What would happen if you could pre-measure?

[Anurien]

real wrath of God type stuff.
Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
The dead rising from the grave!
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Or did anyone say that already?

[blakeh1]

I'm in the camp of not liking pre-measuring.

Its adds more complexity to the game and if your not careful can sometime be game changing. (You think so and so is within charge/shooting range. YOu risk it and find out they were not, now the tide has turned).

People would plan much differently if they could precisely pre-measure and I think that takes some of the fun out of it.

[rwould]

Pre-measuring makes for much better games in my experience. Ignoring any other factors it helps avoid arguments as things can be defined.

As for which is better in terms of a tactical game I would go for pre-measuring as all decisions are exactly determined by the player. Irrelevant of how good you are no player gets every distance exactly correct to the mm. Just look at the battle reports for the top tables and how often charges are out by a very small amount.

And as for the accuracy of guessing in terms of charging then as it is an arbitrary amount it has no bearing on reality and how warfare takes place. The charge is the last part of the movement to give you momentum when you hit the enemy force. How it historically happened was as the last part of the movement to engage otherwise the troops would be exhausted by the time they hit. And if you really want realism how come so little stuff counter charges? We are playing a set of rules. They'll never achieve full realism and guess ranging has nothing to do with realism, especially as it is the warlock/caster making the decision and not the individual trooper who will have practised and trained (assuming a marksman or something similar).

However WM/H with the timed aspects of the turns and the forced nature of play is the game that most closely suits guessing out of everything I've played. Pre-measuring slows games down and does change the way you play and with the current play style and tournament play of WM/H it plays well with guessing so why change it?

[quindraco]

I'm in the camp of not liking pre-measuring.

Its adds more complexity to the game and if your not careful can sometime be game changing. (You think so and so is within charge/shooting range. YOu risk it and find out they were not, now the tide has turned).

People would plan much differently if they could precisely pre-measure and I think that takes some of the fun out of it.

I flatly disagree; I think when that happens both my opponent's and my fun is ruined, since we both know what happened to him wasn't really due to the tactical acumen or lack thereof of either of us, but rather a simple physical failure of accurate eyeballing, and both me and most of my opponents are interested in a purely mental faceoff, with (of course) dice to add a random element.

[Bartacus]

I'd at least be interested in trying the game with pre-measuring to see what impact it had, although perhaps limiting the pre-measurement to checking whether a possible target is in charge or shooting range (to stop the precise movement to extreme firing range that someone sensibly referred to above).

I'm with quindraco in that I don't like my game being potentially decided by that charge which failed by a matter of mm's. I play Flames of War and pre-measuring really doesn't impact on play-time there in my opinion.

[A8mew]

If you can guess distances in cms but not in inches, you have to memorize a conversion table.

Can you quickly convert 14 inches into centimeters?
How about 45 cm in inches?

Considering said conversion table is 2.54cm:1", its not exactly difficult.

Not to mention you never need to do a quick conversion anyway. It could just be me, but when I'm going for an eCaine assassination run, I do not say "Okay, I got line of sight here, and I'm 18.5" away, now how long is SPD 7+RNG 12... 19", great, I can kill them". Its simply "Yeah, that looks to be in range".

If you use the first method yet regard converting inches into centimeters as a massive hurdle that severely impacts your ability to compete with your opponent, you are part of a very select group capable of flawlessly eyeballing distances and quickly performing mental calculations yet somehow stumble with multiplying numbers by 2.5. It'd be an enviable skill to have but I sincerely doubt very many peoples minds work that way. For completions sake: Its 35cm and 18", approximately, with roughly a quarter cm added and about a tenth of an inch subtracted.

[Zwaggs33]

I flatly disagree; I think when that happens both my opponent's and my fun is ruined, since we both know what happened to him wasn't really due to the tactical acumen or lack thereof of either of us, but rather a simple physical failure of accurate eyeballing, and both me and most of my opponents are interested in a purely mental faceoff, with (of course) dice to add a random element.

How is failing to gauge distance not a failure of tactical acumen? If you were able to place your model in such a way that he was out of range but close enough to make it seem as though he was, and your opponent fell for it, you were just rewarded for your placement with his failed charge. And it should feel more rewarding because you didn't measure everything out to make sure it didn't happen. I say keep things the way they are.

[rwould]

How is failing to gauge distance not a failure of tactical acumen? If you were able to place your model in such a way that he was out of range but close enough to make it seem as though he was, and your opponent fell for it, you were just rewarded for your placement with his failed charge. And it should feel more rewarding because you didn't measure everything out to make sure it didn't happen. I say keep things the way they are.

So are you saying that you've predicted and placed everything precisely correct? And if you've been a mm out then it is your tactical acumen that has cost you the game? What utter nonsense, that has got nothing to do with tactics.

The tactics part of it is not relying 100% on your guessing the ranges so that if you've got it wrong it does not come back to bite you too much, but not the actual gauging of very tight distances.

[quindraco]

How is failing to gauge distance not a failure of tactical acumen? If you were able to place your model in such a way that he was out of range but close enough to make it seem as though he was, and your opponent fell for it, you were just rewarded for your placement with his failed charge. And it should feel more rewarding because you didn't measure everything out to make sure it didn't happen. I say keep things the way they are.

When I say tactical acumen, I refer strictly to making decisions about where you want your models to go, what you want them to do, etc. I do not in any way regard ability to eyeball distances as being part of this category; in the game as we currently play it it's certainly a tactically useful ability, but so is punching your opponent in the groin while they're planning out their next move, and the latter is certainly frowned upon. Since we're drawing a line between which tactically useful abilities to emphasize and which to de-emphasize, I would rather see strictly mental abilities focused on, and physical abilities put aside.

[DaPreacherMan43]

Well, Im going to chime in on pre-measuring because of my background in games before i joined the WMH group.

I came out of a game called Mage knight, where anything could be measured anytime by any player. So how did it affect the game?
Most measuring was done by me during the other players turn, so, this factor accomplished the following:
1) i stayed involved during my opponents turn,
2) I knew what my ranges were before i moved (saving me time)
3) We both agreed on the measurements before an actoin was taken (less argurment - saving time)

As far as the strategy point that was made, I believe it does make you better as a strategist, because you know before you move a piece if it will accomplish your objectives.

Next, consider this about ' battlefield perspective'
Am I as a player acting as a commander or an individual combatant? I would have you consider that as a player, that you are both. Does a combatant have the ability to know what he can do, apart from the commander, ie finding range? - Yes.
Does the battlefield commander's skill play apart in the actions of a combatant? Yes - but less of an effect as the skill of the soldier, for the soldier makes his actions based upon his persepctive. Do I as a legion archer fire just because lylyth says so, or because i think i can hit the target? I would say because i can hit it, more than 'just following orders.'
This is my philosophical argument vs fluff for the premeasurement.

What adverse affects did pre-measuring create?
Not many, but one that stands out was what i call the tactic of first strike. I can move 8, range of 14 = threat of 22" you can move 6 range of 6 = threat of 12", I have the best chance at first strike, a good chance of a 2nd attack, and can possibly eliminate your piece before its a threat. (this is MK not WMH), however, there are some units that this would and does apply to in WMH.

Here is my counter to pre-measure in the WMH world. The game is about agression, and premeasuring changes the game to more a micro-managed feel, as opposed to trying something stupendous, only to have it fail (like an eSorscha assination run).

I love premeasuring, i really do, but i have found that by measuring my control area, in relation to terrain and opponent position, that I can estimate my threat ranges very well, and other than that, with the exception of the 5 focus fury casters, you should be able to measure from your caster to a point on the board, or a friendly fig, and then translate that 'guestimate' to another piece: Like this:

Tree --- 8" ---- Caster --- 6" --- Beast.
Distance between beast and tree is 14"

Carnivean assault = 6 + 3(charge) + 10 spray = 19"
I should be able to hit an enemy 5" behind the tree, meaning that i only need to estimate 5" not 19"

But thinking through the problem, premeasuring is not that big of an issue in WMH, to my estimation.

Based on the fact that Partial Pre-measuring (control area) should provide the tools for getting very accurate in our guestimations.

[DaPreacherMan43]

addendum: to help with learning how to guestimate, write down your threat ranges on your card sleeves as you begin the game.

[Asagauth]

i dont know i dont like pre mesure, i bet that no everyone will play like you got a pair if beforehand you know you can fail a charge by a few inches, then you better move your miniature a little back because you know if your model advance then your enemy who already knows you will be in his range can charge your model first. then this game chages to a Cat chasing a mouse game.

[HeadHunter]

But the skills actual soliders have to deal with that are, I would imagine, completely different from being able to be sure with the naked eye of the difference between 13 and a half inches and 14 and a half inches.

See, that's what I'm trying to say - you're speaking based on what you "imagine", whereas Tossy and I are relating our actual military experience and its relevance to the game. No, it's not directly transferrable, but I've found over the years that civilians have exaggerated notions when it comes to such things, and trying to base reasonable comparisons on that doesn't tend to go well.

[HeadHunter]

In actual warfare you don't have full information of the enemy units, you have lossy communication channels and battles are rarely ever balanced. But would it make a better game if we tried to emulate those aspects?

As for the "lossy communication channels", that and other aspects of warfare are factored into the command and morale mechanics. The "fog of war" does exist in some games - and even, to some extent, in tabletop games like Warmachine, where troops can operate under stealth and enter from unexpected places.

But just because some other real aspects of warfare wouldn't improve the game, is no reason to remove something that doesn't hinder the game in favor of something that would cause people to handle their tape measure far more often than their models. A good commander needs certain skills - one of those is knowing the capabilities of one's troops, including the range of their weapons. If you can't eyeball it and don't want to develop that ability for whatever reason, your best hope is to use models like Reinholdt with Spyglass.

[Zwaggs33]

I agree with the argument that putting in premeasure would take out the aggresive, play like you got a pair, mentality this game is trying to achieve. Premeasuring exists in other games and if thats what you want then perhaps go play those games. This game doesn't have premeasure and if you're fine with that, then play this game. I hope that there will not be any changes of the premeasurement rules.

[PG_jamano]

I agree with the argument that putting in premeasure would take out the aggresive, play like you got a pair, mentality this game is trying to achieve. Premeasuring exists in other games and if thats what you want then perhaps go play those games. This game doesn't have premeasure and if you're fine with that, then play this game. I hope that there will not be any changes of the premeasurement rules.

Do you think they should remove all premeasuring to make the game more aggressive? As others have said, you can use your control area + geometry to be fairly accurate with your measuring.

[Jakal]

But just because some other real aspects of warfare wouldn't improve the game, is no reason to remove something that doesn't hinder the game in favor of something that would cause people to handle their tape measure far more often than their models. A good commander needs certain skills - one of those is knowing the capabilities of one's troops, including the range of their weapons. If you can't eyeball it and don't want to develop that ability for whatever reason, your best hope is to use models like Reinholdt with Spyglass.

That's a fair enough position to have, but it's based on what's best for the game, rather than what's most like real warfare. If that's the argument we're having then my opinion has just as much validity as yours.

[TheButchersHound]

What would happen? I would not die as often to failed Assassination runs.

I think it may slow the game down. Everyone would just measure the exact distance where the enemy can't charge them or something like that. Currently there is more thinking involved.

addendum: to help with learning how to guestimate, write down your threat ranges on your card sleeves as you begin the game.

Sometimes when bored, I pull out my tape-measure a certain length without looking and try to guess the range. I think it rather helped me.

[DaPreacherMan43]

Yes, but true guestimation is not the same as control area + geometry.

We CAN pre measure one thing, control area. Name another game that has specific premeasure stats that are stated to commanding characters?

If you look at it this way, the focus fury stat is telling you what you can premeasure so, there should not be any true guesstimating going on int the Ctrl area. If you measure from tol area from your edge to opponents edge (vertically) you should be able to get really close to knowing what a fig can do, without premeasureing.

The guesswork in WMh is a learned skill, not a freebie

Again, how I hate lobbying against premeasuring because I like it. I just don't think it's necessary to WMD.