So, Stormwall.

[Patuljak]

I just played a Vassal game. eHaley vs Morv, 50 pts. He had a Stormwall.

I call bullcrap on it. Granted, what I'm going to write is my kneejerk reaction, but I'm pretty depressed.

It is freaking SPD 9 with eHaley. Take a moment to digest that. A DEF10, ARM19 model with a crapload of boxes is SPD 9 and has reach. It can be bonded, Temporal Accelerated, given 4 focus, Arcane Shielded (which it was), it can pop freaking Storm Pods when it ends move which can then be triangulated to (seriously?). It's freaking silly. Granted it was a bad matchup and I could do things differently (he popped feat and charged the Stormwall into Ghetorix second turn, which I could have avoided), so I am aware that it can be dealt with, if nothing else engage with infantry and force a bad trample, or Primal two beasts and scrap it.

What I'm depressed about is the kind of impact it's going to have on the game. It's moving into two/three list format, so while you can and will HAVE to have a list that can deal with the thing, your other lists are still going to have to be able to deal with it. This means infantry will become obsolete in an even bigger way. I don't know what you guys think, but if I'm going to start seeing 3-4 heavies each game just to deal with the thing it's going to become boring for me really fast. Infantry is fun, but aside infantry casters it's just not going to have any impact on games with colossals in them. Yes, beasts and jacks are supposed to be the centrepiece of the game and currently Warmachine is taking 1-2 jacks total each game, but honestly jack heavy lists are pretty one dimensional. I want a game of combos and tricks, not a game of heavies + tarpit unit + support. Honestly, the eHaley list was pretty one dimensional too, and my problem with it is that I was simply unable to stop it. I knew what he could do, but I simply couldn't do anything.

What do you guys think? Sorry for the messy post, I know the thoughts aren't well structured but I need to get it out of my system. I am of course not claiming that this meta shift will happen as it's too early to say after one game, but it gave me a pretty good idea. I guess I'm just looking for thoughts, theories how to deal with it, your impressions on the impact it will have on the meta.

Oh, and I also hate the fact that I'm going to have to buy a 100? model just to keep up. Screw you PP.

[SillySod]

In general I think they are fine and will be relatively easy to deal with. I certainly dont think they will put a dampener on infantry because infantry tarpits are going to be key to stopping those things.

Urgh, eHaley though. Seriously, ouch.

I guess stormwalls will more or less usurp the place stormclads currently occupy in her lists.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Yeah, a bit early. Just kill them until we develop a new strategy.

[Cronix]

Stormwall is an amazing warjack, but try with an other warlock, take Moshar for a round 2:
- Pillars of Salt will hamper it's movement and shooting turns, without sacrificing your own troops (you don't want to play that game, he shoots and place covering fire over your dudes).
- Sunhammer will break him little by little, it's not much but everything counts.
- Try to get a fast unit or trees (insert arc-node things), so that Moshar can hunt the Journeyman or the minion solo that can dispell arcane shield if jr. stays to far back.
- Take fast models so that you can outrun the Stormwall and hunt down the Stormsmiths and repair guys (Arlan and gobber mechanics).
- Take Ferals, Stalkers or Ghethorix with a Gorax... with Curse of Shadows you will break it.

[RidetheLightning]

I'm looking more towards LotF to solve more support model issues. I think it's the only model that has the movement shenanigans to get around the big guy and take out stuff helping him. We'll see though. You definitely got a raw deal though with Haley2.

[Patuljak]

Yeah, the dude did say he swapped out Rowdy and Stormclad to get it in, but it's just so freaking insane. With casters that manipulate the battlefield it's hard to prevent him killing off at least one heavy before you get a chance to strike back at them, and nothing less than two heavies are gonna cut it. Meaning we're gonna have to start taking three wolves per list, because it's too easy to kill off one. I'm holding hope for the Woldwrath to be all kinds of awesome (like spells cast from him can move huge bases as well...wow that would make eKrueger not gimped...).

But yeah, once your heavy hitters are gone, all he needs is to bully you with his colossal and it's a game. Here's hoping my knee jerk is overly pessimistic, I did play badly by putting trackers to the side (he had B13 and eEiryss) instead of just sacrificing them, and I also had Druids and he had Nyss. Maybe Ghetto could have survived it on the nose if he didn't get blinded by a sneaky Gorman being TK'ed and rolling 1 on deviation distance, but 3 initials and 4 Focus make me doubt it. In any case, vs eHaley that's 2 turns of free reign before you can smack it down with your heavies...

Wait 'til you take on one yourself. I was freaking shocked. Stormwall is just SO good, and a lot of why he's good will apply to other colossals as well. The problem I see is that he forces you to accept that you're going to have to sacrifice a lot to get rid of him, and if he gets a good turn of combat and you then scrap him with two wolves he still profits, as you spent four Fury to Primal two heavies that are going to be useless and/or sitting ducks for another turn. I think that's worth the 19pts.

[DontStop]

You have to plan for Stormwall (and the rest for that matter) now, the game has changed, you have to change with it.

[Katkiller 5]

None of them ignore stealth, so eKaya may get a new purpose in life here, especially with her yank-back feat. The anti-infantry theme in general of the colassals, I would think, will definitely increase her table time, even as it hurts Morvahna.

[DontStop]

I dont think EKaya will be able to yank a Garantuan (spelling).

[Katkiller 5]

Not what I was referring to, was referencing her ability to yank her wolves away from the colassal/gargantuan that they just roughed up/wrecked.

I think the bigger issue for Circle is less taking out the colassal itself, and more taking out our opponents ability to repair/buff/support it. Beyond LotF, who relies on the support models being in base-base with the colassal (or near enough to it), I'm trying to think of other ways to clear out thing hiding behind it.

[santospr]

I think playing badly was more of a factor. Assuming Ghetorix was your only chance at killing it, I feel giving him away like that sealed the game. Sure its true that you need at least 2 heavies to kill it, but its 19 points, what did you expect. Gorman is still a problem, if he blinds you of course the thing blinded should die.

This is an extreme knee jerk reaction and feels a little like whining, especially after one game against the new unit type.

Relax, instead of blaming the new model, look at what you could do to better combat this new threat. It is just another element to prepare for, just like IF kayazy or bane thrall spam.

[Rez]

Pat is right in a sense, these things are going to completely change the way the game is played. I know the eHaley player in this instance (coincidently, very good player) he likens using Stormwall to playing Terminus. Eliminate the threats to it, then simply win because they cant deal. Terminus is a massive meta bender because of this, and I dont especially like that its going to become a common thing. As for that specific matchup - how do you hide your heavy hitters from a Stormwall that threats 14". Especially one that is backed up by Nyss and B13th for lane clearance work. And if you do manage to hide it, can you do it again for the following turns as you deal with her feat. Its a brutal combo, no doubt.

[Hal Gill]

Not what I was referring to, was referencing her ability to yank her wolves away from the colassal/gargantuan that they just roughed up/wrecked.

I think the bigger issue for Circle is less taking out the colassal itself, and more taking out our opponents ability to repair/buff/support it. Beyond LotF, who relies on the support models being in base-base with the colassal (or near enough to it), I'm trying to think of other ways to clear out thing hiding behind it.

Fly the Griffon around there? Depends what's hiding of course and whether the luchador Griff has enough to kill it.

[Tevelyn]

it might bring thrullg back into the game, or maybe the pureblood. without arcane shield you can use wold stalkers or blood trackers to ping him some, if you can knock 10-15 damage off him a primal'd ghetorix can kill it in one turn pretty reliably.

stacking deceleration is going to make him pretty interesting with haley. 24arm vs ranged oO

[Not So Feral]

Everything I have seen said about the colossals so far, they have shouted 'take field mechanics' over and over, so it's either take them out first, or try take the thing out in one go (two warped/primaled/force evo'ed Ferals could probably get it done in a turn, not unreasonable to have in a 50 point game)

[Serpentmage42]

I faced a similair list with eHaley and some beefed up super solos. Honestly I think that the introduction of the colossals are some of the best things that could happen to Circle. Hear me out: most of my games are ultimately won by scenario with movement shenanigans (gallows groves/druids/Kruger/shifting stones) to get objectives or by caster kill straight up caster kill. Frequently I will win games with only having killed a few of the opponents models and their caster. I'll break down my rant like this:

1.THE LESS MODELS AN OPPONENT HAS ON THE TABLE IS BETTER FOR CIRCLE. We have so many ways of moving, getting around and getting through things that with less models it makes it even easier to get to the caster.

2. In both games (vs. Stormwall and Conquest) the opponent either used his colossal to sit on objective or to march towards my caster. That leaves very few things protecting the actual caster (I'll take no Ol' Rowdy ANY day) and chances are they are dumping a ton of focus to support it. 3 focus on the colossal and upkeeping an average of one or two spells leaves less on the caster themselves.

3. It is only one model after all and can be very easily tar pitted, especially with only partial thresher. Stormwall has no sub cortex...

4. Who says you have to kill the Stormwall? Just go around it! Especially if the caster is hiding behind it! A warpathed Stalker/ferald with Sprint/Mohsar SoF/Baldur Forestwalk/Grayle Sidestep/eKaya Feat/shifting stones can just have you go around the 19 point road block. Especially units with reach like the Stalker or with Krueger's lightning tendrils.

5. Treat the Stormwall like a drunk frat guy: ignore it's belligerence and attempts to bully your caster and think of ways to go around it or occupy it. Druids with immunity to lightning/reach and high defense sound like perfect ways to deny shooting.

6. Colossals will almost always be followed by Mekanics/cheap support solos which make for juicy heart eater/beserk/warpath/LoF attacks. Especially if the caster is hiding behind the huge base

7. Taking free strikes is the real downside, but there is always ghostly which I think denies free strikes on our wolves, I'll have to double check.


In my game I was playing eKaya 3 heavies, druids and the Skinwalkers against eHaley. The Stormwall advance up front and by turn two had killed all of my support units except the Druids and my heavies with multiple lightning attack/gunmage/stormcaller shenanginans. I ran Laris around the Stormwall (took a freestrike from a gunmage= 2 damage) and then feated behind the Stormwall. Stalker killed a few gunmages, Pureblood two more and the druids engaged the Stormwall. With no other melee jacks and the Stormall occupied he was forced to run out of control range to the Stormwall or else be charged by me the next turn. I caught him backed into a corner turn 4.

Conquest was even easier. pVlad was following behind the souped-up speed Conquest and Drago was running wild with delight after finally not having to play guard duty on my flank. The Kayazy were in the process of murdering my druids and the boss crippled my Gorax. Conquest shot my Feral doing almost 18 points of damage and laid down some serious covering fire, but leaving a gap for me to see Conquest itself. This earned him a victory point by the end of turn two. Then, my WA charged Conquest, killed the mechanik hiding behind it, warpathed around the Conquest in melee with pVlad and killed him with two swings. He had wiped out most of my infantry and left me with about 5 models on the table. In turn I had killed exactly 3 of his models (mechanik/one Kayazy and his caster).

I'm not saying Colossals aren't incredibly awesome, they are, but this isn't a game of Shadow of the Colossus or a Legend of Zelda boss battle. You won't always need to kill it if there's ways to go around it and kill the caster instead. Hope this perspective helps!

[Obeisance]

I started a similar thread in the Legion forum. lol.
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ls-End-of-Days

[Bladestorm]

I can't help thinking that Galleon is the bigger game-changer, as he can do his heavy-wrecking from further back thanks to his giant harpoon and doesn't have to give up his shooting with the lesser guns to do it.

That and because mercs can potentially stack Batten Down the Hatches and Spiny Growth for ARM 24 + D3 damage to warjacks/warbeasts that hit it.

[ColdYinTiger]

Honestly, Galleon seems to be one of the best ones which is interesting considering it's a Merc jack. Overall they aren't hard things to crack, Pure-bloods and thrulgs for Arcane shield, Curse of Shadows, Warp Wolves. The general consensus of them is it takes a lot less points to take down a colossal than people realize. They are just a new factor to deal with and disassemble. The problematic factor in that game was less Stormwall and more eHaley.