Conquest for Fun and Profit (Model Discussion, Batreps, and Tactics)

[Tyr852]

Or perhaps we can learn that they can be played just as effectively in other ways.

I totally agree with you there , we've already had a few new ideas tossed out on what does and doesn't work so well with Conquest

[PG_StarmanTTLB]

I like the idea of Iron Fangs, with either UA, as the tarpit of choice. They can Shieldwall up and not worry about slowing down Conquest (ha!). They have a decent DEF and a bonkers high ARM when shieldwalled (especially if you take the Black Dragon UA and Iron Zeal on the key turn) which makes them hard to kill. They're also fairly safe from errant blast damage (which the Conquest pumps out). And best yet, with any of our wonderful faction buffs they also have silly damage output.

A great tactic (in the Dojo, I don't have a Conquest to try yet) is, after having the regular-UA IFP advance and SW every turn, on the key turn charge them in and gang up to get near-guaranteed crits on a couple of targets. Then Reform them beyond the now KD'd models, into Shield Wall. The Conquest walks up behind, shoots at a bunch of KD'd hard targets already softened by the IFP charge, and no worries about the low RAT or even stray AOE damage on the now-SW'd IFP.

[OrsusSmash]

You just discovered one of the truly great things about Mechaniks. Just the fact that they're on the table can be a major deterrent. I use Karchev a lot and like to keep a posse of them with him. When he's hoarding his Focus and being repaired he's pretty tough to bring down.

I had forgotten about our Mechaniks for awhile, because the lists I played never seemed to reward bringing them along. They're much more suited for an attrition based list, and I've had a hard time making that work consistently with our warjacks (mainly due to other army's shenanigans.) With Conquest I feel a lot more confident making that investment.

Related to the "screening with infantry" discussion: if you're down to the wire, you can run Mechaniks in front of Conquest, in B2B. Non-reach models can't get to Conquest before killing the Mechaniks, who are DEF 15 against direct attacks (even better if you can scare up something like a Ternion cloud vs. shooting,) and the size of Conquest's base coupled with his poop DEF means that templates smaller than 5" aren't going to touch them.

Not at all "plan A", but a fun thing to have in the back pocket.

Orsus, don't forget about Tempest & Freezing Grip on Sorscha.

Oh trust me, that's right where my mind went. However, I ran a list sans-Sylas, and it's a lot harder to get mileage out of her spells without him.

With Sylas and Tempest, you actually have a really scary "KD/Feat + boosted Conquest shots" combo that will keep your opponent really honest. Not a lot of casters want to eat a boosted 15, a boosted 12, and then 3 more 12's if you catch them low/without Focus (or strip them with either Eiryss.) Fun stuff.

Playing aggressively with the whole of your army seems more rewarding than centering everything on your colossal, or build the list around colossal to protect it, especially so as we do have awesome infantry~

I keep saying this, and I'm going to keep saying it because I think it's one of the best qualifiers as to why I've been enjoying Conquest and some folks haven't been: Conquest really relies on you building for and playing a more methodical, paced game (aka "classic Khador.") Khador has some very strong lists that are much more aggressive (which have become popular list building archetypes, and for good reason!), and some players also just prefer that style of play so they naturally build their lists that way.

Neither is better or worse, for the record! I started playing Khador back in the Apotheosis/Superiority days, when Khador's playstyle was much more attrition-y, so running lists like that - which is has been very difficult in Mk. 2, but is more feasible with a model like Conquest - is like going home for me.

If your doing Iron flesh Kayzy you might as well untie that 19 point chain tying them down

Or you can force your opponent to chew through the Iron Fleshed Kayazy, then have to chew through Conquest with what resources they have left.

I'm really looking forward to this approach with Butcher1 (so you can flip the switch and go into "KILL EVERYTHING" mode when they commit,) and probably with Irusk1 as well.

[Jake the Dog]

- If Khador ever gets access to semi-reliable Knockdown (ha!), Conquest will be an assassination machine. Most 'casters are really vulnerable to his gun load-out if they drop too low on focus (and some are vulnerable pretty much all the time,) so if you can knock them down/make them stationary, it's very possible for him to walk up and shell them to death with just a few boosts (or again, maybe not even that if they're squishy.) That didn't happen this game (ended up using Sorscha1's feat in an extremely unsatisfying way,) but the threat is definitely there.

Isn't the Marauder's Combo smite Reliable enough Knockdown? Slams Knowdown the target.

[Tyr852]

I also thought the Battle Engine was pretty reliable for KD , it's no quake via arc node but it's solid enough.

[Jake the Dog]

I also thought the Battle Engine was pretty reliable for KD , it's no quake via arc node but it's solid enough.

Yeah. It costs 2 more points though. But yet again, it runs without focus and is another Huge based model.

[mozart]

Pretty basic thought here, so excuse the simple nature of this post but what are people feeling is the single most optimal 'caster to run Conquest?

Im leaning towards pVlad for obvious reasons. When you invest 19 points in something you need it to be good at everything. Overkill. Shooting the Main Gun and missing is just a massive waste. pVlad gives you increased accuracy with Signs & Portents. You must get the charge. Forced March gets you up the table. Boundless Charge closes the gap and makes him more efficient.

Pretty straightforward but was curious what you all thought.

[PG_Samalefic]

I still think Harkevich.

He'll make it better, and it'll make him better.

Force multiplier ftw.

[wargolem]

so Conquest is FA 2 and you can include him in ANY theme list that allows non character warjacks correct?

[Jake the Dog]

so Conquest is FA 2 and you can include him in ANY theme list that allows non character warjacks correct?

Yes, unless it says Heavy Warjacks or Warjacks without Ranged Weapons for some reason. The latter is true for Zoktavir1's No Quarter Tier list.

[PG_StarmanTTLB]

so Conquest is FA 2 and you can include him in ANY theme list that allows non character warjacks correct?

Yes, unless it says Heavy Warjacks or Warjacks without Ranged Weapons for some reason. The latter is true for Zoktavir1's No Quarter Tier list.

To explain further:

Conquest is a huge-based colossal non-character Khadoran warjack. Fit that into any given Theme force using those exact terms.
- Some of our Theme forces call for "Non-Character Khadoran Warjacks", which the Conquest fits into.
- Some call for "Khadoran Heavy Warjacks", which the Conquest does NOT fit into (not being a heavy warjack).
- Some call for "Non-character Khadoran Warjacks with Open Fists" (such as Irusk2's NQ39 "Heavy Armor Battalion"), which the Conquest DOES qualify for.
- Some call for very specific warjacks, such as Butcher1's NQ41 "Claws of the Dragon" calling for "Khadoran warjacks without ranged weapons". This is currently the ONLY theme list we have that the Conquest cannot fit in!
Get the idea?

[MathPasta]

Isn't anybody else bugged by this but me?

"Mwa ha ha ha ha! Finally! The conquest is made! Our giant colossal capable of taking out armies!"

"Sir! I have bad news. There at 12 O clock its sighted...."

"Whats sighted? What can be so scary that even us, with out giant robot have to fear it!"

"....GUY WITH METAL SWORDS AND A BUFF ATTACHED!"

"NOOOOO! Those fiends! Even the conquest stands no chance against some guys with sticks! Quick! Send over some back alley thugs to shield it with their bodies!"

[wargolem]

Isn't anybody else bugged by this but me?

"Mwa ha ha ha ha! Finally! The conquest is made! Our giant colossal capable of taking out armies!"

"Sir! I have bad news. There at 12 O clock its sighted...."

"Whats sighted? What can be so scary that even us, with out giant robot have to fear it!"

"....GUY WITH METAL SWORDS AND A BUFF ATTACHED!"

"NOOOOO! Those fiends! Even the conquest stands no chance against some guys with sticks! Quick! Send over some back alley thugs to shield it with their bodies!"

so damn funny

[whats82]

It is pretty funny, if you go over to the troll forum they walk about screening mountain king as well.

[MathPasta]

I think this is the sign that the game needs revision. MAJOR revision. When colossals need protection from infantry.

I understan that the Stormwall gets by on pure attack power, but that doesn't excuse that just infantry is capable of bringing it down so easily.

[Jake the Dog]

I think this is the sign that the game needs revision. MAJOR revision. When colossals need protection from infantry.

I understan that the Stormwall gets by on pure attack power, but that doesn't excuse that just infantry is capable of bringing it down so easily.

No, it's a sign that PP did their homework. Colossals shouldn't be win buttons.

[Tyr852]

Have to agree with Jake , most the colossals are right where they should be (the storm wall might be a bit above but meh it happens ), not unplayable but not pay2win either.

[Seventhprophet]

Have to agree with Jake , most the colossals are right where they should be (the storm wall might be a bit above but meh it happens ), not unplayable but not pay2win either.

Kind of sounds like, "I like them weak because I don't want to buy one." lol.

[quindraco]

No, it's a sign that PP did their homework. Colossals shouldn't be win buttons.

They shouldn't be lose buttons, either, which is what at least some of them are. People keep posting like balance implies that Colossals be overcosted, rather than costed appropriately. PP "doing their homework" (I dislike this analogy, since balance is incredibly hard to achieve, and I am very understanding of PP failing in some of their initial attempts) would suggest that the colossals are worth their price tag, and some of them are not. Taking Conquest as an example, he's certainly not worth more than 18 points, and being even a single point over your true value is NOT balance, just as being a point under isn't.

[MathPasta]

Im not saying pay2win (Even though two defenders will never be taken over stormwall)-

Im saying that this is backwards logic. We are protecting Godzilla from light infantry!

The game at the core is made that the Warnouns need the protection from infantry, and only specific Warnouns are made to deal with infantry (Unless you pull off a trample 1/100 times and without getting hit on the way 3+ times) whilst infantry can deal with other infantry and with concentrated charge attacks and possibly a +3 to damage buff take down warnouns.

[Jake the Dog]

They shouldn't be lose buttons, either, which is what at least some of them are. People keep posting like balance implies that Colossals be overcosted, rather than costed appropriately. PP "doing their homework" (I dislike this analogy, since balance is incredibly hard to achieve, and I am very understanding of PP failing in some of their initial attempts) would suggest that the colossals are worth their price tag, and some of them are not. Taking Conquest as an example, he's certainly not worth more than 18 points, and being even a single point over your true value is NOT balance, just as being a point under isn't.

I think Conquest is worth 19 points and is costed appropriately. It is in almost all situations (ARM 21 or less) better than a Behemoth in Melee damage, has reach and Sweep. In Range, I think they're comparable (Hat Gun and the Linked Mini-guns are comparable to 2 Bombards with Sub-Cortex benefits). I think Behemoth is a tad undercosted (by 5.-1 point, not sure). Given the other Colossal benefits (Pathfinder, more health, additional STR for powerful Weapon/Head Locks, base size that can hide more Mechaniks to heal it, etc.) make his extra cost seem fair when compared to the Behemoth.

[MathPasta]

Sweep is a joke with its mat 6 and focus point you have to pay to use it.

Seriously? Why aren't power attacks free? I would use them allot more often (Leading to much more interesting games) If they didn't cost more then they are worth.

[Mercykiller]

You are, quite literally, one of only a handful of people to call the Behemoth 'undercosted.' In fact I'd go so far as to say that when compared to the Deathjack it is far from undercosted I don't think the Conquest is a power piece by any means, but I don't think it's an "ILOSE" button either.

Can we please get back to discussing actual tactics instead of complaining about it? There are plenty of threads for non-contributing rants about the uselessness of pieces (and nothing forbids anyone making another lol). This thread is for tactics and uses, not shuffling our feet in the dirt while we mutter about how much our parents, er, Privateer hates us

[Jake the Dog]

You are, quite literally, one of only a handful of people to call the Behemoth 'undercosted.' In fact I'd go so far as to say that when compared to the Deathjack it is far from undercosted I don't think the Conquest is a power piece by any means, but I don't think it's an "ILOSE" button either.

Can we please get back to discussing actual tactics instead of complaining about it? There are plenty of threads for non-contributing rants about the uselessness of pieces (and nothing forbids anyone making another lol). This thread is for tactics and uses, not shuffling our feet in the dirt while we mutter about how much our parents, er, Privateer hates us

Comparing stuff to Cryx only ends in disappointment, a lesson every non-Cryx player should learn (a bit of hyperbole, but you get my point). A.K.A. Deathjack is too good for his cost, no joke.

And I second the motion to get back on topic.

I think the Linked Guns are undervalued. Handgun AoE 3 are useful in practically every game, even if just to take random potshots at Solos/etc. Blast 6 templates are good anti-high Def tools. Blast 6 still kill Arm 12 Targets like a third of the time. Like someone said before, drop them in pairs, stacking on top of each other.

[MathPasta]

Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say.

But this thread was specifically against it so I understand.

[mcdermott]

Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say.

But this thread was specifically against it so I understand.

On the Khador forum you should learn that it's more like the squeaky wheel gets greased. Learn from the experiences of Scowling Koldun.

[Mercykiller]

Thank you, MP

And Jake, I know comparing to Cryx brings the Cry But I had to point out that Big B is actually a little overcosted compared to the "Big 4" character jacks and what they can all do. Yes, he's better than a Juggy taped together with a Berzerker, but the Avatar/Thunderhead/DJ is better with in-faction buffs etc. I suppose it comes down to those 4 have always been compared to each other in a vacuum, and when you take away the vacuum it gets worse lol. So hearing it called undercosted made the old eyebrows rise up.

As for the POW 12s, I'm hoping eventually we can get a caster with more ranged buffs. Still, I can't wait to have Conquest on Butcher1's feat turn laying down potentially 5 templates of all boostage.

One last thing I will say, and I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed it out, but since you can shoot your own stuff in the back a sacrificial Mechanik or anything else running ahead can help you fish for that critical devastation against enemy forces, even the blast-immune ones. It's not ideal, but it is a tactic to keep in mind if your opponent thinks he's immune to the big gun

[John of Arc]

On the Khador forum you should learn that it's more like the squeaky wheel gets greased. Learn from the experiences of Scowling Koldun.

It's eerily similar, isn't it?

[MathPasta]

Who is Scowling Koldun? So hes some complainy guy?

Oh god! Im have become what I hate! Annoying whiners that complain based around their own view of things!

[Jake the Dog]

Thank you, MP

And Jake, I know comparing to Cryx brings the Cry But I had to point out that Big B is actually a little overcosted compared to the "Big 4" character jacks and what they can all do. Yes, he's better than a Juggy taped together with a Berzerker, but the Avatar/Thunderhead/DJ is better with in-faction buffs etc. I suppose it comes down to those 4 have always been compared to each other in a vacuum, and when you take away the vacuum it gets worse lol. So hearing it called undercosted made the old eyebrows rise up.

As for the POW 12s, I'm hoping eventually we can get a caster with more ranged buffs. Still, I can't wait to have Conquest on Butcher1's feat turn laying down potentially 5 templates of all boostage.

One last thing I will say, and I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed it out, but since you can shoot your own stuff in the back a sacrificial Mechanik or anything else running ahead can help you fish for that critical devastation against enemy forces, even the blast-immune ones. It's not ideal, but it is a tactic to keep in mind if your opponent thinks he's immune to the big gun

Oh, a Khador version of Madhammer would be pretty rad. Khador lays templates like no other Faction. Just imagine his feat on Khador...Explosivo for easy Magical Bombards...oh sweet Jesus...

[mcdermott]

I would actually love like an epic harkeveich whose feat turn makes AOE's do full damage in the whole radius.

Edited to be on topic.

Haven't even proxied this guy yet but my initial impulse is that he's a melee beatstick, not so much a shooter...intended to work like harkevich is supposed to, shoot while advancing into melee.

[quindraco]

I think Conquest is worth 19 points and is costed appropriately. It is in almost all situations (ARM 21 or less) better than a Behemoth in Melee damage, has reach and Sweep. In Range, I think they're comparable (Hat Gun and the Linked Mini-guns are comparable to 2 Bombards with Sub-Cortex benefits). I think Behemoth is a tad undercosted (by 5.-1 point, not sure). Given the other Colossal benefits (Pathfinder, more health, additional STR for powerful Weapon/Head Locks, base size that can hide more Mechaniks to heal it, etc.) make his extra cost seem fair when compared to the Behemoth.

1) The majority opinion is that Behemoth is roughly a half point overpriced (that is, his true worth is 12.5) and that PP rounded up. You're entitled to your opinion and it's difficult to gather hard objective data, but that's the majority opinion.
2) It's important when doing a straight comparison to account for what else you could spend the points on - Conquest would have to be at least 5 points overcosted, even by your own accounting, for him to be in *direct* competition with Behemoth - instead, he's in competition with Behemoth and some infantry (or Behemoth and a Berserker, of course).
3) It's also important, as always, to consider the actual warcasters that exist - for example, they're in competition for Strakhov's love, but not Haley's.
4) Black Ivan and some other warjacks are also in competition, potentially, depending on the caster we're discussing.

I just can't come up with a list in which I wouldn't rather drop Conquest for something else at 50 points and less (I haven't tried making 75 point lists), outside of tiers which bar the models I'd rather have.

[Mercykiller]

Yeah I do think Harky's stock rises with this guy. Talk about a jack that hungrily absorbs all the Harkevich has to offer! The more I look at Conquest the more I'm convinced that they listened to their player base and did a battle report with a caster that syncs well with a new jack (as opposed to completely weird non-competitive lists lol).

[John of Arc]

Oh, a Khador version of Madhammer would be pretty rad. Khador lays templates like no other Faction. Just imagine his feat on Khador...Explosivo for easy Magical Bombards...oh sweet Jesus...

Or a solo like the Trencher Master Gunner, or MacDougal? That would be so freaking sweet. I would pay a lot for something that had "For one round, whenever target model makes an AoE ranged attack, instead of dealing normal damage, all models under the template take a damage roll equal to the POW of the weapon". I just think it'd be cool if our jacks, who rely on heavily on blasts to clear infantry, didn't require infantry support to kill 12/15 weapon masters and blast immune infantry. I'm not saying it would or wouldn't be overpowered, but I want it :P barring that, any form of blast love like Mercenaries have would make me really happy.

[x3tsniper]

Scowling Koldun get a temp ban? Oo

I got a temp ban, for being argumentative in a non serious way in the rules forum two years ago. Oo Double infraction from the same thread the day after the posts were made. I cried inside. =/

Mmm, was it a perm ban? Last activity of three months ago. Oo

[KhaosSpectyr]

I think the Linked Guns are undervalued... Blast 6 still kill Arm 12 Targets like a third of the time.

actually your underselling it even lol
you have a 58% chance to roll a 7 or higher on two dice, so the blast 6 will kill arm 12 almost 2/3 of the time

[Marth]

While that is true, but frontline Infantry making it's way to your Colossus tends to be Arm 13 at the least (WGI), I'd rather think about 14+. Still, they're there, and you should not ignore them, but their use is not as easy as one might think.

[plastichero]

What are people's feelings of the MOW shielding the Conquest? They would also sink up nicely with the the Mech with the UA. Plus the shield wall of arm 21 and 8 damage boxes makes them a nice roadblock to the Conquest.

T.

[PG_LunarSol]

What are people's feelings of the MOW shielding the Conquest? They would also sink up nicely with the the Mech with the UA. Plus the shield wall of arm 21 and 8 damage boxes makes them a nice roadblock to the Conquest.

T.

I think it runs into the problem of stacking weaknesses. One of the great strengths of IF infantry shielding Behemoth is that whatever you send for the Behemoth usually struggles with the infantry, and whatever you send for the infantry struggles against the Behemoth.

[epyonliu]

actually your underselling it even lol
you have a 58% chance to roll a 7 or higher on two dice, so the blast 6 will kill arm 12 almost 2/3 of the time

Say against bane thralls, you have 1/6 of the chance to kill an incoming one. If you overlap two templates, it's gonna be 11/36, or 30% to kill. Seems not bad at all while for every 3 bane thralls you can stop one?

Against ARM 12 target, a single template will kill it at a chance of 58% while double templates overlapping with each other will kill at a chance of 82.3%.
Against ARM 15 (bane thralls) target, a single template will kill at a chance of 16.7% while double templates overlapping with each other will kill at a chance of 30.5%, roughly 1/3. This odds I think is quite nice. Of course there are other killers with even higher ARM, like Errants, bane knights and stuff with Defenders Ward etc but at least we have this defensive mechanism against quite a lot of weapon master infantry units.

Here is an example of how much ground double placed templates can cover against non-reach infantry:

There is only a small portion of the front arc not protected by the templates. Models coming at the extreme angle from either side will be able to make it to Conquest without entering the templates, assuming they are not in your back arc when activates Also you can place the two sets of templates further from each other if there is no infantry model in the middle line of the conquest's front arc, meaning no infantry model can charge into that small gap between two sets of templates.

I don't think Creeping Barrage templates can be placed under Conquest itself, if it says "the templates must be completely within the weapon's range", which I believe is 0" - 12". However if it can do that, then the two sets of templates are enough to cover almost every incoming directions from front.


Again I think using Creeping Barrages to cover your advancing infantry is more rewarding, as discussed above, than protecting Conquest himself. And I don't think "using light infantry to screening colossals" is stupid. They are like heavy tanks anchoring your army, providing support and hammer your opponent when time is right. However IMO they are not necessarily assault machine nor vanguard. Pushing your complete forces forward and applying pressure to your enemy is more like the way I feel comfortable with conquest based army~