Please clear up a few things about vlad 3

[wargolem]

1) Infernal Machine on battle college helped a bit but what is the + to move and MAT on it?

2) How will fenris berserk attacks work with sidestep? Since both say "immediately after" we get to choose to make berserk attacks before or after his first initial and then sidestep or vice versus?

3) Why in the world would anyone think that Vlad would not be able to assassinate? Sure lower pow, but most warlocks and warcasters will fall over after 2-3 boosted shots from POW 13 remember?

4) Since Vlad himself has blood quenched that does mean the mount attacks will trigger the +1 ARM & STR correct?

5)brutal charge is like on strakov and only gives +2 damage correct?

6) Why is everyone focused on Drago when infernal machine on a spriggan (lance remember?) would seem to be so much better than drago.... yes I know Drago gets free HOF with vlad....

7) Why does this and the epic version of vlad not have warjack bond rule like eSorcha and eIrusk where you could give drago or bonded jack 4 focus?

Yeah a lot of questions but that is whats on my mind.

[Nebo]

1) Two.
2) Same way it works with eButcher. You resolve effects on the original attack before you resolve new attacks.
3) Because people on these forums generally don't understand the game very well.
4) No, the mount uses only POW, not P+S.
5) Yes.
6) You just answered your own question.
7) Because PP decided not to design him that way, evidently.

[wargolem]

1) Two.
2) Same way it works with eButcher. You resolve effects on the original attack before you resolve new attacks.
4) No, the mount uses only POW, not P+S.

on these two I have to explain it better I guess.

2. Sidestep and berserk will both trigger on killing a model with first initial. As active player you decide which goes on the proverbial "stack" first meaning you could move the 2" from sidestep and then choose to take your berserk attack or vice versa from the way I am reading them.

4. I am not saying that mount will benefit from the + to str only that it should trigger you getting another +1 STR & ARM if the impact attack kills something.

Thanks for the answers all the same though.



ALSO I just had an *Idea* What if the empress is so impressed with vlad she offers to have Drago's cortex implanted in a spriggan chasis (since a cavalry caster should have a jack with a lance giving us our first epic jack? hehe just wondering.

[DemonCalibre]

Berserk + Sidestep works like this.

Charge in, hit with your initial, Side Step after that attack is resolved, your Berserk attack comes, this does not proc a side step as it is not initial, you Berserk chain till you miss.

Then you swing your second initial(presuming Fenris), You side step, then resolve your berserk attack.

It's handled in the timing appendix.

[rivenwyrm]

4. I am not saying that mount will benefit from the + to str only that it should trigger you getting another +1 STR & ARM if the impact attack kills something.

Yes, killing something with an impact attack or mount attack will give you the Blood Quenched effect.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Also I would think this Vlad would like Behemoth and Konquest more because of the number of initial attacks.

[x3tsniper]

I think he would love a reach jack, but I don't think that Conquest is that jack. At the same time, no jack is going to keep up with his force, which means you can either take a devastator and shove it down their throat, or take a jack with a ranged attack.

[Trihnicus]

Number of Initial Melee attacks is the key phrase that you are looking at. More or less every Khador Warjack comes out even given those circumstances. Their benefits upon being delivered are up for debate.

And just because - Being Unable to assassinate differentiated from no longer an assassin. Almost every warcaster CAN kill another warcaster. 3Vlad does not appear any better or worse at it than any other Warcaster but a Def stacking caster or a Camping Arm one or... all going to give him more issues than he would previously have had. I would have put him up there in the murder Tier along with Kromac and Estryker / a number of others before but those extra few points of power in less than ideal circumstance are going to wind up causing a respectably higher proportion of failed runs. He most certainly can still do it and in some circumstances that his predecessors would not have been capable of the same but the requirements are tighter.

After some thought though this is decidedly for the best. With his added threat range and toys if he still had the sheer penchant for murder he would be overwhelmingly broken.

[x3tsniper]

Number of Initial Melee attacks is the key phrase that you are looking at. More or less every Khador Warjack comes out even given those circumstances. Their benefits upon being delivered are up for debate. Actually there is a Warjack that stands above the rest. Flamethrower is an initial attack and gunfighter makes it a melee one. Torch beats out Behemoth and conquest for farthest distance traveled under feat. Relentless Charge and Smoke bombs seem to harmonize oddly well with his concept too. Maybe Vlad needs to steal Torch from Strakhov?

Gunfighter does not make the spray eligible for a sidestep. It is still a ranged attack.

[Kommissar Golovko]

No, "number of initial melee attacks" is not the key as in the latest errata, Sidestep says nothing about melee. It only says "When this model hits an enemy model with an initial attack or a special attack that is not a power attack, it can advance up to 2˝ after the attack is resolved". Which is why I think Behemoth is the better jack for Vlad. With Spd 6, I think it can just almost stay with Vlad3.

[Josh-o-Lantern]

I don't have a book handy: What is an Impact Attack? does it count as a special attack or powere attack? Can you sidestep off it? If yes, can you Side Step before finishing you charge move for odd angle Charge runs?

[Kommissar Golovko]

You can't Sidestep off Impact attacks. They are not initial attacks nor special attacks that are not power attacks.

[wargolem]

Berserk + Sidestep works like this.

Charge in, hit with your initial, Side Step after that attack is resolved, your Berserk attack comes, this does not proc a side step as it is not initial, you Berserk chain till you miss.

Then you swing your second initial(presuming Fenris), You side step, then resolve your berserk attack.

It's handled in the timing appendix.

Maybe I am missing something.... let me try to explain one more time. Fenris berserk and all other berserk in this game says:

"When this model destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attack against another model in melee range."

and sidestep says:

"When this model hits an enemy model with an initial attack or a special attack that is not a power attack, it can advance up to 2˝ after the attack is resolved."

Let me say this, I understand what you are saying and agree that is one viable option, but you could also choose to berserk THEN take the 2" advance since as soon as you resolve the first initial, more than likely fenris will have killed his target and if there is something else in melee range you COULD choose to take the berserk attack and THEN take the 2" move........ or he could sidestep and then take the berserk attack like you said.

correct?

[PG_LunarSol]

Let me say this, I understand what you are saying and agree that is one viable option, but you could also choose to berserk THEN take the 2" advance since as soon as you resolve the first initial, more than likely fenris will have killed his target and if there is something else in melee range you COULD choose to take the berserk attack and THEN take the 2" move........ or he could sidestep and then take the berserk attack like you said.

No. If you go to the rules that specify the specific activation sequences in the game, there's a little rule that states that any effects that trigger additional effects must resolve after any effects that do not. That means Berserk has to trigger after Side Step and as soon as you make a Berserk attack, you've chosen whether or not to make the Side Step movement.

Really, the nice thing with Drago is that Vlad doesn't have to give him any focus at all. He'll run just fine without focus to keep up as well as he can and any focus for side stepping is spent trying to kill what you want to kill. Beast and the Spriggan both make a case though. Beast's imprint gives you a lot of certainty on your side stepping and running for free helps him keep up with Vlad without draining him early on. The Spriggan has bulldoze, which makes for some interesting Side step applications all around. Obviously both have reach. One thing super fun with Drago though is side stepping around something he won't kill and getting a free thresher on whatever you want to side step into.

[John of Arc]

He can assassinate other casters, sure. He's just not built for it. I've assassinated people with Zerkova and Haley before, even, but I wouldn't call them assassins. Vlad3 is certainly well above average in the assassination category, he's just not dedicated to it like Caine and Sloan.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Also I would think this Vlad would like Behemoth and Konquest more because of the number of initial attacks.

Conquest can not advance outside of normal movement, so the sidestep portion of the feat does nothing.

The feat is going to be amazing for Fenris (charge, hit, kill, sidestep, berserker (...) miss, hit (2nd initial), kill, sidestep, berserk (...)

It's going to be awesome for Uhlans: Charge, kill, sidestep out of melee, sprint to +10" away.

It's going to be handy for some jacks: Drago charges a heavy, hits, side steps to get more infantry in his melee range, attacks the same heavy again, sidesteps to engage more infantry (disengaging the heavy) and takes a blood bath attacks against all the infantry.

If you can take side step on ranged initials (which I'd have to check the erata on to believe) Behemoth will love him. Speed 6 with an extra 4" of movement (especially if sidestep is on 'hit' not 'directly hit') but I would take that one with a grain of salt the size of Korsk for now.

-Rick

[wargolem]

so where is the sprint for the uhlans coming from after sidestep? They are not light calvary.

[PG_LunarSol]

The best thing about Fenris is he can Silence his own Berserk chain, so you can make sure you don't kill EVERYTHING in his melee range before getting a chance to sidestep again.

[PG_LunarSol]

so where is the sprint for the uhlans coming from after sidestep? They are not light calvary.

It's part of the feat. Cav gets Side Step and Sprint.

[Kommissar Golovko]

so where is the sprint for the uhlans coming from after sidestep? They are not light calvary.

From the feat. Vlad3 gives Sidestep and Sprint.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Conquest can not advance outside of normal movement, so the sidestep portion of the feat does nothing.

-Rick

I understand that Colossals cannot be moved outside of their own activation not movement. Since Sidestep happens during the Kolossal's activation, it should work.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/...als-first.html says it can advance during its activation unless it is wrong?

The quote I gave regarding Sidestep came from the January 2012 Errata. So unless it has been changed to melee only, the feat would love Behemoth.

[owniscool1993]

The best thing about Fenris is he can Silence his own Berserk chain, so you can make sure you don't kill EVERYTHING in his melee range before getting a chance to sidestep again.

the one problem with that is that silence immediately ends your activation

[JBRocky]

Cygnar player who loves Cavalry and plays Kraye alot. Just wanted to say grats on Vlad3 he should do quite well and make a terrible mess out of things. Really looking forward to watching how your Battle Engine works with him since it is Cavalry.

[PG_LunarSol]

the one problem with that is that silence immediately ends your activation

Why is that. The rule doesn't imply that at all.

[Trihnicus]

Why would Battle engine do anything It has no initial melee attacks... It may make charge attacks with it's mount statline but the word initial was never mentioned.... as far as the melee only thing Word is that he had a specific wording change for his rule that listed melee only or yes Big B and Gun Carriage would both be capable of interesting shenanigans.

Silence immediately ends a Doom Reavers activation because they only have 1 Initial attack. I think that is causing the problem here. Fenris has two so he can choose to end one attack chain and then continue on with his second as normal.

[Binz]

No, "number of initial melee attacks" is not the key as in the latest errata, Sidestep says nothing about melee. It only says "When this model hits an enemy model with an initial attack or a special attack that is not a power attack, it can advance up to 2˝ after the attack is resolved". Which is why I think Behemoth is the better jack for Vlad. With Spd 6, I think it can just almost stay with Vlad3.

so what you are saying, is:

Behemoth fires Bombard A - hits - side steps 2"
Behemoth fires Bombard B - hits - side steps 2" into melee
Behemoth punches with Fist A - hits - side steps 2" into melee
Behemoth punches with Fist B - hits - side steps 2" into enemy Warcaster
Behemoth buys as much attacks as he can

Because that would be cool.

[JacobtheAussie]

the one problem with that is that silence immediately ends your activation

Silence only says you don't have to make Berserk attacks.
Abilities similar like the Legion Warspears do end your activation.

Fenris can decide to stop and then make the 2nd initial if he wants to

[sliganian]

7) Why does this and the epic version of vlad not have warjack bond rule like eSorcha and eIrusk where you could give drago or bonded jack 4 focus?

Please tell me that you are NOT doing this '4 FOCUS' thing in a regular pick-up or non-Campaign game....

[wargolem]

Please tell me that you are NOT doing this '4 FOCUS' thing in a regular pick-up or non-Campaign game....

4focus on bonded jacks from Esorcha and eirusk in tourney and anytime you play them. Why not?

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I understand that Colossals cannot be moved outside of their own activation not movement. Since Sidestep happens during the Kolossal's activation, it should work.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/...als-first.html says it can advance during its activation unless it is wrong?

The quote I gave regarding Sidestep came from the January 2012 Errata. So unless it has been changed to melee only, the feat would love Behemoth.

I'll see your 3rd party pre-release paraphrasing and raise you the actual rules from Privateer Press:

Colossal Movement
A colossal can only advance during its normal movement and cannot be placed

Sidestep is outside of normal movement, it will have no effect on Colossals. Only +Move and +SPD will affect them.

-Rick

[sliganian]

4focus on bonded jacks from Esorcha and eirusk in tourney and anytime you play them. Why not?

Well, because in the Main rules on Bonding it seems to imply the '4 FOCUS' benefit is only for league and campaign play, not 'one-off'. Don't do Tournaments so I wasn't aware that they allowed it there.

[PG_SMDVogrin]

Well, because in the Main rules on Bonding it seems to imply the '4 FOCUS' benefit is only for league and campaign play, not 'one-off'. Don't do Tournaments so I wasn't aware that they allowed it there.

No, the ability to allocate one extra focus is a basic part of being bonded - and since some epic casters can have bonds without being used in league or campaign play, they can allocate extra focus to those jacks.

[Kommissar Golovko]

so what you are saying, is:

Behemoth fires Bombard A - hits - side steps 2"
Behemoth fires Bombard B - hits - side steps 2" into melee
Behemoth punches with Fist A - hits - side steps 2" into melee
Behemoth punches with Fist B - hits - side steps 2" into enemy Warcaster
Behemoth buys as much attacks as he can

Because that would be cool.

Yep unless they errata Sidestep to melee only. Also, bombards just need to hit and not directly hit so it's just important to clip a model under the AoE and it should be able to move again but if you want to be sure, give it focus to directly hit a model.

[Kommissar Golovko]

I'll see your 3rd party pre-release paraphrasing and raise you the actual rules from Privateer Press:



Sidestep is outside of normal movement, it will have no effect on Colossals. Only +Move and +SPD will affect them.

-Rick

Ah "normal" is a very important term to omit then. Sidestep won't work then.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Simple way to work out berserk and side step is that side step triggers on a hit and berserk triggers on a destroy. Hit happens first, which makes this case easy. eButcher can definitely move before his berserk attack.

Cheers,
Dave

[Marth]

Butcher Xp is a special case, because of the Homicidal Maniac rule.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

For Butcher, I was trying to point out that Butcher can move then attack because of a special rules interaction. Berserk and side step are much simplier though since one triggers on a hit and the other triggers on a destroy...

Cheers,
Dave

[OrsusSmash]

Yep unless they errata Sidestep to melee only. Also, bombards just need to hit and not directly hit so it's just important to clip a model under the AoE and it should be able to move again but if you want to be sure, give it focus to directly hit a model.

Just to clarify this, I'm looking at Vlad3's entry in Colossals right now and here's the wording for Side Step:

"When a model with Side Step hits an enemy model with an initial melee attack or a non-power Special Attack, after the attack is resolved it can advance 2". A model with Side Step cannot be targeted by free strikes during this movement."

So two things: 1) no Behemoth Side Step-ing on the guns, and 2) expect yet another Side Step errata sometime in the near future to bring everything in line with this wording.

[pariahboy]

Isn't ths covered in prime mkII? I thought there was a paragraph describing what happens when two effects are triggered by something? Namely that side-step is triggered by a hit, but doesnt go off until after the attack is resolved and Beserk is triggered by a destroyed but doesnt go until after the initial attack is resolved... wholla, two effects from one attack. But the two of them are both resolved before the next initial attack. You get to chose the order.

If someone is going to argue that there is a difference between "after" and "immediately after" then heck Fenris attacks with both his initial attacks, hits both times, beserks both times then moves 4" from two different "after" effects of sidestepping. I am technically still in my activation and it is "after" the trigger so by semantics I can do that.

Who knows, maybe that is legal. But a free 4" of no free strike fenris movement... followed by a sprint... Warcasters beware.

[wargolem]

Isn't ths covered in prime mkII? I thought there was a paragraph describing what happens when two effects are triggered by something? Namely that side-step is triggered by a hit, but doesnt go off until after the attack is resolved and Beserk is triggered by a destroyed but doesnt go until after the initial attack is resolved... wholla, two effects from one attack. But the two of them are both resolved before the next initial attack. You get to chose the order.

If someone is going to argue that there is a difference between "after" and "immediately after" then heck Fenris attacks with both his initial attacks, hits both times, beserks both times then moves 4" from two different "after" effects of sidestepping. I am technically still in my activation and it is "after" the trigger so by semantics I can do that.

Who knows, maybe that is legal. But a free 4" of no free strike fenris movement... followed by a sprint... Warcasters beware.

This is exactly what i thought