help. Kind of like why I was frustrated that we didn't get access to Wyshnallyr, he would have been good with everyone except the Harbinger - I don't want our list of tournament-viable casters to be Harby, pSev, and eFeora until the end of time.

[medward]

Battle does make it a bit more accurate. However you cannot always use the Battle song. There are a lot of reasons I end up using the other songs, which drops me to an effective RAT of 1. RAT 1 means you are hitting a DEF 12 trooper about 8.3% of the time on 2 dice, and only 12.5% on 3 dice.

RAT 1 with 3 dice means you're hitting DEF 12 exactly 50% of the time. It's not great, but not completely terrible either - if you want to shoot things heavier than light infantry, use the hymn of battle and then you're hitting DEF 14 50% of the time with your RAT 3, which is hitting often enough to fry a few solos or knock out a few columns in light jacks on their way up the field.

[Terraneaux]

RAT 1 with 3 dice means you're hitting DEF 12 exactly 50% of the time. It's not great, but not completely terrible either - if you want to shoot things heavier than light infantry, use the hymn of battle and then you're hitting DEF 14 50% of the time with your RAT 3, which is hitting often enough to fry a few solos or knock out a few columns in light jacks on their way up the field.

If you're spending a focus point per shot you're probably better off using Redeemers.

[lastspartacus]

Judicator is sooo much more than just 18 points of aoes.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Agree 100%.... It's got all sorts of design flaws. I blame the paytesters and the Dev team. Sorry, but it really is their fault.

Ah Stinkmeaner, how I love it when you join us for your semi-annual hate fest on the Protectorate.




All:
Just play the thing. Get 10 games in with it then come back and flip out if you feel that's the correct reaction.

[Terraneaux]

Judicator is sooo much more than just 18 points of aoes.

In all seriousness, care to elaborate? I just don't see it having many abilities that we can't get elsewhere. Is it really just a cost-efficiency thing? 18 pts of Adjudicator being better than 18 points of other 'jacks?

Like I said, I'm not saying it's underpowered. But not having any major flaws isn't enough - it needs to bring something to the list in a positive manner. It's already got flaws in the context of not being able to use ooa movement.

[loramer]

Agree 100%.... It's got all sorts of design flaws. I blame the paytesters and the Dev team. Sorry, but it really is their fault.

This is what I mean by trolling. You are looking for a fight/argument and you just wish to spout off on the doom and gloom of the model all from theory, not from play experiences.

As stated above...That is not why this thread was started. There are other threads for that. This thread is for ACTUAL PLAY EXPERIENCES with proxying the model. Theorymachine is great. But actual play differs greatly from theorymachine and is much more accurate at judging a model/rules.

[jandrese]

Usually when I start to see pink boxes in a thread I take it as my excuse to sneak out before it becomes a flamefest.

[Terraneaux]

As stated above...That is not why this thread was started. There are other threads for that. This thread is for ACTUAL PLAY EXPERIENCES with proxying the model. Theorymachine is great. But actual play differs greatly from theorymachine and is much more accurate at judging a model/rules.

I'd say that play experience in a few games<theorymachine<exhaustive, well documented play at a competitive level. I've seen a Mage Hunter Assassin kill the Deathjack in one hit on turn 2, but if that was the only game you'd used either in them you'd think that the Deathjack was miserable and the Mage Hunter Assassin was omgwtfbbq broken. Math doesn't lie, OTOH.

I don't agree with what Stinkmeaner is saying. However, I have the feeling that he is not being entirely genuine with his statements; PP has shown that they pay attention to player outlook on the game forums from time to time, and there's a stereotype (rightly or wrongly I don't know) that, for example, a lot of Cygnar players on the forums spend time complaining and PP listens. Frankly we could have even not received a colossal and I wouldn't have cared; our faction is not short on the heavy armor that hits like a truckload of buses or 'jacks with massive anti-infantry capabilities (hello Vanquisher). Fundamentally what our faction could use is more 'proactive' abilities rather than 'reactive' abilities, as 'proactive' abilities make an army more capable of having a plan, executing it, and leaving it to the opponent to be lucky or skilled enough to disrupt said plan. We're not going to get any more 'proaction' from the Adjudicator; the most proactive thing it can do is walk onto an objective and sit there with its oodles of health boxes (I'm not being sarcastic, that is a proactive play, even if it might not seem like it at first). That's not terrible at all, but it's not going to have as much of an effect on our game as any of the other factions' colossals. Which is fine; Cygnar probably needed the help.