Collosal Menoth rule interactions?

[Moknim]

Anyone at L&L able to verify the interactions between the choir/vassal and the Judicator? Are we certain we get choir buffs and vassal shots?

Can the collosal be bonded?

I know that these are hypothetical/not quite certain things - hoping someone can snag a peak at the book and report back.

[Cronix]

Hey guys,
- Colossals are part of a warcaster's battle group:
- can be given up to 3 focus as per normal
- can be bonded
- Colossals cannot be disrupted.
- Colossals can only advance during its normal movement and cannot be placed.
- Colossals can never gain stealth, advance deployment or incorporeal.
- Colossals cannot be 'jack marshalled. Your opponent can never take control of a Colossal.

And i sure that the Judicator gains choir buffs it's an oversized warjack afterall , and Vassal can help a little bit (although no enliven because they can only move during their activation).

[ArneB]

So they can they can benefit from Escort or Mobility at least?

[Spyde]

Soo Bond Judicator to Efeora and light the world on fire ?

[jandrese]

Take a Vassal too if you do that for 6 autofire AoE 3s, yes. Escort and Mobility should work on them, although they won't need the Pathfinder part of Mobility because all huge bases get Pathfinder automatically.

Also, eFeora will appreciate the free focus point more than most casters, being as focus starved as she usually is.

[Moknim]

Wow, never thought they would let us get eFeora's bond on that gun. That is huge. She gives him everything - speed, intense troop clearing ability, and can ignite for when Pow 20 just isn't enough.

Thanks for the report - I'm liking the Judicator more now.

[Spyde]

I think the Judicator will be a very nice addition to what we have. Just as good as the Stormwall.

[jandrese]

I wouldn't go that far. The Stormwall looks to be head and shoulders over the Judicator, even if you factor in the Protectorate support options.

The Covering Fire templates alone are amazing, and the guns are basically +3 RAT but -1 POW over the Judicator's guns AFTER choir support. And then you add in the lightning pods which make +1 FOC look laughable. The Judicator will be better in melee, but I'm getting a real "artillery platform" vibe from the Colossals in general (except maybe the Cryx one) and none of them have the Weapon Platform rule as far as I know so it's basically a choice between huge array of guns or the fists.

[Blarmb]

I wouldn't go that far. The Stormwall looks to be head and shoulders over the Judicator, even if you factor in the Protectorate support options.

The Covering Fire templates alone are amazing, and the guns are basically +3 RAT but -1 POW over the Judicator's guns AFTER choir support. And then you add in the lightning pods which make +1 FOC look laughable. The Judicator will be better in melee, but I'm getting a real "artillery platform" vibe from the Colossals in general (except maybe the Cryx one) and none of them have the Weapon Platform rule as far as I know so it's basically a choice between huge array of guns or the fists.

Exactly. The biggest issue here is it's an artillery platform that's outclassed by our existing options in every area except for focus efficiency. We already have plenty of focus efficiency.

The Stormwall brings a lot to the table that Cygnar needs. Heck even the POW 20 fists make me go "WOW" in Cygnar (a faction I find really lacks a lot of punch), and "Meeeeeeh" in Protectorate. It's got big guns, and big fists on a Chassis that meshes well with the support options they do have. It protects itself, and can syngerize with other units.

I'm actually pretty pumped for the Stormwall. I don't play Cygnar but it'll be an interesting piece to go up against.

[Vinsklortho]

Exactly. The biggest issue here is it's an artillery platform that's outclassed by our existing options in every area except for focus efficiency. We already have plenty of focus efficiency.

It rolls all those up onto one chassis though and that has some great advantages. Buying those pieces individually (2 Repenters, 2 Redeemers, 1 hard hitting heavy lets say Crusader) is going to cost you 26+ points and requires 5 choir members just to make sure they all get buffed. It has advantages and disadvantages to having eggs in that one basket(can't be everywhere at once, only one anciliary attack, requires less choir to function, benefits more from single target buffs/upkeeps like Def Ward/Vision/bonds).

I also think people underestimate how much that free focus is worth. That 1 focus may be the difference between being able to run all your jacks and still cast your upkeeps. I know I run 2 Reckoners with Vindictus and I have to Sac Lamb on the first turn of the game to get off Def Ward, True Path, and have both Reckoners run and then end up with exactly zero focus on my caster. That free focus means pFeora can fully support 2 Judicators every single turn and still have enough focus to cast Wall of Fire if she wanted to.

[jandrese]

It really feels to me like someone went: Lets take Nemo and make him the most Nemo caster to ever Nemo ever! Focus for days, killer spell list, super jacks with tons of buff spells, unbelieveable feat! This guy is going to rock! Now the Stormwall, hmm, two big guns are easy...lets give it covering fire! That will be great, oooh, lets have it buff stormsmiths, and why not disrupt and autohit at the same time? Awesome.

Dammit, it's 4:45 on Friday now, lets do eeKreoss and the Judicator. Hmm, Redeemer rockets don't quite work...meh chain blast is good enough. Flamethrowers...should they do something else? Nah. Default stat line looks fine, done! Wait, the card is practically empty...eh extra focus I guess, I don't know. Now Kreoss, on a horse. Um, maybe Immolation and Cleansing Fire are out, too predictable, gotta hurry, wait Force Blast looked nice on Nemo, lets give it to him as well. Also maybe A2A, wait no, Crevasse, that's similar but different right? Some buffs, well he already had Defenders Ward and Inviolable Resolve, I guess Holy Ward is the only one left. Wait, the spell list is basically nothing at this point, and we've only got a slot or two left, maybe some sort of movement spell? Well, he's on a horse so it can't affect him, don't want him personally assassinating now, he's Kreoss. Warpath is beasts only, tweaking it for jacks would be easy, and it doesn't look too crazy, lets do it! Maybe toss in Ignite too just for the hell of it. Done.

Wait! Damn, his feat, and it's 4:58! I guess he's upkeep guy, we'll just let him recast his upkeeps and blow away enemy ones. Meh, I guess it works.

[Blarmb]

It really feels to me like someone went: Lets take Nemo and make him the most Nemo caster to ever Nemo ever! Focus for days, killer spell list, super jacks with tons of buff spells, unbelieveable feat! This guy is going to rock! Now the Stormwall, hmm, two big guns are easy...lets give it covering fire! That will be great, oooh, lets have it buff stormsmiths, and why not disrupt and autohit at the same time? Awesome.

Dammit, it's 4:45 on Friday now, lets do eeKreoss and the Judicator. Hmm, Redeemer rockets don't quite work...meh chain blast is good enough. Flamethrowers...should they do something else? Nah. Default stat line looks fine, done! Wait, the card is practically empty...eh extra focus I guess, I don't know.

It really does feel phoned in. You could give me 20 minutes and a pad of paper and I could come up with vastly superior concept rules without even trying*. Give any component playtest group (or some Forum players with VASSAL) and they could playtest into fully developed form in maybe a month. This is what they've had in the pipes for 5 years? Who'd they assign to the project, the Janitor?

EDIT: *and I'm a total scrub. I'm sure there are tons of people on this very forum that could do way better than me.

EDIT(Again): Then again I really like Kreoss3 so whatever *shrug*.

[bouncymischa]

Admittedly, it's the other edge of the "catch up the weaker factions" blade. Cygnar does have a reputation for being lacklustre and uncompetitive, while many people would rate the Protectorate as pretty high on the list, overflowing with awesome models and answers to pretty much nearly any challenge. So if you want to balance the factions, and make the weaker ones more appealing, then they do need to get shiny and awesome toys that the other factions don't to bring them up more on par.

On the other hand, you could alternatively argue that "the status quo is fine", like the Legion and Cryx players typically do.

I still someday want to see a debate between those two camps. X3

[Blarmb]

Admittedly, it's the other edge of the "catch up the weaker factions" blade. Cygnar does have a reputation for being lacklustre and uncompetitive, while many people would rate the Protectorate as pretty high on the list, overflowing with awesome models and answers to pretty much nearly any challenge.

Wasn't there just a big thread in general discussion that concluded protectorate was one of the weaker factions? I recall only minons & troll bloods being lower in that analysis.

[Vinsklortho]

It really feels to me like someone went: Lets take Nemo and make him the most Nemo caster to ever Nemo ever! Focus for days, killer spell list, super jacks with tons of buff spells, unbelieveable feat! This guy is going to rock! Now the Stormwall, hmm, two big guns are easy...lets give it covering fire! That will be great, oooh, lets have it buff stormsmiths, and why not disrupt and autohit at the same time? Awesome.

Dammit, it's 4:45 on Friday now, lets do eeKreoss and the Judicator. Hmm, Redeemer rockets don't quite work...meh chain blast is good enough. Flamethrowers...should they do something else? Nah. Default stat line looks fine, done! Wait, the card is practically empty...eh extra focus I guess, I don't know. Now Kreoss, on a horse. Um, maybe Immolation and Cleansing Fire are out, too predictable, gotta hurry, wait Force Blast looked nice on Nemo, lets give it to him as well. Also maybe A2A, wait no, Crevasse, that's similar but different right? Some buffs, well he already had Defenders Ward and Inviolable Resolve, I guess Holy Ward is the only one left. Wait, the spell list is basically nothing at this point, and we've only got a slot or two left, maybe some sort of movement spell? Well, he's on a horse so it can't affect him, don't want him personally assassinating now, he's Kreoss. Warpath is beasts only, tweaking it for jacks would be easy, and it doesn't look too crazy, lets do it! Maybe toss in Ignite too just for the hell of it. Done.

Wait! Damn, his feat, and it's 4:58! I guess he's upkeep guy, we'll just let him recast his upkeeps and blow away enemy ones. Meh, I guess it works.

He seems unfocused compared to a lot of other casters. If he is going to be a spell slinger then he is going to want focus efficient jacks which immediately makes me think JUDICATOR!!!! but then its like it can't benefit from Warpath. Maybe he can take a couple Repenters and/or Vanquishers and then use Warpath as a mini-Refuge.

[Vinsklortho]

Wasn't there just a big thread in general discussion that concluded protectorate was one of the weaker factions? I recall only minons & troll bloods being lower in that analysis.

I think it depends on who you ask. The Prime Generation rated them one of the lowest, but then again I've seen other sources give Menoth serious respect.

[bouncymischa]

Wasn't there just a big thread in general discussion that concluded protectorate was one of the weaker factions? I recall only minons & troll bloods being lower in that analysis.

Could be, although my gut disagrees with that assessment. X3 I remember an older thread asking people to rank the factions, and it seemed like the Protectorate was ranked near the top by a number of people. I think the Protectorate tends to show up in tournament results more often than Retribution, Cygnar, and Mercs, at least.

Admittedly, those sorts of rankings are always subjective, and dependent on what you feel makes a strong faction. Personally, I've always found that when I played my Protectorate, I always felt like I had an answer for everything. Denial, buffs, synergy, all overlapping each other. Which may be why I feel my Protectorate is a stronger faction than most of the other ones I play.

[gizmoduck]

I like the judicator for the 14" range.. Pow 14s before choir. 4 aoes at pow 9 before vassal and efeora or psev. It has long, med and short range threats. I liked the battle engine but the abilities were too tricky to pull off and you'd end up using them once or twice then die. Judicator is pure power! How hard is this guy to kill with def ward / vision / passage? And i love kreoss3 too, finally the vengers are going to be a proper hard hitting unit with s&p and ignite! Crit ftw!

[Spyde]

So Storm Wall vs Judicator

Storm Wall 2x RNG 15 Pow 15 Guns
StormWall 2x rng 10 pow 12 Guns

Judicater 2x RNG 14 Pow 14 Chainblast Aoe's Innacurate
Judicator 2x Spray 8 Pow 12



The real only difference is we get 1 free focus, they get lightning pods.

Since when didnt Cygnar chain lightning/Disrupt the **** out of everything ?

Its not going to hurt my Judicator and avatar


Ill bond my Judicator to eFeora and use my Vassel and toss cont.fire all over the table
Enjoy my PoW 16 blasts and 14 Spray 8's



We have yet to see 100% of the Judicator i thinks.


It should get an ability on its fists since Stormwall got electro leap, Maybe blessed ?
It should get somethin with its 2x Flamers since the Stormwall gets Rapid Fire. Maybe just Cont fire ?

[Vinsklortho]

I think it has Cont Fire on the sprays if its like the Repenter sprays.

[jandrese]

So Storm Wall vs Judicator

Storm Wall 2x RNG 15 Pow 15 Guns
StormWall 2x rng 10 pow 12 Guns

Judicater 2x RNG 14 Pow 14 Chainblast Aoe's Innacurate
Judicator 2x Spray 8 Pow 12

The real only difference is we get 1 free focus, they get lightning pods.

The Stormwall's secondary guns are also Strafe or Covering Fire generators. That's where it really starts to come out a head. The auto-disrupt and auto-hit POW 10s in a line of your choosing and super easy triangulations and charge lane blocking are head and shoulders (and torso and legs) above 1 free allocated focus point as well. Lightning pods are awesome. The idea that our colossal is better at infantry management is laughable. Ours is better at RNG 14, but with a trio of stormsmiths the Stormwall will be just murdering everything that's within 10" without even trying. That's 9+ (probably more like 11 or 12) POW 10s that don't care about your defense. Maybe boosted if eeNemo is around. And even if you survive, you have to run through a POW 12 cloud to get at the Stormwall.

Ours is a vanilla open fist, while the Stormwall is an open fist + electroleap as well. Not that I think it will matter much with that many guns.

[Alzer]

Saving grace against the lightning pods is they actually need to DAMAGE a jack to disrupt it. With PoW 10 they're going to need to boost against our heavies and only have a 50/50 shot on our most of our lights.

Flame-wall templates would have made so much sense. Maybe they're keeping one last spoiler? Not crossing my fingers.

[jandrese]

I saw the page in the spoiler video, there is nothing else.

[Alzer]

Yeah I just found that, watching it now. Oh well.

Also: Surprise of surprises, Judicator and Kr3oss don't have anything but art in the book

[Spyde]

The Stormwall's secondary guns are also Strafe or Covering Fire generators. That's where it really starts to come out a head. The auto-disrupt and auto-hit POW 10s in a line of your choosing and super easy triangulations and charge lane blocking are head and shoulders (and torso and legs) above 1 free allocated focus point as well. Lightning pods are awesome. The idea that our colossal is better at infantry management is laughable. Ours is better at RNG 14, but with a trio of stormsmiths the Stormwall will be just murdering everything that's within 10" without even trying. That's 9+ (probably more like 11 or 12) POW 10s that don't care about your defense. Maybe boosted if eeNemo is around. And even if you survive, you have to run through a POW 12 cloud to get at the Stormwall.

Ours is a vanilla open fist, while the Stormwall is an open fist + electroleap as well. Not that I think it will matter much with that many guns.

The Covering Fire is small AoE's, its nothing new, they had many ways to do this.

Yes The pods can disrupt, nothing new in a faction Full of Disruption.. Try to Disrupt my Judicator or Avatar, ill be ok.

Trio of Stormsmiths murdering everything ? eh its a straight line, if they kill full units in a line, i say gg sir, i was dumb.

So Stormsmith, Journeyman, 3x Stormcallers. Thats 25pts spent already.

Only neat thing is blocking charge lanes to me with the pods... but thats a massive charge lane to a Coloss.

[jandrese]

There's only one straight line (when the pod is put down), the Stormcallers get to target anything in the triangle. You probably have never seen a triangulation before because they're almost impossible to pull off normally without the Firefly (which honestly doesn't help much because it is so fragile), but with the pods getting placed on the Cygnar player's turn, it will be trivial to set up triangulation zones.

The potential zone is 173 in^2 in size, in the same ballpark as the forward half of a control area for a FOC 5 caster, except that it is centered on the Stormwall. The Stormcallers are safely tucked away 10" behind and off to the side of Stormwall.

[loramer]

The triangulation with the pods is a big advantage over the judicator's free focus. Stormsmiths will see a lot of play with the stormwall and will become big targets.
Cygnar is a faction that specializes in huge quantity of POW 10-12 attacks from range and the stormwall fits this perfectly.

The chain attack AOE's are a big advantage over the stormwall's main guns.
Protectorate of Menoth is a faction that specializes in things that are very hard to kill, have jacks that don't look great on paper - but with all of our support really shine, and can crush just about anything once we get into melee; and the judicator fits this perfectly.

Both will be able to clear out infantry exceptionally well.